One step forward? Not the Trainz interface.

A quick note to Pware. You were being unreasonable and ASSUMED I would boycott TRS2019 just because of a missing icon. Kindly don't jump to conclusions, you don't know. The fact is I am well aware how you support it, what I didn't mention is the obvious fact most posts about problems are about TRS2019 and those seem to be increasing. This list is long, and I didn't see any point in repeating it here.

Alikiwi said:

A quick note to Pware. You were being unreasonable and ASSUMED I would boycott 2019 just because of a missing icon. Kindly don't jump to conclusions, you don't know. The fact is I am well aware how you support it, what I didn't mention is the obvious fact most posts about problems are about TRS2019 and those seem to be increasing. This list is long, and I didn't see any point in repeating here. I am not dumb and I don't appreciate the implication that I am.

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The reason for more complaints about TRS2019, is because it's a new product and there are more people using it than T:ANE now, and this IS a TRS19 dedicated forum. Like anything new, the complaints will wrangle out of nowhere as people complain about TRS19 taking their food, and even worse, their beer from their refrigerator if it's suspected.

Trainzers in general don't like anything new and given that we've had a lot of new stuff thrown at us in TRS19, and even when T:ANE first came out, there will be fits caused by apoplexia because buttons were moved about on the interface.

In a few years, whenever TRS29 comes out, or whatever it maybe called, People will look back at TRS19 as being quaint and perfect through their rosy glasses.

From my experience, TRS19 quirks and all is far more stable than T:ANE ever was, or any previous version. Not spoken by a fan boi, but from experience. That's 16 years of Trainzing experience starting in December 29th 2003. I'm not sure if you were involved at all in any of the early days. Gulp! is all I can say. You've got it made in the shade now, in fact quirks and all, we've all got it made in the shade now compared to any of the other versions.

JCitron said:

You might find these interesting...

https://forums.auran.com/trainz/sho...line-and-undo-button-bug&highlight=undo+crash


Supposedly fixed in TS12, but it was still sketchy from experience.
https://forums.auran.com/trainz/sho...ch-is-now-available&highlight=Undo+crash+TS12


https://forums.auran.com/trainz/sho...-the-Undo-feature&highlight=undo+crashes+TANE

A trip down memory lane.

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So the first link is from a post where a small number of people had a problem with it. Nothing confirmed by Auran/N3V

The second link mentions nothing about using or not using undo, only about a problem with spline heights when using it.

The third link - again, nothing official from N3V.

Not really interesting since it still doesn't have anything from the developer.

A quick note to Alikiwi. Thank you for you clarification.

Yes I do support Trainz as I believe it is the best overall product of its type available - and I have tried some of the others which have some advantages (e.g. great graphics, timetabling) and some serious drawbacks (poor asset creation features and/or few assets) . Contrary to the impressions that some of my posts may have created, I have been critical of N3V and the various Trainz releases as well as submitting numerous bug reports, some of which have taken years to be resolved and others where I am still waiting.

My main reason for making what some see as "fanboy" posts is to provide a counterbalance to the small number of very negative posts (count the individuals who have made these posts in this thread, not the number of responses, compared to the number who have viewed this thread). This is not to say that those posters do not have legitimate complaints. As John pointed out in a post above, any new (version 1.0 and version 1.1) N3V product has always generated a ton of complaints but after a few updates and the release of a newer member of the product line, the attitudes often change to one of "nostalgia".

New releases in the past have led to similar boycott threats but almost invariably, those who make the threats end up with the boycotted version appearing on their timeline. What should anyone make of that?

Anyway, I wish you a happy new year free from the fires - where I am at the moment there has been a constant stream of sirens heading south all this morning.

Lack of a 1-click Undo button. Even gmax had more empathy for the user.

If something doesn't work as expected then you can submit a bug report. https://n3vgames.typeform.com/to/xRdryu

For example, if you have some disability that makes doing something that used to be OK but is now difficult, then I suggest that is a legitimate complaint.

N3V do process bug reports but probably don't read every thread.

pware, I don't think that the view numbers are unique views, they are a total, how many times have you and I viewed the thread? Each visit increases the number.
Also the view numbers are boosted by bots visiting the thread (including Google).
That 5% figure you quoted in a previous post is not accurate because of that.

This discussion is not about a new pruduct (it is over a year old now) it is about a Service Pack which changed the UI of the current product. So saying that new versions cause members to moan is not right, it's the so-called upgrade that has caused the problems, and not just with the UI.

Yes people will moan about changes to something they are used to, but opinions need to be aired and discussed, only N3V will have the official answer to why the Surveyor UI was changed and for that we will have to wait.

pware said:

My main reason for making what some see as "fanboy" posts is to provide a counterbalance to the small number of very negative posts (count the individuals who have made these posts in this thread, not the number of responses, compared to the number who have viewed this thread). This is not to say that those posters do not have legitimate complaints.

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I used to feel like this until I realised that if a product is good, it effectively defends itself and if N3V didn't feel the need to put up a defence, why did I need to do so?

If poster have 'legitimate complaint', I might in fact be doing N3V a disservice in trying to snuff out feedback that may well be of value.

I have been following this and similar threads on the same subject ever since SP1 was announced but I have until now avoided posting anything. I have also deliberately avoided downloading SP1 because of the issues that have arisen. I don't know whether I am in a minority or not (I suspect that the majority of users never or very rarely post in this forum) but, having read the issues that other people have reported, amongst them primarily, long term players and asset/route creators and it is the route creators that appear to have been hit the hardest by the changes. Except for the display resolution, it appears that the changes have less of an impact on people who drive trains and run sessions only.

From my point of view, because I spend virtually my whole time in Surveyor, Anything that makes it harder and slower to use or find tools is a retrogade step. I very rarely make use of keyboard shortcuts and fishing around in layers of menus to find something that pre-SP1 is just one click away does not appeal to me. I have no particular interest in making modifications to routes in Driver mode. My primary gripe however is the withdrawal of UHD 3840x2160 resolution. This is a serious retrogade step which I do not understand at all. The suggestion that it is because MACs are unable to display this resolution correctls is utterly ludicrous. I do not have a MAC and have no intention of ever acquiring one. I currently have no problem using 3840x2160 resolution at the moment and do not see why I should lose this because of MAC limitations. Other Game manufacturers are falling over themselves to provide UHD resolutions and making User Interfaces easier.

I agree N3V needs to make money, but a company also needs good customer relations and the decisions they make need to be sensible and improve the product for the company to survive.

Regards

Mike

pware said:

This is a good example of the over reaction, or dare I say it - Hysteria

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Posting problems and issues is not hysteria or over reaction.

pware said:

I really do not believe that N3V are quaking in their boots because a few posters have decided to boycott TRS19 over the issue of two missing screen icons. Really?

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I agree, they probably aren't. But if 5% of users don't upgrade, that's a kick in the pocketbook for any developer.

pware said:

It is also an example of the exaggeration that can occur - I build routes and sessions (so I qualify as "anyone who build routes and sessions") and I do not miss the buttons because I never used them.

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WOW! You never use UNDO? Most of us aren't that talented. You don't use Quick Drive from within a Session? I would think many of us do. Perhaps you think it's a good idea to add keystrokes to oft used functions, some of us don't agree.

pware said:

If the old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" had been applied then there would be no interactive industries, no working semaphore signal arms (remember the very first versions of Trainz), no sessions, no layers, etc, etc - the list goes on. Many of these innovations had teething problems and heaps of protest posts in these forums but they have since developed into "cannot do without" features.

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In other words, users should continue to make developers aware of desired features. So, that's what we are doing.

pware said:

As for the top menu bar not being overcrowded, how do you know what future plans N3V have in that area?

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Apparently the future plans do no include showing the function (Edit Route / Edit Session) and the layer names that many people expressed a desire for.

pware said:

As any customer satisfaction survey designer will tell you, those who have an axe to grind are the most likely to respond while those who are happy or at best disinterested, are the least likely to respond. At the time that I wrote this there were 288 views of this thread and 16 posts (three people had posted more than once) so that makes a very rough estimate of 5% of those who viewed this thread who were dissatisfied enough to post.

Click to expand...

pware said:

Mymain reason for making what some see as "fanboy" posts isto provide a counterbalance to the small number of very negativeposts (count the individuals who have made these posts in thisthread, not the number of responses, compared to the number who haveviewed this thread).

Click to expand...

On the other hand, perhaps the relatively few responses is due to many users glancing at the thread and thinking, Why Bother Complaining - N3V doesn't listen, N3V doesn't respond.

I can think of several Trainzers who don't come anywhere near this forum now because of the inevitable bickering that goes on in threads like this.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion even if you do not agree with it, one size doesn't fit all.

amigacooke said:

I used to feel like this until I realised that if a product is good, it effectively defends itself and if N3V didn't feel the need to put up a defence, why did I need to do so?

If poster have 'legitimate complaint', I might in fact be doing N3V a disservice in trying to snuff out feedback that may well be of value.

Click to expand...

Excellent advice. I will keep out of this from now on. In any case where I am currently located (on holidays) power is still cut, all road access is out and they have just restored telecoms (possibly just temporarily) due to the fires that swept through on New Year's Eve. Currently running my phone from a battery backup.

I've already said all I want say as well so I'll be staying off this thread from now on too.

Well, I have one more thing to say...


HAPPY NEW YEAR !

Let's not get too heated over points of view, remember we are all Trainz enthusiasts else we wouldn't be so passionate about it!

HAPPY NEW YEAR
I've partially solved the blurry texture from a height issue I was having, by increasing the draw distance to maximum. FOV zoom in a menu I can live with.
Trust me, it doesn't take long to adapt to using Ctrl+Z for undo.
cheers
Graeme

grazlash said:

HAPPY NEW YEAR
I've partially solved the blurry texture from a height issue I was having, by increasing the draw distance to maximum. FOV zoom in a menu I can live with.
Trust me, it doesn't take long to adapt to using Ctrl+Z for undo.
cheers
Graeme

Click to expand...

Its what I've always done anyway. However apart from content manager freezing and displaying wrongly on occasions SP3 Tane seems to be good enough for me at the moment, it took me about 2 years to move from 2012 to TANE and i think the same timeline might be about right before I move to 2019 ( although asset creations sounds a can of worms for 2019 so it might be longer) .
There will always be detractors and fans of changes, I still think its wise to wait and see , especially in a game where making routes is a possibility and how a new version can screw them up royally.

Happy New Year to all users, players and Forum Members.

To our Australian friends and fellow members affected by the current disastrous and frightening situation in your region I send commiserations and the hope that you will overcome without more loss of life and property.


Back on topic:

The statisticians appear to be under the impression that the low volume of those expressing their concerns on this forum about the missing shortcut icons from the task bar in the recent release is acceptable and therefore ought to be of little or no concern to the programme developers. I would like to add my name to that percentage who believe the omissions under discussion to be a retrograde step.

I find it surprising that quite a few users/players who have been actively engaged with, and on, Trainz for years prefer to stay with older versions of the game because they find those versions better and/or easier to use. This should be a cause of concern for the powers that be when designing new ‘upgrading’ exercises. Shrugging their legitimate and considered views off as ‘hysteria’ shows a contemptable disrespect for established users/players and a sad lack of understanding of ‘customer relations’.

The idea of designing a task bar that users/players can add or retract shortcut icons to/from, as a previous contributor has proposed, sounds reasonable and perfectly doable. After all most programmes out there in the ether have adopted and used that format successfully for decades.

I, and I expect many more users/players, am quite content with letting better, more experienced, heads than mine prevail and resolve issues as they arise. This they invariably do with resounding success. But when attempts are undertaken to silence them then don’t be surprised when even the stones themselves speak out. The consequences could very well be dire.

There is a big difference between acknowledging different views and treating paying customers, which we all are, as mugs.

Quote from the post above...

I find it surprising that quite a few users/players who have been actively engaged with, and on, Trainz for years prefer to stay with older versions of the game because they find those versions better and/or easier to use. This should be a cause of concern for the powers that be when designing new ‘upgrading’ exercises.

I wasn't going to add another comment to this thread, but, the above quote needs to be seen by N3V devs.

euromodeller said:

I wasn't going to add another comment to this thread, but, the above quote needs to be seen by N3V devs.

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Perhaps they saw it in the original post?