How does one avoid a collision at a convergence?

AI train (3/4 mile long manifest freight) suddenly pulls out from the siding taking me by surprise. I approach the junction on the mainline manually driving a heavyweight Pullman passenger train (14 cars and two A7's) at 50 mph. Observing my HUD screen about 1/4 mile from the junction it suddenly goes red from green. I put the dynamic on full power: I put the brake in emergency mode. Still no luck. BOOM! Derailment. Game over.

So how should I redesign a junction like this so fast mainline train gets plenty of time to stop? AI seems to take priority over the lever. Will placing a priority marker on the mainline approaching the switch cause AI to yield to the mainline train? How should signals be spaced on a 50 MPH approach? What intervals? The signals I use here are dwarfs with a single light lens.

JR MS Generic 04 Dwarf,<kuid2:45324:251102:1> at the junction for both tracks
JR MS Generic 05 Dwarf,<kuid2:45324:251103:1> approaching the junction along the mainline at 0.50 mile inetrvals

Priority markers do not give one train priority over another - so a priority 1 train will not get first access to a junction over a train of lower priority. Priority markers and levels simply control the paths trains take, not their schedule. See http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/How_to_Use_Track_Priority_Markers

I would place a track trigger on the main line at the first permissive signal, or even further back, that when triggered will lock the siding absolute signal to red and the points switched to the main line.

The track triggers have a range of up to 500 m each. I will experiment using two mainline triggers in tandem to give a total range of 2,000 m approaching the junction on the mainline. I'm using the TMS Rule to try to hold AI on its sidings whenever I or an AI mainline train approaches the junction. If AI should be already pulling out of the siding before I hit the trigger zone, it should give me over one mile to stop. While driving by hand I have the HUD pane religiously showing and watch signal states ahead on it.

The trigger does not have to have an effect radius set to cover the 500m (or 2000m) to the junction. A trigger with a normal effect radius of 20m could be placed 500m (or 2000m) from the junction. When the Pullman express passes over the trigger it is used to execute rules (e.g. Set Signal Extended Rule, Set Junctions Rule) that lock the siding signal at stop and the points to the main line.

After the Pullman has cleared the junction it would pass over another trigger that will release the locks on the signal and points.

Increasing the trigger radius of the junction lever might be the simplest solution, that way the junction will lock when your train approaches and prevent the AI from switching it back the other way.

http://trains.0catch.com/tutorial.html

http://www.trains.0catch.com/Bells Horns and Fooling the AI.pdf

http://trains.0catch.com/Tut5-WorkingWith Signals.htm

I read on "how to fool AI" with fake siding turnouts

You can also block a train by placing a loco, or a driveable signalman, on that fake siding, and drive it backwards a tad, to allow the mainline or branch line train to pass

Those links all lead to a website that Malwarebytes anti-malware flags as being infected with a trojan. Could be a false alert but go there at your own risk.

William

MP242 said:

http://trains.0catch.com/tutorial.html

http://www.trains.0catch.com/Bells Horns and Fooling the AI.pdf

http://trains.0catch.com/Tut5-WorkingWith Signals.htm

I read on "how to fool AI" with fake siding turnouts

You can also block a train by placing a loco, or a driveable signalman, on that fake siding, and drive it backwards a tad, to allow the mainline or branch line train to pass

Click to expand...

wreeder said:

Those links all lead to a website that Malwarebytes anti-malware flags as being infected with a trojan. Could be a false alert but go there at your own risk.

William

Click to expand...

I have been using those links and that site for years on end, and my PC is perfectly healthy, aside from being the slowest PC in the world. Everything that I have learned about Trainz I have learned from that website. There is no place safe on the Internet so if you're worried about Trojans malware and other adware's and other stuff that can infect your PC you should just pull out the plug and disconnected from the Internet. Most anti-viruses are hyperactive and will display a false positive saying that "Everything" on the Internet is infected with Trojans malware and other adware. Some anti-viruses actually take over control of your PC and start deleting programs, and files, that they feel have a positive infection, when in fact there was no infection at all. There is not a PC infection in the world that cannot be gotten rid of if you try hard enough. Almost all Payware antivirus's are complete garbage like Norton, Kasperchi, McAfee, Webroot, AVG, FireWire ect, etc. They have fancy spinning GIFs that make it look like they're actually doing something useful but they're in fact displaying false positives and you're paying for that defective antivirus thinking that it is actually doing something for you. One of the best programs out there is freeware, Glary Utilities, and along with Microsoft Security Essentuals, your PC can be safe

pware said:

The trigger does not have to have an effect radius set to cover the 500m (or 2000m) to the junction. A trigger with a normal effect radius of 20m could be placed 500m (or 2000m) from the junction. When the Pullman express passes over the trigger it is used to execute rules (e.g. Set Signal Extended Rule, Set Junctions Rule) that lock the siding signal at stop and the points to the main line.

After the Pullman has cleared the junction it would pass over another trigger that will release the locks on the signal and points.

Click to expand...

The Trigger Check in TS12 does not allow an event (eg. Set Junctions) to be associated with a specific trigger (eg. approach staging yard exit junction). I see no use for Trigger Check and/or Set Junctions in TS12 even. What I am trying is the Trigger Multiple Signals Rule. The presence of a mainline train within a trigger range will place the siding absolute signal in a red state and hopefully AI will not violate it. I see way to control a junction setting with a trigger in TS12 or any of the original Trainz powered by Jet.

It seems like this is only possible in TANE and later.

http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/How_to_Control_Junctions_in_Sessions

Hi try this it may help:- [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]http://www.boatztrainz.co.uk/turnout.html[/FONT]

Ok, I just tried the TMS Rule. My train approaches the junction on the mainline thus triggering the siding signal red. As I approach the junction, my signals progress from yellow to red and I stop at the junction. Both the waiting AI on the siding and I each have a red state at the convergence. AI, however, is holding the lever in his favor so I can't pass. AI can't go anywhere because his signal is red. I can't co anywhere because I have no switch control. It's a standoff. The only way I can pass is to command AI "Stop Train" and thus he releases the lever to me so I can pass. So after my train passes the switch I have to command AI to "Continue Schedule" then jump back to my train again. A messy situation.

My solution seems to be placing a dummy junction (invisible) between the siding signal and the real junction on the mainline. As the mainline train approaches, it will trigger the siding signal red using the TMS rule. After the mainline train passes the mainline junction, AI only then will have control of the real mainline lever as the TMS rule will terminate once the mainline train passes its trigger zone. By my own observations, AI will play with the settings of the dummy switch but leave the real switch alone while a mainline train is passing the mainline lever and the TMS rule is active. The dummy lever is kind of like a pacifier to play with in a baby's mouth to keep him occupied.

I do not understand the following statement.

JonMyrlennBailey said:

The Trigger Check in TS12 does not allow an event (eg. Set Junctions) to be associated with a specific trigger (eg. approach staging yard exit junction).

Click to expand...

Whether you are using TS12 (long removed from my system), TANE or TRS19, the Trigger Check Rule is a parent rule. The Set Junctions Rule is a child of that parent rule. That is how the Set Junctions is associated with the Trigger Check.

When the trigger is been activated by the particular consist, the Trigger Check Rule that is monitoring that trigger will execute its child rules so the Set Junction Rule will set the points to the main line and should be set to lock them against user and AI control.

pware said:

I do not understand the following statement. A picture is often worth a thousand words or more so here's a screenshot for clarification.



Whether you are using TS12 (long removed from my system), TANE or TRS19, the Trigger Check Rule is a parent rule. The Set Junctions Rule is a child of that parent rule. That is how the Set Junctions is associated with the Trigger Check.

When the trigger is been activated by the particular consist, the Trigger Check Rule that is monitoring that trigger will execute its child rules so the Set Junction Rule will set the points to the main line and should be set to lock them against user and AI control.

Click to expand...

Jon you are misunderstanding how this works.

The child rules are not added to the Trigger Check Rule itself. In the following example, which uses a Message Popup Rule instead of a Set Junctions Rule but the principle is the same.



The Message Popup Rule is not added as a child rule inside the Check Triggers Rule but sits in the Session Editor under the Trigger Check Rule and indented one level to the right.

I recommend the following links to you.

How to Use Track Triggers http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/How_to_Use_Track_Triggers
How to Use the Session Editor http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/How_to_Use_Session_Editor
How to Use Parent and Child Rules http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/How_to_Use_Parent_and_Child_Rules

pware said:

Jon you are misunderstanding how this works.

The child rules are not added to the Trigger Check Rule itself. In the following example, which uses a Message Popup Rule instead of a Set Junctions Rule but the principle is the same.

The Message Popup Rule is not added as a child rule inside the Check Triggers Rule but sits in the Session Editor under the Trigger Check Rule and indented one level to the right.

I recommend the following links to you.

How to Use Track Triggers http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/How_to_Use_Track_Triggers
How to Use the Session Editor http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/How_to_Use_Session_Editor
How to Use Parent and Child Rules http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/How_to_Use_Parent_and_Child_Rules

Click to expand...

The information in this Wiki Page applies to TANE, TRS19 and Trainz Plus.


I already know how to use Session Editor and Track Triggers as I have been using them for Trigger Multiple Signal Rule for several years now.
This Parent/Child thing is still sounding totally Greek to me.

I don't how to use this stuff as it pertains specifically to TS12. There is no Goggle-able information specifically for TS12 in this regard.
It's evidently not intuitive. People here fail to understand I'm still working with TS12. That's OK: my slick trick of using the dummy lever accomplishes
the desired result anyway.

It works exactly the same in TS12 as it does in TANE and TRS19.

You add the Trigger Check Rule to the Session Editor and configure it to the trigger and the consist you want. Exit the Trigger Check and go back to the Session Editor.

Then immediately below it in the Session Editor, the next level down, you add the Set Signal Rule (or whatever rule) and configure it. Exit the Rule and go back to the Session Editor.

Then, with the Signal Rule highlighted, you click the Right Arrow button at the bottom of the Session Editor. This moves the Signal rule one place to the right and makes it a Child of the Trigger Check Rule.

Basically one. needs to "think outside the box", or "think inside the box", to solve fooling AI.
Keeping things as simple as possible, without resorting to using complex programmed rules, is the key.

Which ever train gets closest to the signal first, that train controls the turnout, and the speeding train, on a downhill mainline gradient, may continue to slide right on through a stop signal.

KISS Keep It as Simple as possible

Jon, I have taken your map and modified it as shown below.



I have created two Trigger Check Rules as parent rules (as shown above). Detailed below:-



Whether you use both the Set Junctions and Set Signal Extended Rules (or other rules) is up to you but this is the structure that I would use in TS12, TANE and TRS19 - but not the only possible solution.

Just to clarify a few things.

JonMyrlennBailey said:

The information in this Wiki Page applies to TANE, TRS19 and Trainz Plus.

Click to expand...

Those words are mine. I added them to each of the wiki pages that I created (which includes all those that I recommended to you) because N3V support ended for TS12 in September 2018. I did not want to have to spend time adding sections that only applied to TS12 (and earlier versions). In any case I had removed TS12 from my system long ago so I would be unable to check what I had written with TS12. It basically tells readers that I only used TANE and TRS19 in creating the information and instructions on the page.

JonMyrlennBailey said:

I already know how to use Session Editor and Track Triggers as I have been using them for Trigger Multiple Signal Rule for several years now.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I have to doubt that since you were attempting to add the child rule to set the signal/switch inside the Trigger Check Rule.

JonMyrlennBailey said:

This Parent/Child thing is still sounding totally Greek to me.

Click to expand...

It was all Greek (or "Geek") to me as well until I loaded up some sessions that used lots of parent-child rules and studied them to see how they worked. To save others the time, effort and frustration, I decided to use what I had learned to create many of the Wiki Pages that are now on the "How-To Guide" Trainz Wiki site.

JonMyrlennBailey said:

People here fail to understand I'm still working with TS12. That's OK: my slick trick of using the dummy lever accomplishes the desired result anyway.

Click to expand...

One of the many things that I like about Trainz is that there are many different ways of doing the same thing. You are free to work with whatever version of Trainz you want but as the older versions are no longer supported practical advice will become harder to come by.

Peter, you have such a wonderful amount of patience.

William