metro north railroad

rtrg

New member
a simple question that deserves an accurate and complete answer. thanks in advance. METRO NORTH railroad serves NEW HAVEN CT to NEW YORK CITY terminating at GRAND CENTRAL TERMINAL. AMTRAK shares the rails in the same area starting from BOSTON and terminating at PENN station. the issue is that just south of NEW ROCHELLE NEW YORK looking SOUTH the rails turn LEFT for AMTRAK and continue STRAIGHT for METRO NORTH. why is it that BOTH companies could not use both stations? it seems to me that nothing technically would prevent this. METRO NORTH engines are electric both OVERHEAD and THIRD RAIL. AMTRAK are the same plus both companies could use diesel. electric or diesel in each station. in the past AMTRAK DID use GCT while METRO NORTH did NOT use PENN. is there a technical or financial, or legal reason for this situation. like the long awaited 2nd avenue subway in NYC the EAST SIDE PROJECT will take years to build including the 4 new BRONKS stations. if BOTH trains used BOTH stations the project could probably be negated, or if continued the extra service would help commuters. an explanation of this would be helpful. both services ignored me.
 
Welcome to the forums and to Trainz.

In general I don't know why the management would do something as they did in the New York metro area. It could be that due to the volume of rail traffic in Penn Station was too much to handle the commuter rail as well, therefore, it was easier to split the commuter trains to Grand Central, however, I do know that Amtrak is associated with the North East Corridor, which runs from Boston to Washington DC via Penn Station while Metro North handles the commuter trains out of Grand Central Terminal.

Up here in Boston the arrangement is similar with one exception. Amtrak serves South Station as part of the NEC. The MBTA runs diesel-powered commuter trains on the former BA/NYC to Worcester and on the former Old Colony/NH lines on the South Shore. The MBTA runs all diesel-powered trains out of North Station except for the Down Easter, which is a diesel-powered Amtrak train that runs to New Brunswick, Maine.

With the construction of the new GCT-PENN Station link remove the split? I don't know. Up in Boston they are considering, yet again after a gazillion years, constructing the North-South station tunnel, which was allowed for during the construction of the Big Dig. The tunnel bore is in place, however, the link tracks and ramps have never been constructed.

No on an unrelated topic...

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Why is it that BOTH companies could not use both stations? it seems to me that nothing technically would prevent this. METRO NORTH engines are electric both OVERHEAD and THIRD RAIL.

Some of this traces its history back to the days when the railroads were owned by different private companies. Grand Central was owned by the New York Central Railroad, while Penn Station was owned by the Pennsylvania RR. The two companies were competitors. At some point, the New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad (which had the present-day Northeast Corridor from NYC to Boston) formed a deal with NYCRR to get trackage rights into Grand Central. The NY, NH and H also had a deal with PRR to use the tracks over the Hell Gate Bridge, allowing service from the present-day New Haven Line into Penn Station.

Over time, these original railroads went bankrupt, eventually merged together into Penn Central, which itself went bankrupt, eventually leading to the formations of Conrail, Amtrak and Metro-North.

So let's skip to present day.

Grand Central Terminal is the current terminus for all 3 of Metro North's lines east of the Hudson River -- the Hudson Line (from Poughkeepsie), the Harlem (from Wassaic) and the New Haven (from... you guessed it, New Haven). All of Metro-North's electric-powered trains are capable of running on the under-running third rail into Grand Central. That includes the New Haven Line equipment, which is capable of switching between third rail and overhead catenary.

Until the 1990s, Amtrak service to/from Albany (and from there to points west) also used Grand Central. However, all other Amtrak service uses Penn Station. So if someone needed to change trains in New York City, they'd have to find their own way (walking, taxi, subway, bus) between GCT and Penn Station. With the completion of the Empire Connection in the 1990s, all Amtrak service running on the Hudson Line now splits off just before Spuyten Duyvil station and heads down the west side of Manhattan and into Penn Station. This puts all Amtrak service in one place, making it easier for people who need to transfer trains.

Recently, there have been a few instances where major track work in Penn Station prompted Amtrak to temporarily divert Hudson Line trains back to GCT. Some of the Amtrak locomotives that usually run into Penn Station had to be modified for this purpose. For one thing, Metro-North and GCT use under-running third rail, while Penn Station uses over-running third rail. The voltages are also different. All MNR locomotives have a front escape hatch because 2 of the 4 Park Avenue tunnel tracks have no side clearance in the event of a fire or other emergency that would require the engineer to escape. Amtrak added hatches to some of its units to satisfy this requirement.

So, it's easy to see why Amtrak runs all of its service into Penn Station.

Why doesn't Metro North use both GCT and Penn Station? Well, plans are currently in the works to change that.

Right now, Penn Station is at maximum capacity. The Amtrak-owned station serves not only Amtrak, but also NJTransit service from New Jersey, and it's the main terminal for Metro-North's MTA sister, the Long Island Rail Road. Right now, work is already several years underway to connect LIRR to Grand Central. Sending some LIRR traffic to Grand Central will theoretically free-up some capacity to run some of Metro-North's New Haven Line trains into Penn Station. But even if LIRR started running to GCT tomorrow, there's quite a bit of work to be done (also already underway) before MNR can start running to Penn Station.

For one thing, MNR's overhead catenary uses a different voltage and frequency than Amtrak. All of Amtrak's Acela and Northeast Corridor equipment is capable of switching to the MNR voltage between New Rochelle and New Haven, but MNR's equipment is not capable of switching over to Amtrak's voltage between Penn Station and New Rochelle. Seeing as how brand new MNR rolling stock capable of switching to Amtrak's voltage would likely be a long way into the future, the current plan is to install third rail for MNR to use along the Hell Gate branch into Penn Station.

There is also talk of a future phase where certain Hudson Line trains might use the Empire Connection to serve Penn Station. However, MNR equipment would need to be modified so trains can switch on-the-fly between MNR's under-running third rail to Penn station's over-running third rail. This would likely require a significant gap in third rail coverage in a spot where trains could build-up enough of a running start to "coast" through the gap while the third rail shoes move up or down, and I'm afraid to contemplate the possible results of a malfunction.

Last but not least, the Harlem Line. There is presently no direct connection from the Harlem Line to any trackage that leads into Penn Station. With current trackage, Harlem Line trains would need to make at least 2 reverse moves, whether they were go go via the Hudson Line or the New Haven Line. Either option would make the trip too long to be worth it, while also creating rail traffic complications that would delay other train traffic. There is an abandoned "Port Morris Branch" that would allow Harlem Line trains to switch over to the New Haven Line but the chances of a revival are said to be unlikely. The branch has been abandoned for so long, parts of the ROW have already been taken over by private property owners. Buying back that property (and possibly needing to demolish buildings) would be very expensive, possibly more expensive than any potential benefits of increased ridership. It's also unclear if the new LIRR tracks into GCT would be capable of handling enough traffic to offset the traffic all 3 MNR lines could bring into Penn Station.
 
Great post, pnaw10. Welcome to the forums!

The greater New York City metro region is definitely complex. I read about the Port Morris branch and it's too bad that line was abandoned and wonder if the powers that be are kicking themselves now for doing that. We've had a few such cuts up here in the Boston end of things that are just as cringe worthy.
 
Thanks for the welcome. I've had Trainz for a long time but haven't used it much lately. I've been more into Dovetail's TS, especially since they've added the New Haven and Hudson lines for Metro North, but their last couple of updates have been problematic... RailDriver support seems like it might be getting tanked. Not happy. I found this forum while trying to see if Trainz ever got any new Metro North content. I had the Harlem Line under Trainz Classics... was impressed by the selection of rolling stock, but was left disappointed by the lack of certain details plus the fact they didn't do the entire line. I know there were some user attempts to create the Hudson Line, but I always had trouble getting everything to download and work. But I got an email about the Black Friday deals on Trainz 2019 and see they still embrace RailDriver, so I thought I'd give it another look.

You're right about the NYC area being complex... and what was covered above is just part of it. It's amazing to dig around and read-up on the history of other abandoned lines/branches, and to see how some of these lines are occasionally brought up again as possibilities for restoration. With the pandemic, it seems any expansion idea not already underway is probably going to be shelved for awhile (if not permanently), seeing as how MTA is struggling to sustain current service, let alone any thought of expanding.

There's also the way things are owned and operated... for example, Metro North operates the entire New Haven Line, but the MTA only owns the stations/tracks in New York State, and MTA only pays for about 33% of the costs of new rolling stock dedicated to that line. Connecticut DOT pays for the other 66% of rolling stock, along with all the costs to maintain the tracks and stations within its borders. That's why some of the trains carry MTA branding and some carry CDOT-branding. Interestingly, the arrangement allows for "pool" service of the rolling stock, so it's not uncommon to see a mix of "red stripe" and "blue stripe" Bombardier coaches on the same train on any line. Although the third-rail-only gear that runs on the Harlem and Hudson Lines can't serve the New Haven Line, you can occasionally catch the M8's (which have pantographs) on the Hudson Line, as trainsets are occasionally sent to the Harmon Shops for certain types of maintenance or repairs. Extremely rare, but not completely unheard of, are M8 sightings on the Harlem Line.

Similarly, NJ Transit has a couple of former Erie-Lackawanna lines west of the Hudson River, which start in Hoboken and reach into New York State. NJ Transit is responsible for the tracks and stations in New Jersey, while Metro North maintains the tracks and stations in New York. The rolling stock is mostly NJT-branded, but some cars are MNR branded... as again, the two agencies split the cost of rolling stock on a pro-rated basis and the equipment is "pooled" so you may see MNR-branded equipment on non-MNR lines elsewhere in New Jersey, and it's definitely not unusual to see NJT-branded equipment north of the border. In fact, NJT has a yard and owns/maintains the station in Suffern, which just north of the NJ/NY border.
 
It's amazing stuff, indeed. It's hard to imagine what's left compared to what used to be back in the heydays. A lot of lines have been rationalized as they call it and that sadly left some areas without service. A friend of mine lives up in the Greenwood Lake area and given that this is a growing area, it's sad to see the lack of transit in that region. The good news is even with the reservoirs in place up there, we can still model that area in Trainz using some reconstruction, DEMs and topo maps. I did a quick mock up for him a few months ago and he was delighted. His grandfather was an engineer on the Erie when that line was served all the way up to Sterling Forest.

I'm kind of familiar with the NYC region. I used to visit relatives down there, hehe I say down because I travel down there from up here in the Boston area. My great grandmother lived in an apartment on the Lower Eastside overlooking the elevated. I used to watch the trains pass by her apartment when I was a kid. My aunt and uncle had an apartment in the Queens and a summer house out in the Hamptons. We visited a few times in both locations when I was young including a trip there during the NY World's Fair. I got to ride the NY subway and saw all kinds of stuff. I was 3 going on 4, but I still remember some of the trip 56 years later.

During the trips down in the mid-1960s, I remember the busy rail traffic on the New Haven and other railroads when we got down the New England Thruway and closer to the city. I think on those trips my head was literally spinning around like a top! In the 1970s, I got the treat of my life. In 1975 I took a trip down to the Hamptons to stay with my aunt and uncle at their summer house in Hampton Bays. I took the United Aircraft Turbo train down. This was still pre-Conrail and the Penn Central didn't get a chance to completely smash all the colors to horrible green and black, and Amtrak was just born a couple of years before. On the New Haven between Boston and NYC, I saw GG1s still in Pennsy colors running between New Haven and NYC alongside old Alco RS3s and C420s pulling freights. Some of the diesels were still in the New Haven colors and in addition to these, were the GE Little Joe and E44 electrics pulling mainline freights alongside washboard EMUs with big pantographs loaded with commuters in a mix of New Haven and PC paint. This is the equivalent to a great Trainz route today!

Before pulling into Penn Station, we crossed over the Hells Gate Bridge and through the Sunnyside Yards where the Long Island Railroad had their electrics stored. There were still a lot of Alco switchers and some Baldwin units, and the Southern Railway still ran their trains because they opted not to join Amtrak. Stabled in the yard was all there passenger trains awaiting departure to points south. My aunt met me on the platform and we took the subway and elevated to her apartment in the Queens where she packed up clothing and we had lunch before she drove out to the Hamptons.

TRS2019 is a good reintroduction to Trainz for you. There's a lot of familiarity about it when you get passed the new menu and content manager, but there are still some changes. The program, when combined with a good video card and clean content, runs quite well and contrary to what some people say here, I find it quite stable. I've used the program nearly daily and for many hours on end without issues other than self-inflicted ones.

Are there any MN routes out there yet? I'm not sure. As you found out there are some older ones that are missing content. We have ways of finding content today that weren't available before. There's a website, subscription service, that will hunt down the KUIDs and give you links to the assets. This mere $20 a year investment is worth well more than that. There are also some great 3rd party Trainz content sites as well that make some really nice freeware and pay ware. And finally there's TransDEM. TransDEM will allow you to download DEMS, merge them with topographic maps or other imagery, combine both, and then export out a route ready for texturing and assets. There's still a lot of other work to be done afterwards, but it beats manually generating terrain. There have been some nice route generated with that, and I've used the program for years now.

I know this is a lot to chew on, but once you dive in feel free to ask lots of questions.
 
Yes, both of you have provided very interesting information. Well done.

To the original poster, I'm going to assume you're a young person. These two kind fellow trainzers took their time to answer your questions, I think they deserve a heartfelt thank you.

William
 
JCitron: Thanks for the info and catching me up on things. I might not have a chance to dive into things right away, but I'll probably at least jump on the Black Friday deal while it's here.
 
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