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Thread: Track marks are random things.

  1. #1
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    Question Track marks are random things.

    AI doesn't stop trains at the same place, right on a dime, 100% of the time, at least not in TS12.

    How can computers and software lack such precision that the distance stopped from a track mark can change a few feet each and every time?

    Computing is supposed to be about precise mathematical calculations.

    I have always thought the human race invented computers for sheer accuracy and precision, not just lightening speed. After all, the American navy did first employ computers during World War Two for accurate shell placement of fired guns from rocking and rolling ships.

    What I desire most from any gaming software is precision. Precision in regards to speed, acceleration , deceleration, distance, time, places and measurement.

    It is a little disheartening when my trucks back up to a dock and crash into them one time then park so far away from them the next time that a forklift could not even drive across the wide gap into the trailer. I wish the Couple command would be slower and gentler too. There is no need to slam into another car at 5 MPH. There is no reason in cyberspace for the still car to even move when the loco hooks up to it.
    Last edited by JonMyrlennBailey; November 18th, 2019 at 07:51 PM.
    TANE SP2 Build 90945, downloaded Dec. 2017, TS12 Build 61388, downloaded Feb. 2018, American citizen, Lawton, OK

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    I think you are expecting way too much of Trainz, and especially the idiosyncrasies in AI
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    Quote Originally Posted by MP242 View Post
    I think you are expecting way too much of Trainz, and especially the idiosyncrasies in AI
    I was just wondering why it lacks precision being that it is software.
    Numbers, calculable values, are constant: they never change.
    If I punch "9" "x" "5" "=" into my calculator repeatedly I consistently get "45": not "49" sometimes, "43" other times and "45" once in a while.
    I expect all computer software to perform consistently. Computer science is pure binary numbers-crunching right at the very bottom.

    The quality of software engineering for Trainz would never be of a high enough grade as for programs which run autonomous automobiles with real people inside.
    Last edited by JonMyrlennBailey; November 19th, 2019 at 01:28 AM.
    TANE SP2 Build 90945, downloaded Dec. 2017, TS12 Build 61388, downloaded Feb. 2018, American citizen, Lawton, OK

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    Precision, Perfection, Accuracy, and Consistency ? Well that just ain't a gonna be happening in Trainz. Unless you drive manually. But you will get through all of these great tribulations just OK. As none of your loading docks, trucks, or their cargo ever get damaged in this virtual reality video game cartoon simulator called Trainz.
    Last edited by MP242; November 18th, 2019 at 08:53 PM.
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    Do human drivers have the same precision as computers? The same driver on the same train on two different days would not stop at exactly the same spot. Different loadings, track and weather conditions, different distractions, etc all come into play.

    I always thought that the AI was simulating a human, not a computer.

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    Hi JonMyrlennBailey
    There are many factors that come into play with the AI's operation, most importantly the train physics. Although the AI operates under the simplified 'DCC' physics, these do take into account some of the environment/consist data for train running. In particular the gradient, train weight, and individual vehicle physics.

    The AI is then programmed to approximate the operation of the train by a 'person' (ie it can only see signals so far in front of it).

    All of this combined will mean that the AI will vary in it's operations a little each time it runs, especially stopping distance as this is 'estimated' by the game when it tries to stop (there is some control via the enginespec asset, but it is not a fixed distance).
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZecMurphy View Post
    Hi JonMyrlennBailey
    There are many factors that come into play with the AI's operation, most importantly the train physics. Although the AI operates under the simplified 'DCC' physics, these do take into account some of the environment/consist data for train running. In particular the gradient, train weight, and individual vehicle physics.

    The AI is then programmed to approximate the operation of the train by a 'person' (ie it can only see signals so far in front of it).

    All of this combined will mean that the AI will vary in it's operations a little each time it runs, especially stopping distance as this is 'estimated' by the game when it tries to stop (there is some control via the enginespec asset, but it is not a fixed distance).
    Regards

    Thank you, Murphy:

    It's not that Trainz CAN'T be that precise, it was intentionally programmed to have random occurrences, varying stopping distances from track marks, to simulate human imperfections: I see now.

    It probably uses some sort of random number generator to calculate the next stopping point. It pulls a number between -5 and 5 to determine how far, in feet, it shall deviate from the numerical setting of the track mark range. The track mark range might be set to 5 meters: about 15 feet. If the random number pulled is a 3, it will then stop the train about 18 feet from the mark. If it pulls a zero, it will stop right on the money. If it pulls a -5, it will stop only 10 feet from the mark. That is my theory anyway. It is not just weight and vehicle speed. My trucks are always the same weight when approaching the dock and approach it always at the same speed: 5 mph. They are set on repeating AI schedules to visit the same loading docks over and over again. Yet, sometimes they are about two feet in front of the dock when they come to a standstill and other times they (same trucks, same weights, same drivers, same speeds, same bat channels) run right into it.

    RR trains don't require the degree of accuracy that trucks require when backing up to docks.
    Last edited by JonMyrlennBailey; November 18th, 2019 at 09:45 PM.
    TANE SP2 Build 90945, downloaded Dec. 2017, TS12 Build 61388, downloaded Feb. 2018, American citizen, Lawton, OK

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    If a tractor trailer is 50 foot from a loading dock in one session, and in another session it is 45 foot from the loading dock, both will act with different physics, and will act differently in each case. Anyway, don't expect this to be fixed in your lifetime. You will just have to live with imperfection.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MP242 View Post
    If a tractor trailer is 50 foot from a loading dock in one session, and in another session it is 45 foot from the loading dock, both will act with different physics, and will act differently in each case. Anyway, don't expect this to be fixed in your lifetime. You will just have to live with imperfection.
    You are right, it's nothing more than a little spilled milk. It actually happens within the same session as the truck repeats its rounds on the route. Track mark error on backing to dock can vary within about 3 feet.
    TANE SP2 Build 90945, downloaded Dec. 2017, TS12 Build 61388, downloaded Feb. 2018, American citizen, Lawton, OK

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    Perhaps you should exclusively use that new pickup truck that precisely backs that boat into the lake. The guy in the ad says it's simply awesome. Everyone should have one because we are not capable of backing a boat. Me? I'll stick with farmer Smith. That man can back a full hay wagon into a barn with exactly one inch clearance on both sides! No computer needed. No 5 camera view needed. (If not obvious.. This comment is tongue-in-check)
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    The close answer given by Zec in #7 is valid. You are not specific if the "anomaly" happens with the same engine-consist. Surely, the inertia of an engine is not the same as another. Couple it with the number of cars carried and other variables and you get different stopping location. To be exact, take X engine without cars and send it to X trackmark. Note the exact point where the front of the engine stops. Do it again and look at where it stops. Different? you have a case. The same? you don't.

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    Jon,
    I do assume that you have the Trackmarks set to as small a distance as possible?


    Dave
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    By distance, you mean radius? If so, I set them to 1 meter. Note that some locos are set to slow down to stop diferently one to the other. You can see this in the config file pertaining to engine spec. There are numbers at "acc: and "decc". If these numbers are set too high, the loco will take much longer to stop. Is possible that if that is the case, the loco will overshot the small set radius of the trackmark. What I do is take a good reference numbers from a loco eng config file I am confortable with, and copy them to an engine that I consider is misbehaving. There are stances when you have to play with the distance radius to obtain the desired effect. Remember that trackmarks are used for many things, not only stop trains.

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