Train Length in the steam era?

Quick question.
Is there a reference or guide line for how long trains cold be in the steam era? I understand that factors such as engine availability of grade over the give route could be factors. Most of the images i could find showed about 40-50. Does that seem right for a mild grade with something like a 2-8-4 Berkshire? I'm looking to set up some express AI trains pulling mixed consist or coal to run through my layout.

Last time I actually hand counted rail cars on a modern train it was @137 rail cars. Today's DPU trains can be insanely longer. In 1930 I would imagine that the PRR, B&O, or NYC ran steam powered freight trains @ 100 rail cars, on what is now the NEC area rail lines, which have a very nonexistent, or very slight gradient, at speeds @ 60 mph, or greater. Even from Philadelphia all the way to Altoona, Baltimore, and to NYC, the track speeds were very fast, as the gradients were very slight, enabling very long freights, at high speeds. However on the "mountain" grades trains were broken up into smaller sections, and reduced speeds. Today they oftentimes have stalls on steep grades due to either defective/failing locomotives, or miscalculations of particular loco capabilities, and train weight and length. They used very scientific calculations, but mostly used a scientific calculation educated best guess of what train length successfully ran the grade in previous operating sessions, then a rule was established on how many loco's to add onto a trains weight/length to prevent stalls, on gradients in a particular area. Big wigs in Corporate came up with the slide ruler, fantasy brain fart scientific calculation, of running an 800 car, 16 loco, iron ore Jenny "Super Train" train from Morrisville to Altoona. The bad idea had so many broken knuckles by the distance to Paoli, that the train was broken up into many, many shorter segments, and the "brilliant idea" was permanently filed in the cylindrical file cabinet. In awesome Australia they commonly operated ridiculously long iron ore Jenny trains for decades, and one fairly recent one had a ludicrously catastrophic derailment resulting in the scrapping of a huge number of absolutely twisted up rail cars

Longest train pulled by a steam engine

Try this Thread, go into lower Messages, it will give you some examples of number of cars with Steam Engines

[h=1]Longest train pulled by a steam engine[/h]


http://cs.trains.com/members/dknelson/default.aspx

In his book "Trains in Transition" Lucius Beebe had a number of captions under photos of perfectly ordinary 2-8-2s and noted they were pulling 100 cars. These were typically Midwestern shots, not mountain railroading. Cars were lighter back then of course; on the other hand they usually had friction bearings not roller bearings. I always assumed a 2-8-0 on level track was good for 30 to 50 cars (obviously a huge Reading or D&H 2-8-0 is a whole different machine than a Union Pacific 2-8-0) while a Mikado should be good for 40 to 75 cars again on level track. The Nickle Plate Berkshires could haul long trains, over 75 cars, at speed.
Speaking of strong don't forget the DM&IR yellow stones -- massive engines with smaller drivers than a Big Boy and quite possibly more tractive effort.

Beebe could get fancy with his writing and it might be he did not count the cars up to 100, he really just meant "lots and lots of cars." But on level straight track it would seem possible for a Mike to pull 100 cars. Getting a train started was always the hardest thing for steam. Running at speed was the easiest (diesels are just the opposite). The Pennsylvania RR Class T 4-4-4-4 was so slippery that 0-6-0 switchers would shove a passenger train out of a depot if it was pulled by a T-1. The Milwaukee Road also sometimes needed a shove out of the Milwaukee Depot. There is a famous story about how the crew of the 0-6-0 was not able to uncouple from the Hiawatha after it left Milwaukee for the twin cities -- the tower operator at Duplainville was surprised to see the train go by at 100 mph with an 0-6-0 coupled behind with a terrified looking crew and the drivers spinning madly.
Dave Nelson

Just to add that at least in urban areas there was often a law limiting the amount of time a train could block a road crossing. In Birmingham this was no more than 10 minutes and that had the effect of limiting train length regardless of the motive power.

I took Vanderbilt Road to get to my high school in the 70s and often got stopped at the road crossing by a train entering the large yard to the north.

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5497066,-86.7896671,452m/data=!3m1!1e3

William

wreeder said:

Just to add that at least in urban areas there was often a law limiting the amount of time a train could block a road crossing. In Birmingham this was no more than 10 minutes and that had the effect of limiting train length regardless of the motive power.

I took Vanderbilt Road to get to my high school in the 70s and often got stopped at the road crossing by a train entering the large yard to the north.

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5497066,-86.7896671,452m/data=!3m1!1e3

William

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I was thinking about that reading MP242's comment about the multi hundred car train! I thought, no mater how much I like trains, watching 700 cars go by while sitting in my car might get a little annoying! It started me thinking about the big unit trains out of the Powder River area. I am not a operations expert. I was thinking they must run a very specific route to specific yards to get broken down and minimize crossings. I was thinking about the truck terminals that handle tandem trailers. Straight out to the highway then strait off the highway. Too many cars and my ADD kicks in anyway.

I spent some time looking around that map. Open pit coal mining, coke plants, cement plants, new auto unloading, multiple scrap yards and a hump yard. It looks like a Philskene route come to life.

William

wreeder said:

I spent some time looking around that map. Open pit coal mining, coke plants, cement plants, new auto unloading, multiple scrap yards and a hump yard. It looks like a Philskene route come to life.

William

Click to expand...

I agree. I am a Philskene "The Trestle Master!" fan also .

Freight trains in Nebraska will block dozens of road crossings if they stop at a red signal. These super long, unit coal, and oil, trains have many DPU locomotives cut in, front, mid train, and rear, and operate as priority 1 freights, with experienced dispatchers keen on keeping the mainline open, getting them out of the way onto super long passing sidings, and express sent to very distant locations, or very large mega freight yards ASAP. One high priority produce train has a guaranteed delivery date of within 72 hours from the California basin, to Kearny NJ. The Tropicana OJ train runs 3 times per week from Bradenton FL, to Kearny NJ

Modern freights on CSX, NS, CN, CPR, and UPRR run anywhere between 10,500 to 16000 feet. That's 2 to 3 miles in length, or close to it. They freights also have distributed power units (DPUs) and sometimes locomotives on the end as well. Imagine what kind of issues these cause when they tie up a town due to a broken coupler or hose.

About 1 year ago I noticed that CSX was now making a new practice of running 2 locos head end, and 1 or 2 more DPU locos mid train, and on very rare case's 1 or 2 more DPU loco's rear end.

The majority of the time they run 2 loco's head end, and 1 DPU loco mid train

I haven't counted how many railcars

In terms of train length, another factor to consider is that there is a limit to the amount of leakage in the train line. In practical terms the pressure at the rear (caboose) of the train's brake line must be within a set amount of the front {locomotive} pressure, additionally it may not leak more than a set pressure over a set time. Determining this is part of the purpose of the initial terminal brake test. More modern cars tend to "keep" air better, meaning that more cars can be added to a train, however cold weather can still reduce train length by increasing leakage.

I would like to friendly remind everyone that the question is about steam era train length, not modern era train length. Most people replying seemed to have overlooked that detail :hehe:

Also the economy of the time, more cars moved in WWI and WWII and a lot less from 1930-1940(grate depression).

They would have needed more cars to move the same amount of stuff then compared to now just because cars were smaller then. IIRC, California had a law prohibiting trains of more than 100 cars up until the start of the second world war.

Communist countries wery deeply affected by stupid propaganda from SSSR in the past, part of it made so called "heavy haul movement" imported to the Czechoslovakia from SSSR in the fifties. Heaviest train ever hauled on the CSD railway network was coal freight train weighting 8272mt, it was consist of 121 train cars (484 axles) hauled by two 556 class locos (with third 556 on sloped part of the trip) in 1958.

If I may enter into this conversation I know the original poster was asking for a technical solution, but in the interest of Trainz and setting up AI trains I would stick with the 40 to 50 car train. My reasoning is like on my route I have AI trains running that size as "traffic" trains because anything longer isn't as visually appealing or practical for just traffic.

Dave

I have old 1950s Trains mags with Berkshires hauling 80 car coal drags and even the DRGW narrow gauge 2-8-2's ran trains of 40 cars.
Theres this
N&W A 1218 2-6-6-4
The A class was the N&W's Challenger also built in Roanoke. The A class was not streamlined at all. They had a top speed of 70 mph. The A's would haul Fast freights and heavy coal trains up Blue Ridge. They would haul passenger trains if they were the only locomotive available. They would double head 100 to 140 car long coal train up to the summit then drop off the second locomotive. Afterwards they would grab 100 more cars at the summit siding from a set out train.
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/norfolk-and-western-blue-ridge.2901/

Way back in April 1956, Trains magazine printed an article written by David P Morgan entitled “Tide 470. This describes the journey of two Chesapeake and Ohio, 50 Ton capacity Hoppers from Wharton No 2 Mine at Barrett, West Virginia through to their ultimate destination at Newport News. Their 546 mile journey from the mine began a little after noon on Thursday June 2 and ended at the transhipment dock sometime after midday on Sunday June 5, 1955. For the record, the article was later used as the introductory chapter in Tony Koester’s book, “The Model Railroader’s Guide to Coal Railroading”.

The journey was made up of 6 elements:-

1. June 2 - 2.15 to 4.26 p.m. - Barrett to Danville - approx. 23 miles - loco Schenectady USRA 2-6-6-2 compound No 1498 with 105 cars – 6200 tons net.
2. June 3 - 6.40 a.m. to 12.29 p.m. - Danville - St Albans - Handley - approx. 65 miles - Extra 2731 - Loco – Kanawha 2-8-4 No 2731 with 135 cars.
3. June 3 - 1.15 p.m. to 6.15 p.m. - Handley to Hinton - approx. 73 miles - Extra 7089 Loco EMD F7 A-B-A combo 4500HP with 145 cars. (Elevation 631 ft upto 1,382 ft but ruling grade less than 0.5%).
4. June 3 - 10.45 p.m. to June 4 – 4.07 a.m - Hinton – Alleghany - Clifton Forge – approx. 79 miles - Extra 7089 – Loco EMD F7 A-B-A combo 4500HP with 100 cars – 8200 tons gross. (Max elevation 2072 ft at Alleghany but ruling grade 0.57%). (Takes refuge siding at Alleghgany to allow passage of “George Washington”)
5. June 4 - 11.00 a.m. to 11.30 p.m. - Clifton Forge – Lynchburg – Gladstone – Richmond - approx. 231 miles. ExtraXXXX Locos - 2 x EMD GP7 3000HP with 160 cars - 14000 tons gross - 11,200 tons net. Relatively level terrain.
6. June 5 - 3.17 a.m. - 6.29 a.m - Fulton Yard Richmond to Newport News approx. 75 miles. Extra XXXX Locos - 2 x EMD GP7 3000HP with 160 cars ( plus 2 x GP7 pushers for first 4 miles at 0.63% grade PLUS assistance from 1000HP yard engine to start tonnage on grade).

This doesn’t provide the one line answer to Lonnie’s original question but it might serve to illustrate some of the complexities and the issues that were involved in sorting about 50 different grades of coal and hauling each hopper to the right destination.

On the Trainz front, as a matter of personal choice, I prefer to give AI a miss, “make my own steam” and drive in Realistic mode. I may be looking in the wrong place but as yet I haven’t found a Trainz steam loco that appears to be capable of taking 100 plus loaded cars up the gradients of “Hinton”, “Coal Country”, et al, so the question has never really been a problem.

John

pitmilly said:

... I may be looking in the wrong place but as yet I haven’t found a Trainz steam loco that appears to be capable of taking 100 plus loaded cars up the gradients of “Hinton”, “Coal Country”, et al, so the question has never really been a problem.

John

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I'll have to disagree.... Without a "realistic" e-spec, a given Trainz steam locomotive won't be able to duplicate the pulling power of the prototype... Some steamer have them, others don't.

The Trainz (payware) C&O H-8 2-6-6-6 can basically duplicate the performance of the real C&O 2-6-6-6s, e.g., I can start a train of 120 loaded hopper cars (twin hoppers typical of the era of the H-8s) from the coaling station at Thurmond and take that train all the way to Hinton. To get that train moving from a dead start you'll need to have mastered the technique of "taking slack" however... The first paragraph of this document will explain "taking slack" if you're not familiar with the term: http://www.csme-eprr.com/newsletter/newsletter.pdf

wva-usa said:

I'll have to disagree.... Without a "realistic" e-spec, a given Trainz steam locomotive won't be able to duplicate the pulling power of the prototype... Some steamer have them, others don't.

The Trainz (payware) C&O H-8 2-6-6-6 can basically duplicate the performance of the real C&O 2-6-6-6s, e.g., I can start a train of 120 loaded hopper cars (twin hoppers typical of the era of the H-8s) from the coaling station at Thurmond and take that train all the way to Hinton. To get that train moving from a dead start you'll need to have mastered the technique of "taking slack" however... The first paragraph of this document will explain "taking slack" if you're not familiar with the term: http://www.csme-eprr.com/newsletter/newsletter.pdf

Click to expand...

I'm with you on most of your points.

I agree, good e-specs are essential if you are going to drive in realistic mode and achieve anything remotely like steam prototype performance. Sadly there are a number of Trainz locos (US, British and probably other nationalities) that look the part but whose performance in REALISTIC mode is less than good. The H8 is indeed good and yes, I have also learned the technique and managed to get it to start and haul some very heavy prototypical loads. In the right terrain.

However, Thurmond (at elevation 1,059 ft) to Hinton (at elevation 1,377 ft) is some 37 route miles when following the river and if my math is correct, equates to a mean average gradient of less than 0.5%. OK it's still a gradient but not very significant by any national standard.

When I made my admittedly bold statement about not being able to find a Trainz steam loco capable of hauling 100 loaded cars up the gradients of the Hinton and Coal Country routes I had in mind the lengthy 1.5 to 3.0% grades that are a feature of all the branches on Hinton and on the "main line" of Coal Country. My experiences have brought me to the viewpoint that 25 x 50Ton cars is around the maximum for one steam locomotive (realistic mode) on any of these routes. Even then it has to be a really good e-spec. You can double and triple head and include any number of pushers/bankers. But that's another story