One step forward? Not the Trainz interface.

Whilst I can appreciate plenty will complain, but few will say it's fine, I have to say a couple of things. N3V were utterly insane to remove the undo/redo shortcuts given they are necessary (IMHO), and they were NOT a problem and certainly the top bar is not overcrowded. It is a marketing mistake of serious proportions as anyone who builds routes and/or sessions would know. (I'm sure there may be a few who disagree).
As one who makes both, I can tell you I hit that undo button 20 - 50 times per day, often because I am placing something to see if it suits, no, hit undo. Or something of a problem, placing an item anywhere near a "multi-Industry". Make that mistake, and attempt to turn the object and the damn track turns, NOT the object. Guess what? Hit undo twice is needed. Those are some examples.

There is a very old saying, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". N3V needs to remember this. Why on earth spent so much effort removing something useful when there is NO legitimate reason to do so? That time and effort could have gone into finalising the Tane SP4 pack.

As such let me tell N3V, no way on earth will I buy TRS2019 with so many and increasing problems and a surveyor that is VERY USER UNFRIENDLY. I believe this is one major issue that they need to take notice of, especially if they think long term about their hip pocket. Again just my opinion, but I am staying with T:ane.
 
Alikiwi said:
Whilst I can appreciate plenty will complain, but few will say it's fine, I have to say a couple of things. N3V were utterly insane to remove the undo/redo shortcuts given they are necessary (IMHO), and they were NOT a problem and certainly the top bar is not overcrowded. It is a marketing mistake of serious proportions as anyone who builds routes and/or sessions would know. (I'm sure there may be a few who disagree).
As one who makes both, I can tell you I hit that undo button 20 - 50 times per day, often because I am placing something to see if it suits, no, hit undo. Or something of a problem, placing an item anywhere near a "multi-Industry". Make that mistake, and attempt to turn the object and the damn track turns, NOT the object. Guess what? Hit undo twice is needed. Those are some examples.

There is a very old saying, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". N3V needs to remember this. Why on earth spent so much effort removing something useful when there is NO legitimate reason to do so? That time and effort could have gone into finalising the Tane SP4 pack.

As such let me tell N3V, no way on earth will I buy TRS2019 with so many and increasing problems and a surveyor that is VERY USER UNFRIENDLY. I believe this is one major issue that they need to take notice of, especially if they think long term about their hip pocket. Again just my opinion, but I am staying with T:ane.
Click to expand...

Outside of the few issues that have been mentioned and have been bug reported, Surveyor is still Surveyor. The interface is the same as it was since TRS2004, or when I started with Trainz in December 2003. In fact it's TODAY in 2003 now that I think about it!

I agree they shouldn't have messed with the buttons, but once you figure out where things are, and use short-cut keys as needed, it's not so bad. I always used the quick keys, and up until recently never hit undo much. You see up until recently using undo was not recommended unless you really had to, but you did it at your own risk.

You think not having buttons is bad. From TRS2004 until TRS2009, hitting undo too much lead to weird things happening such as route corruption, and crashes to the desktop. TS2010 gave us an even weirder problem where splines attached to MO-crossing objects such as level crossings, and fixed track objects, would disconnect and extend off into space. Yup tracks and roads turned into a bowl of spaghetti requiring sometimes hours to get things untwisted and fixed. TS12 was better, but best not hit undo too many times. This time it was random crashes to the desktop and sometimes an EDR, which in TS12 could take hours including the data validation.

It took, let's see... 11 years to get this more or less fixed in T:ANE where even there doing too many undos lead to twisty roller coaster tracks. It works in TRS19, but requires hunting under a menu or requiring a short-key... I'd be happy where we are for now until that minor issue is fixed. At least it works.
 
You think not having buttons is bad. From TRS2004 until TRS2009, hitting undo too much lead to weird things happening such as route corruption, and crashes to the desktop. TS2010 gave us an even weirder problem where splines attached to MO-crossing objects such as level crossings, and fixed track objects, would disconnect and extend off into space. Yup tracks and roads turned into a bowl of spaghetti requiring sometimes hours to get things untwisted and fixed. TS12 was better, but best not hit undo too many times. This time it was random crashes to the desktop and sometimes an EDR, which in TS12 could take hours including the data validation.
Click to expand...

Ha ha, - yes John I can remember pressing the undo key one time in TS2009 and suddenly getting a railway to the moon with tracks looping off into space. I spent yesterday working on my Norfolk route for a good while laying in long shallow gradient and I wouldn't have a clue how many times I used the undo button. So far (touch wood) I've never had TS2012 crash on me, but sometimes it gives a jump like there was a sharp earth tremor. Nothing gets busted or corrupted though.
 
KotangaGirl said:
Ha ha, - yes John I can remember pressing the undo key one time in TS2009 and suddenly getting a railway to the moon with tracks looping off into space. I spent yesterday working on my Norfolk route for a good while laying in long shallow gradient and I wouldn't have a clue how many times I used the undo button. So far (touch wood) I've never had TS2012 crash on me, but sometimes it gives a jump like there was a sharp earth tremor. Nothing gets busted or corrupted though.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, I forgot about the earthquake in TS12! :)

Crosses fingers for you.
 
Alikiwi said:
N3V were utterly insane to remove the undo/redo shortcuts given they are necessary (IMHO), and they were NOT a problem and certainly the top bar is not overcrowded. It is a marketing mistake of serious proportions as anyone who builds routes and/or sessions would know.

There is a very old saying, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". N3V needs to remember this. Why on earth spent so much effort removing something useful when there is NO legitimate reason to do so? That time and effort could have gone into finalising the Tane SP4 pack.

As such let me tell N3V, no way on earth will I buy TRS2019 with so many and increasing problems and a surveyor that is VERY USER UNFRIENDLY. I believe this is one major issue that they need to take notice of, especially if they think long term about their hip pocket. Again just my opinion, but I am staying with T:ane.
Click to expand...

This is a good example of the over reaction, or dare I say it - Hysteria - that can occur in these forums. I really do not believe that N3V are quaking in their boots because a few posters have decided to boycott TRS19 over the issue of two missing screen icons. Really?

It is also an example of the exaggeration that can occur - I build routes and sessions (so I qualify as "anyone who build routes and sessions") and I do not miss the buttons because I never used them.

If the old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" had been applied then there would be no interactive industries, no working semaphore signal arms (remember the very first versions of Trainz), no sessions, no layers, etc, etc - the list goes on. Many of these innovations had teething problems and heaps of protest posts in these forums but they have since developed into "cannot do without" features.

As for the top menu bar not being overcrowded, how do you know what future plans N3V have in that area?

My opinions, feel free to disagree.
 
I wish (among other things) that I could jump between picklists without needing
To s roll to the top, hit a button to bring up a menu, click the top item,then select the new list.

Overall, I'd say the user interface looks as though the people designing it were under extreme time pressure
To get it done so they took the build it quick route instead of the make it easy to use.

Al.ost as if two programmers were saddled with everything?

And yes, I know what it takes to write good code. I did it for 30+ plus years professionally.
HF
 
Count me in to the list of people deeply unhappy with the new menus. However, an obvious solution occurs to me: do what Apple and a few others do and let us decide what icons are present.

Edit: to expand on that, what I mean is to let us toggle each icon on or off individually.
 
Last edited:
Hmm, I wonder how many man hours it took and about the cost involved of removing the buttons and replacing them with menus?

The time/money involved could have been used for something constructive, like simplifying the Turf FX UI.
 
JCitron said:
Outside of the few issues that have been mentioned and have been bug reported, Surveyor is still Surveyor. The interface is the same as it was since TRS2004, or when I started with Trainz in December 2003. In fact it's TODAY in 2003 now that I think about it!

I agree they shouldn't have messed with the buttons, but once you figure out where things are, and use short-cut keys as needed, it's not so bad. I always used the quick keys, and up until recently never hit undo much. You see up until recently using undo was not recommended unless you really had to, but you did it at your own risk.

You think not having buttons is bad. From TRS2004 until TRS2009, hitting undo too much lead to weird things happening such as route corruption, and crashes to the desktop. TS2010 gave us an even weirder problem where splines attached to MO-crossing objects such as level crossings, and fixed track objects, would disconnect and extend off into space. Yup tracks and roads turned into a bowl of spaghetti requiring sometimes hours to get things untwisted and fixed. TS12 was better, but best not hit undo too many times. This time it was random crashes to the desktop and sometimes an EDR, which in TS12 could take hours including the data validation.

It took, let's see... 11 years to get this more or less fixed in T:ANE where even there doing too many undos lead to twisty roller coaster tracks. It works in TRS19, but requires hunting under a menu or requiring a short-key... I'd be happy where we are for now until that minor issue is fixed. At least it works.
Click to expand...


Who recommended that undo not be used? Was it N3V? If so, I'd like to see the statement from N3V. Otherwise this is just more here say.

I never had any problem using undo in TS12, or TANE - they worked fine regardless of how many times it was used.
 
Hi

Change always causes complaints. You should hear my wife every time they update her favourite craft program but after a couple of weeks getting used to it normal service is resumed. Young people adapt to change much quicker than us older people as they aren't as set in their ways.

Regards

Brian
 
euromodeller said:
Hmm, I wonder how many man hours it took and about the cost involved of removing the buttons and replacing them with menus?

The time/money involved could have been used for something constructive, like simplifying the Turf FX UI.
Click to expand...


I doubt it was that much since it is the same menu that was already in Driver. I doubt that any new code was written. Just copy, paste and tweak. I suspect there are more than two programmers on staff. Job titles are very fluid in a small company.

My years of working for a small company led me to know that some customers always complain and it can be a mistake to make changes to suit just them but it is also true that the large majority that don't complain are not always happy. They just stop being customers.

I suspect that changing to the Driver menu was needed to make the Unified Driver Surveyor work for subscribers. Of course, if it has to be the same menu, they could both have an Undo button. Redo could remain a menu item and keyboard shortcut as it is used much less.

William
 
Last edited:
Kennilworth said:
Hi

Change always causes complaints. You should hear my wife every time they update her favourite craft program but after a couple of weeks getting used to it normal service is resumed. Young people adapt to change much quicker than us older people as they aren't as set in their ways.

Regards

Brian
Click to expand...

I firmly believe they made this change because they thought it was the right thing to do.

I also firmly believe they were wrong.
 
pware said:
This is a good example of the over reaction, or dare I say it - Hysteria - that can occur in these forums. I really do not believe that N3V are quaking in their boots because a few posters have decided to boycott TRS19 over the issue of two missing screen icons. Really?

It is also an example of the exaggeration that can occur - I build routes and sessions (so I qualify as "anyone who build routes and sessions") and I do not miss the buttons because I never used them.

If the old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" had been applied then there would be no interactive industries, no working semaphore signal arms (remember the very first versions of Trainz), no sessions, no layers, etc, etc - the list goes on. Many of these innovations had teething problems and heaps of protest posts in these forums but they have since developed into "cannot do without" features.

As for the top menu bar not being overcrowded, how do you know what future plans N3V have in that area?

My opinions, feel free to disagree.
Click to expand...

Yes, "Hysteria" is on full display isn't it.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it" - does not equate to "never improve" something.

Nobody is expecting N3V to "quake in their boots". Talk about "Hysteria" ....... more like hilarious the reactions around here when someone has a different opinion.

Game Forums are all the same pretty much, someone doesn't like something about the game, others jump in and start defending it.

Both have a right to express their opinion, but calling others hysterical because of it is uncalled for.


It would be nice if N3V would defend their decision once in a while.

Of course we could just sit here with our hands folded, say nothing, and hope the future isn't full of more "Hysteria". :D
 
+1 Bruce.

Not a whisper from N3V so far on any of the issues raised. They really have released the SP then done a runner for the Xmas holidays.

Re game forums, I decided to buy The Witcher 3 over Xmas as it was on sale. Posted some warts 'n' all thoughts on the Steam forum earlier. You would think I had committed a major crime judging by most of the responses I received (a few were reasonable). So it's not just the train games that have the zealots and fanbois who will defend any decision their almight developers make!!
 
brucem56 said:
Who recommended that undo not be used? Was it N3V? If so, I'd like to see the statement from N3V. Otherwise this is just more here say.

I never had any problem using undo in TS12, or TANE - they worked fine regardless of how many times it was used.
Click to expand...

It was Auran actually. Oh yeah, don't use the Undo button it'll crash. As any of the old-timers here, and I'm sure they'll remember that. Until TS12, and even then it was sketchy, we avoided it like the plague.
 
JCitron said:
It was Auran actually. Oh yeah, don't use the Undo button it'll crash. As any of the old-timers here, and I'm sure they'll remember that. Until TS12, and even then it was sketchy, we avoided it like the plague.
Click to expand...

You have a quote from Auran on that? Can't be that hard to find, TANE isn't that old. Would really like to see where they said not to use it in TS12 and TANE.
 
Vern said:
+1 Bruce.

Not a whisper from N3V so far on any of the issues raised. They really have released the SP then done a runner for the Xmas holidays.

Re game forums, I decided to buy The Witcher 3 over Xmas as it was on sale. Posted some warts 'n' all thoughts on the Steam forum earlier. You would think I had committed a major crime judging by most of the responses I received (a few were reasonable). So it's not just the train games that have the zealots and fanbois who will defend any decision their almight developers make!!
Click to expand...

*Totally off topic*
The Witcher 3 has certain well known known bugs Vern. My daughter has it on PS4 and in that version many of the bugs had been fixed. I don't think they have been fixed in the Steam version though.
 
When I first saw the menu change with SP1 beta and the undo/redo button moved, there was a bit of a grrrrrr and it was a bit like searching for a lost sheep when looking for the icon. However, I did find it, but as it was bit of a nuisance to use where it was, I began to use the shortcut key ctrl+z. Low and behold using the shortcut key is a lot quicker and in very easy reach. Now I use it with 100240 build (non SP1) and it feels "too long' to click on the menu.

I am actually kicking myself for not using the shortcut key years earlier and am thinking of "how many" minutes were wasted overtime when I could have been building :cool: . I am thinking of re-binding to one key as it will be even quicker than using two keys. :hehe: Guess it comes down to habit (for myself) with using the undo when it was visible prior to SP1.
 
brucem56 said:
You have a quote from Auran on that? Can't be that hard to find, TANE isn't that old. Would really like to see where they said not to use it in TS12 and TANE.
Click to expand...

You might find these interesting...

https://forums.auran.com/trainz/sho...line-and-undo-button-bug&highlight=undo+crash


Supposedly fixed in TS12, but it was still sketchy from experience.
https://forums.auran.com/trainz/sho...ch-is-now-available&highlight=Undo+crash+TS12


https://forums.auran.com/trainz/sho...-the-Undo-feature&highlight=undo+crashes+TANE

A trip down memory lane.
 
KotangaGirl said:
*Totally off topic*
The Witcher 3 has certain well known known bugs Vern. My daughter has it on PS4 and in that version many of the bugs had been fixed. I don't think they have been fixed in the Steam version though.
Click to expand...

Well without going too far off topic, the main issue is the 4K graphics don't display correctly (off the edge of the screen) so stuck running in 1920 x 1080 - though it still looks very nice.

However with relevance to the matter in hand, I get the impression the developers have had so many users supplicating and worshipping the game, they take that as reason to dismiss the people who think it is not necessarily quite the best title in the history of computer gaming. In fact, I believe there is an unofficial mod which addresses many of the issues - which was actually created by one of the devs themselves!
 
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