Train Length in the steam era?

pitmilly said:

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However, Thurmond (at elevation 1,059 ft) to Hinton (at elevation 1,377 ft) is some 37 route miles when following the river and if my math is correct, equates to a mean average gradient of less than 0.5%. OK it's still a gradient but not very significant by any national standard.

When I made my admittedly bold statement about not being able to find a Trainz steam loco capable of hauling 100 loaded cars up the gradients of the Hinton and Coal Country routes I had in mind the lengthy 1.5 to 3.0% grades that are a feature of all the branches on Hinton and on the "main line" of Coal Country. My experiences have brought me to the viewpoint that 25 x 50Ton cars is around the maximum for one steam locomotive (realistic mode) on any of these routes. Even then it has to be a really good e-spec. You can double and triple head and include any number of pushers/bankers. But that's another story

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True, but you have to consider how things were in the real world of the C&O route's mainline route via the New River Gorge and its branch line operations that ventured into the highlands during the late steam era.

Historically speaking, during the steam era on the New River division, there were zero -- count 'em, zero -- steam locomotives hauling "100 loaded cars" up the gradients of branch lines on the C&O's New River Division. All of the branches from the mainline run into the highlands, and in those highlands are where the mines were located. Thus, empty, unloaded hopper cars moved up those grades and loads moved down them. So, for example, on the Piney Creek branch, 100 empty car trains usually used two 2-6-6-2 Mallets to deliver empties to the yard in Raleigh (a location just off the boundaries of the Trainz New River route), and two 2-6-6-2 Mallets would take 100 loads back down to the Quinnimont yard. Even shorter trains when up/down the Loup Creek branch from Thurmond that were under the control of a single steam loco, or double-headed steamers, etc. The only loads going up grade on the branches were "supplies" going to the towns in the highlands -- anything from boxcar loads of food and merchandise for the company owned and privately owned stores and parts and supplies for wholesalers, to car loads of whisky, beer, and wine for the saloons.

In general, long trains (~100 cars or so) moved on the mainline (usually handled by the H8s) and short trains (less than 100 cars, with 25 or so being more typical) traveled the branch lines (usually handed by 2-6-6-2 Mallets) and 2-8-0s.

pitmilly said:

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However, Thurmond (at elevation 1,059 ft) to Hinton (at elevation 1,377 ft) is some 37 route miles when following the river and if my math is correct, equates to a mean average gradient of less than 0.5%. OK it's still a gradient but not very significant by any national standard.

When I made my admittedly bold statement about not being able to find a Trainz steam loco capable of hauling 100 loaded cars up the gradients of the Hinton and Coal Country routes I had in mind the lengthy 1.5 to 3.0% grades that are a feature of all the branches on Hinton and on the "main line" of Coal Country. My experiences have brought me to the viewpoint that 25 x 50Ton cars is around the maximum for one steam locomotive (realistic mode) on any of these routes. Even then it has to be a really good e-spec. You can double and triple head and include any number of pushers/bankers. But that's another story

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I'm guessing you haven't looked into what kind of forces are involved in moving tonnage like this (100 loaded hoppers) up a grade and what kind of force a large steam locomotive could produce. Maybe you should look at a few figures and let them draw you back towards reality.

Lets just pick something I've been playing with recently for motive power. A USRA 2-10-2B Heavy Santa Fe type loco. Rated at 73800 lbf tractive effort (0 to 10 mph for this loco) - a little more than a C&O H6 and less than the USRA 2-6-6-2 used on the Barrett to Danville run mentioned in your post above. It was used for heavy drag freight work after introduction in 1919. Some were still in use up to the end of steam in the US say 1956.

So the "not significant" 0.5% is more than this loco can handle.

The "moderate" 1.0 % is more that any single (real world) steam loco I'm aware of can handle. The C&O H8 2-6-6-6 mentioned in prior posts is rated at "only" 110200 lbf. It would stall out on a 0.62% considering other resistance factors and if you added in 1 or more curves on the grade it would not make 0.6%.

At 1.5% any single loco capable of producing that force will start breaking couplers back in the steam era. IIRC the standard grade c couplers in use up to 70's was limited to 250000 lbf working load.

At 3.0% let your imagination take over because you need 6 of these 2-10-2s (or 4 H8s) plus a smaller loco helping out distributed throughout the train - try handling that in Trainz. Not many railroads would.

I do not believe you will find any steam locos in Trainz with realistic especs that can handle 100 50 ton loaded hoppers on 1.5 to 3.0% grades. A 1.5% grade is a very significant grade for any railroad. I don't believe any single steam loco in real life could handle the loads you described.

I'll give you my calculated estimate of what the USRA 2-10-2B could handle on a long 1.5% straight (no curve) grade:
25 loaded 50 ton hoppers with top speed at the crest of 10 mph or less.

On a 3% that would drop down to 10.

Bob Pearson

There are some old dinky locos with utterly ridiculously high powered enginespecs, that could pull a 200 car loaded train up a 10% grade, even adding the invisible AI brake onto the train, would help boost a super long heavy train up a ridiculously steep grade

wva-usa said:

I'll have to disagree.... Without a "realistic" e-spec, a given Trainz steam locomotive won't be able to duplicate the pulling power of the prototype... Some steamer have them, others don't.

the performance of the real C&O 2-6-6-6s, e.g., /newsletter.pdf

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Hi Lloyd (wva-usa),
Please excuse me for this off-topic, but is because your not-responding to me at the private emails.
I wanted to discuss with you about the possibility of making freeware my USRA Mallet 2-6-6-2 payware locomotives (with your sound, script and smoke) available on your website. If you're agree, I want to make them available so, on my website.
Best Regards,
Radu

To: wva-usa and Bob Pearson - re your posts #19, 21 & 22.

Thank you both for your comments, thoughts and information.

Might I expand on my earlier statements because I think something got well and truly “lost in translation”.

The initial query was Lonnie asking the average (?) number of cars in a US freight train during the steam era. There were various replies - 100 plus was a recurring answer – I responded with published details of a real coal train in 1955, its tonnage, route, mileages, staging yards, gradients and motive power. I concluded with a throw-a-way remark by saying that my primary Trainz concerns were Realistic/Cab mode driving in the Appalachian Coal road country and getting the trip workings up and down the gradients of those lines. Consequently the 1955 C & O trip problems weren’t normally a part of my Trainz operating routine.

I also stated, somewhat ambiguously, that 100 car consists didn’t exist in my REALISTIC/CAB mode operations, as aside from any other factors, I hadn’t found a Trainz steam locomotive capable of hauling them up and down the gradients. In truth I had never expected to find one although I’m told that AI/DCC mode of operating can produce some staggering, if not exactly believable performances.

Similarly, I doubted that any real steam locomotive with a 100 car/3.0% gradient capability had ever existed, at anytime, anywhere on this planet. You have confirmed it.

Finally, I stated that 25 X 50ton capacity cars was in my experience around the maximum load for one steam locomotive on the gradients of the two mentioned Trainz routes. Again, further clarification was needed – I should have specified the principal Hinton branches and Coal Country.

The 4 mile 200 ft climb from the New River Mine at Pax up to the tunnel mouth above Pax Siding varies from a 0.77% to a 3.38% gradient and is the opening feature of Hinton’s New River Mining Coal Run session. The main players are an H8 2-6-6-6 and 25 x 50 ton C&O Coal Gondolas; 2,618 tons fully loaded. This climb is feasible, provided as the driver you get all the settings right at exactly the right moment.

I use a clone of Coal Country as the nucleus of my WIP PRR Osceola Mills Route. The 2.3/4 mile, 143ft climb (modified – 1.48%, 1.79% 2.40% gradients) between the original towns of Parker up to Peabody impose a limit of 11 x50 ton PRR GLa Hoppers (1,609 tons) on a PRR (K&L) Isa 2-10-0. I’ve tried to keep the ruling gradient on the new sections down to 1.2%

I do not know how close (or remote) these two Trainz examples are to the real thing when set in comparable circumstance but the latter PRR example would seem to be approaching the figures put forward by Bob for the USRA 2-10-2.

My apologies to you both if my loosely termed utterings caused concern.

Regards

John

Here's two cases of steam locomotives pulling 100+ car trains. First, is Norfolk & Western 2-6-6-4 #1218 pulling a 100-car coal train in 1987.

And here we see Union Pacific 4-6-6-4 #3985 topping Archer Hill at 35 miles per hour with 143 double-stack intermodal cars tied onto its coupler.

Most railroad in their Employee timetables and special instructions had restrictions based on Locomotive type and Grade of the route that listed Maximum Tonnage allowed for the Locomotive type and Also had tonnage restrictions for some Bridges as well. This tonnage would then be Divided up by car weight to give the Number of cars the train would be allowed to carry. For Example a Burlington route train pulled by lets say a K4 class 4-6-0 would be allowed to pull more tonnage between Lincoln Nebraska and My Home town of Ashland, because of it's somewhat flat route then it would be allowed to pull between Ashland and Grenta Nebraska, because of the 1% grade of Melia Hill.