could some one explain signals?

I have a long single track. directions are both ways. I have a S2 signal before the double track (passing area) trains are coming and going from both points A and B.
in this senerio both trains seem to bypass the passing area and end up head to head about where the star is. To help prevent this I took out all the signals between the passing lanes except between the s2 signals. Doing this I get trains holding at the passing lane while the other is traveling at 30mph granted this is a 60mph zone. I have tried adding more signals in between the passing blocks but I again end up with a head to head situation.


EXAMPLE:
B----------------s?-------------------s2-=s4=====================s4=-s2------------Train1>--------------------------s?-------------*---------s2--=s4===================s4=--s2-----------------<train2---------A

What I am wanting to do is to allow both trains going towards each other at full track speed and not going head to head while using the passing areas. But for now I am plagued with either head to heads, slow trains, or major backups or a combo of the later two.

Also I would like to know what the different signals are used for?

Signal 1
Signal 2
Signal 3 etc....up to 6

cashaber said:

I have a long single track. directions are both ways. I have a S2 signal before the double track (passing area) trains are coming and going from both points A and B. in this senerio both trains seem to bypass the passing area and end up head to head about where the star is.

Click to expand...

Which train waits at the loop and which train stays on the main line will depend on the setting of the points and the timing of the trains - it is not associated with any signalling. You have to ensure that one train takes the loop, and the other train enters the block just beyond the loop before the first train gets to the end of the loop.

I've had similar issues with my routes. My solution (and there are almost certainly others) is to place a signal at end of the passing loop to protect the single track section and then to place two invisible signals preceding the main signal. the effect of the invisible signal is to ensure the train approaching that passing loop sees a green signal and does not slow down to half speed.
Direction of travel ..............................................>................. >................. >
--------------------------------------- ========IS=========IS==========S= ----------------------------------------------------=S=============IS==========IS========--------------------------------------
Direction of travel..................... ...............................................................................................................................................<....................... <.................. <
Hope this is of some use.
Keith

Any signal on the single track section that can be seen as a permissive or calling on signal by an AI driver will cause trouble. I have long single track sections on my Uk layout and the only way I found to stop the Artificial Incompetence from causing head to head situations was to have the loops themselves under the control of signals, but none at all on the single track sections. Not how it's done according to the old signalling reference book I own, but then the AI has never read the book.

KotangaGirl said:

Not how it's done according to the old signalling reference book I own, but then the AI has never read the book.

Click to expand...

Very well said. A large part of the many problems with the AI is that many users expect that it will follow the local rules that operate in the real railroads that they are familiar with (a generalisation I know). But standard operating rule/reference books can differ widely between railroads.

Hi

Use an Interlocking Tower (I use the Enhanced Interlocking Tower by author "pguy") to control the single line section with 2 paths set up, one for each direction. Once a path is set it will prevent the other path from being set until the first path has been cleared.

Regards

Brian

pware said:

Very well said. A large part of the many problems with the AI is that many users expect that it will follow the local rules that operate in the real railroads that they are familiar with (a generalisation I know). But standard operating rule/reference books can differ widely between railroads.

Click to expand...

In some places on my Norfolk layout where I can't install a functional signal where there should be one due to the peculiar workings of the Trainz AI I use Solborn's very nice dummy semaphore signal <kuid:93112:303444> just to satisfy my desire for things to look as they should.

Because my Norfolk layout is a TS2012 layout I can't use interlocking towers so it all comes down to very careful signal placement as well as the scheduling of trains on the single line sections. I have found though that if the signals are sited correctly that my single line sections are able to withstand a fair bit of trains getting out of sequence before a problem arises.

Hi,

Consider using the commands set path command set. That should let you set the points correctly. Alternatively, you could use track markers to make sure that the loops are "one way" That should help

Colin

Yes I very much agree. Direction markers in loops to make them one way only are absolutely essential.

cashaber said:

I have a long single track. directions are both ways. I have a S2 signal before the double track (passing area) trains are coming and going from both points A and B.
What I am wanting to do is to allow both trains going towards each other at full track speed and not going head to head while using the passing areas. But for now I am plagued with either head to heads, slow trains, or major backups or a combo of the later two.

Also I would like to know what the different signals are used for?

Signal 1
Signal 2
Signal 3 etc....up to 6

Click to expand...

http://trains.0catch.com/Tut4-IntroToSignaling.htm is a really, really good tutorial. It's from 2006, but still applicable.

What I do (others may disagree)...

I pass on the right (US Protocol?)
At the entrances to passing sidings, place an 02L on the single track.
Set the default switch setting to the exiting path.

At the exits from the passing sidings, place 04s on both tracks facing the junction. Place them well before where the rails converge to avoid...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXUSUAYMwWQ

Do not place any signals on the single track mainline (except as stated above. Doing so will cause trains to meet trains.


For complex situations like Y's you would probably want to investigate Enhanced Interlocking Towers. Be prepared for a bit of a learning curve.

Lastly, Trainz will slow to half speeds for a number of reasons, but don't ask me what they are.

ecco said:

http://trains.0catch.com/Tut4-IntroToSignaling.htm is a really, really good tutorial. It's from 2006, but still applicable.

What I do (others may disagree)...

I pass on the right (US Protocol?)
At the entrances to passing sidings, place an 02L on the single track.
Set the default switch setting to the exiting path.

At the exits from the passing sidings, place 04s on both tracks facing the junction. Place them well before where the rails converge to avoid...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXUSUAYMwWQ

Do not place any signals on the single track mainline (except as stated above. Doing so will cause trains to meet trains.


For complex situations like Y's you would probably want to investigate Enhanced Interlocking Towers. Be prepared for a bit of a learning curve.

Lastly, Trainz will slow to half speeds for a number of reasons, but don't ask me what they are.

Click to expand...

Same here except I use JR's Type 06, or RRS SL3 SL 2-head Interlocking.

For wyes use 3-head (Type 01 from N3V, Type 08 JR, SL SL3 3-head Interlocking signals by RRS.

For the various legs on busy lines, I'll put in a track mark before, middle, and after on each leg. This ensures the AI will pass over them without issue.

Scripted permissive, aka home signals, will work on single track, but the old-fashioned non-scripted ones will not. JR's smart signals, are scripted and will lockdown a line pretty well.

Why AI runs at half-speed. The letter Y is one that can never be straightened... In most situations, however, in all seriousness, it's due to a junction lever on the proposed route not being set properly, or in other cases lack of signals. Having those Type 05's,aka permissive signals in between help.

JCitron said:

For the various legs on busy lines, I'll put in a track mark before, middle, and after on each leg. This ensures the AI will pass over them without issue.

Click to expand...

The problem with that is if you have many AI trains and many "legs" you have to instruct every train to use each of the trackmarks.

A This is the MainLine Marker like the Track Direction Markers would be really great - Right N3V? We can dream.

Track Priority Markers can be used to direct AI trains with matching priorities through set routes.

All of this is almost overwhelming for someone who has limited route building experience. So many different methods, so many different ideas, so many different signals, and then you read something like "things work best when there is no signal." Where to begin for a firm understand? Rhetorical question, I assume a person needs need to do it, try things, and experience the results.

pware said:

Track Priority Markers can be used to direct AI trains with matching priorities through set routes.

Click to expand...

I'll give that a try. Thanks.

ecco said:

The problem with that is if you have many AI trains and many "legs" you have to instruct every train to use each of the trackmarks.

A This is the MainLine Marker like the Track Direction Markers would be really great - Right N3V? We can dream.

Click to expand...

There are three possible directions and nine track marks total, and an AI driver will only use 3 of them. Head north. Mainline---Mid-right---Northern line. It's not as bad as you think, and if you have lots of AI drivers, you can us the Schedule Library with the Copy Commands From... insert schedule setup.

The Schedule Library, once used, will be your best friend for life as long as you create routes and AI schedules.

I agree having a MainLine Marker would be great. Insert a marker and be done with it.

pware said:

Track Priority Markers can be used to direct AI trains with matching priorities through set routes.

Click to expand...

Thank you - Thank you - Thank you. Prior to seeing your post I took two tipples on the Clinchfield route out of commission because the AI was "shortcutting" through them and causing head-to-head meets.

I set up a little test with a "shortcut". I made my loco Priority 1. I put a Priority 3 Track Marker on the shortcut. I told the AI to drive from A to B. It bypassed the shortcut like the plague. Yay!

Live and learn.

JCitron said:

There are three possible directions and nine track marks total, and an AI driver will only use 3 of them. Head north. Mainline---Mid-right---Northern line. It's not as bad as you think, and if you have lots of AI drivers, you can us the Schedule Library with the Copy Commands From... insert schedule setup.

The Schedule Library, once used, will be your best friend for life as long as you create routes and AI schedules.

I agree having a Main Line Marker would be great. Insert a marker and be done with it.

Click to expand...

I have used the Copy Commands From... Insert Schedule. But with different starting points and different stops it's not an ideal solution.

Thanks to pware, I now know about the Track Priority Markers and how to use them. See posts 13 and 17.

I am glad it worked out.

A word of caution about using Priority Markers: They work best when used with matching priority values given to consists.

Placing a Track Priority marker set to 3 on a loop will force all consists with priority level 3 through the loop - baring any obstructions such as locked switches or another consist already occupying the track, in which case priority level 3 consists will bypass the loop. However, it will not always stop consists with priority levels 1 or 2 from using that loop, particularly if the only alternative route is blocked.

The default priority level for all consists is 2* so placing another Track Priority marker set to 2 on the alternative route will force all consists with level 2 through the alternative (baring obstructions as mentioned above). Adding another marker with level 1 alongside the level 2 marker will force all consists that do not have level 3 through the alternative route.

The Trainz Wiki reference is at http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/How_to_Use_Track_Priority_Markers

*EDIT: I have noticed that the initial priority level of all consists since TRS19 SP1 now seems to be 0 but consists with levels of 1, 2 or 3 cannot be set to 0. I have submitted a bug report.

This thread forced me to go back and revisit some basics. I wanted to try some different signals and I setup a "square" loop with passing sidings on each of the four sides. For "test one" (no signals at all) I placed 2 short consists on track and let them go. I was amazed that some of the "main line" switches wouldn't remain set for main line running. After a train passed they would reset back to the siding. Then it hit me, a switch/turnout will set back to the state it was in at the start of the session, it doesn't remain as is after the train passes. I think I had learned this about a year ago but had totally forgotten! I had not set turnout positions at the start of the session. How easy it is to forget and assume.