"undo and redo" buttons
- Thread starter macka
- Start date
Not in the latest TRS19 SP1 or TRS19 Platinum. N3V have said that they are "looking into it" and before anyone gets all "hot and bothered" over this answer they should consider the hazards of making a seemingly "small reversal" in new source code - you might get your buttons back but what else will then stop working?
euromodeller
Imagineer
Scaremongering!
Why are you so much against having our toolbar back?
I am sure that N3V are capable of putting them back safely, we just need to be patient.
Why are you so much against having our toolbar back?
I am sure that N3V are capable of putting them back safely, we just need to be patient.
No, not scaremongering and I am not against having them back! It is just that some users would want them returned immediately - believing that it would be a simple fix to add the graphics and the event codes but nothing in programming is ever that simple. I could recite many boring examples about how such "simple software fixes" have led to disasters.
However, you are absolutely correct on your last point.
So please list a couple hundred of them.
There's millions and millions and millions of examples where things go right too. We never hear about things when they go right though because there no reason to mention them.
Your 1000's are such a small percentage of the overall picture.
Nobody is claiming it's a simple fix. Stop the scaremongering all the time please.
Interesting statistics Bruce. I don't recall mentioning any figures in my posts.
Things go right because the programmers take the necessary time (and there is never enough time) to check the code, test the data, run the tests and even then things can still go wrong. Change a data value or piece of code here and it can have an unexpected effect there!
Why is it called "scaremongering" when you point out the possible pitfalls of changing one section of code back to what it was before a major update? I am not saying don't do it, I am saying don't rush it because of demands to "get it fixed".
Things go right because the programmers take the necessary time (and there is never enough time) to check the code, test the data, run the tests and even then things can still go wrong. Change a data value or piece of code here and it can have an unexpected effect there!
Why is it called "scaremongering" when you point out the possible pitfalls of changing one section of code back to what it was before a major update? I am not saying don't do it, I am saying don't rush it because of demands to "get it fixed".
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I'm not a big fan of keystroke combinations, but Ctrl-Z is UNDO. It works for at least three levels.
The bigger question is why were they removed in the first place. I used to regularly check the Suggestion Box. I don't recall anyone requesting the elimination of the toolbar icons. Never. There was Beta testing before the release of T19. I was part of it. The toolbar was present. If there was Beta testing before 105096, I didn't hear about it. Now we see threads every week complaining about it.
However, N3V programmers did have enough time to produce a version for the iphone. Look at the youtube videos, it's basically an arcade level "drive a choo-choo" app for $6.99. It looks like N3V is going after a younger, hipper audience at the expense of their long standing customer base.
I agree this isn't scaremongering. It's like let's pull this thread because it's sticking out of a jacket. The next thing I know, the sleeve is unraveling. Yes this happened to me in real life many years ago! My mum was way less than pleased and I received the wrath of mum for it later!
With code it gets intertwined, as values and information is passed from one component (module) to another. If one thing is changed, like pulling the thread on that jacket, other things can break. Sometimes, as we've seen in beta testing, the process of fixing one thing will break another. This is why it's important to test not only the fix mentioned in the updates notes, but also everything else all over. We don't want to find out down the track that by fixing the grade crossing scripts, for example, that other things like other triggers or processes including Interlocking Towers end up breaking as well.
To help answer the question why it's not easy to introduce something, or reintroduce something back in without implications here's some things that happened not too long ago:
- In the process of making the AI work better with multiplayer, we now have locked junctions.
- Updating the AI code to work with the new Interlocking Towers, caused the AI to do weird things with signals and junctions.
- The changes made when the new data-format came out in T:ANE SP2 to segment the route and session data into tiny bits, to help stuff load faster, caused AI scripts to break.
- The changes in threading found in TRS2019 caused ATLS, Interlocking Towers, and other scripted things to stop working.
- The new unified driver interface, breaks ATLS crossing and other things like TRC crossing stuff again. It also broke stuff in TRS2019 directly because there is no pause/unpause button in Surveyor there, but exists in Plus version.
- The changes made to fix the stuttering, by introducing timeouts to quit processing a gazillion items, caused train-numbering, signal-tables, various path commands, consist rules, large numbers of commodities, and so on to cause script errors galore and sometimes crash.
- The fix put in to fix the problem with the AI stopping at signals, caused more problems later on with scared drivers afraid to pass through yards and couple.
- and gawd only knows how many more things not mentioned
So if they take their time putting the buttons back in, I am more than happy. We'll have to test things thoroughly to ensure that the buttons not only work, but also other things aren't broken at the same time.
The question does remain unanswered though. Why did they remove them in the first place? Is there going to be an interface change that will include another menu, or another integration of something else in the future that requires removing these two buttons from the menu bar even if there's acres and acres of real estate to work with.
With code it gets intertwined, as values and information is passed from one component (module) to another. If one thing is changed, like pulling the thread on that jacket, other things can break. Sometimes, as we've seen in beta testing, the process of fixing one thing will break another. This is why it's important to test not only the fix mentioned in the updates notes, but also everything else all over. We don't want to find out down the track that by fixing the grade crossing scripts, for example, that other things like other triggers or processes including Interlocking Towers end up breaking as well.
To help answer the question why it's not easy to introduce something, or reintroduce something back in without implications here's some things that happened not too long ago:
- In the process of making the AI work better with multiplayer, we now have locked junctions.
- Updating the AI code to work with the new Interlocking Towers, caused the AI to do weird things with signals and junctions.
- The changes made when the new data-format came out in T:ANE SP2 to segment the route and session data into tiny bits, to help stuff load faster, caused AI scripts to break.
- The changes in threading found in TRS2019 caused ATLS, Interlocking Towers, and other scripted things to stop working.
- The new unified driver interface, breaks ATLS crossing and other things like TRC crossing stuff again. It also broke stuff in TRS2019 directly because there is no pause/unpause button in Surveyor there, but exists in Plus version.
- The changes made to fix the stuttering, by introducing timeouts to quit processing a gazillion items, caused train-numbering, signal-tables, various path commands, consist rules, large numbers of commodities, and so on to cause script errors galore and sometimes crash.
- The fix put in to fix the problem with the AI stopping at signals, caused more problems later on with scared drivers afraid to pass through yards and couple.
- and gawd only knows how many more things not mentioned
So if they take their time putting the buttons back in, I am more than happy. We'll have to test things thoroughly to ensure that the buttons not only work, but also other things aren't broken at the same time.
The question does remain unanswered though. Why did they remove them in the first place? Is there going to be an interface change that will include another menu, or another integration of something else in the future that requires removing these two buttons from the menu bar even if there's acres and acres of real estate to work with.
My thoughts exactly. Possibly there is another interface change "under wraps" that would require the screen space they previously occupied. Or perhaps some-one decided that they just "didn't fit the look".
Going after the "younger, hipper audience" may be the case - that is where the real money seems to be and growing the size of your customer base is what survival in the gaming industry is all about. Us "old timers" wearing our engineers caps and bib and braces overalls while sitting in front of one of those dinosaur desktops and "playing trains" are not going to be around much longer
The development of the new iPhone and Android version of Trainz has been ongoing for a long time. N3V approached me some years ago for permission to convert one of my TRS2006 routes for use in this new iPhone/Android version. They stated (back then) that these mobile platforms really did not have the graphics "grunt" to run the latest TANE versions of Trainz routes. Don't know if it made the cut.
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I worked in computer software all my adult life. At least three things are vital for a good system:
- Good user input and feedback
- Thorough testing
- A clean, intuitive User Interface
The kerfuffle about the elimination of the icons reflects the failure of N3V to seriously consider item #1.
The problems you mentioned got into the released versions because of a failure to do really extensive testing (#2).
The extremely poor User Interface is indicative of failures of both 1&2. Some examples...
Dark gray text on a black background. This has been a problem since TANE and still exists today in 105096.
Hard to see options as in the Copy/Paste feature.
Text box popups where the cursor is not automatically in the textbox as in the Surveyor Find popup.
None of these problems existed before TANE. Apparently they resulted from N3V dropping Windows interface standards in favor of tablet/Iphone standards.
Removing icon shortcuts when no one wanted icon shortcuts removed - no beta testing - no user feedback.
Not providing much requested things like a notice of Active Route/Session Layer. Ignoring item #1.
I agree! Add in ant-sized fonts, with extra light high-lighting when something is selected, and everything becomes a struggle. (Thinking of the selected asset in the Surveyor asset menus). For us older folks, this is an ongoing battle, especially those of us with compromised eyesight. In my case I suffer from a corneal erosion issue, which has reduced my eyesight substantially since the last surgery in brightly lit environments.
A lot of this too is related to not listening to the beta testers who complained quite loudly too about these issues right from the get go. Being told it's a feature and not a bug on numerous occasions, is the most frustrating thing for us. Add to this the poorly implemented PBR textures, and it makes things worse. We complained loudly about the slow texture painting, when using normal textures and not PBR, and about the jelly showing. We were told, rather defensively, to live with it.
Interface issues abound everywhere such as with the Turf-FX. Why was that interface left with non-user-friendly terminology? For those of us that have worked in the computer industry, it's a no brainer. We should know binary values, as well as floating point values, scientific notation, and other things technical. Throwing this on the public is wrong and then be told to live with it, is irking.
KotangaGirl
Pre-Grouping Railways Nut
I find reading the menus a struggle as well with sometimes having to end up peering closely at the screen to read anything. After working on route building for a couple of hours in TS2012, the menus in TS2019 are immediately noticeable as being difficult to read. I really want to like TS2019, but why make everything so unfriendly and difficult to use.
Your timeline indicates that you have only 3 different versions of Trainz and none earlier than TS2010. I can assure you that those problems (in various forms) and others have existed in earlier versions going back to the beginning. Black text on a dark background, for example, was a common issue in some early versions (it was at one stage black on cream which at least was readable).
Yes I Remember that very well myself.
I wonder if it's a color pallet issue due to a Mac vs. PC type of thing. The same with tiny text as well.