Overly aggressive AI. I witnessed an AI drive derail my train!

JCitron

Trainzing since 12-2003
Okay this is frustrating!

The user-controlled trains should have equal control of the tracks just as the AI do. I was running a substantial driver's session last night that I had operated for well over 4 hours. I busied myself switching industries and running a local freight up to a quarry and back. The plan was to pick up concrete, gravel, and granite and then return back to the main yard to interchange with the mainline after bringing up empties and dropping off boxcars and tanks at the other industries along the way. I made it all the way back to about a mile or two from the main yard when an AI train came along and flipped the junction under my train!

Yes! I actually saw him do it. He then proceeded along and drove through my derailed hopper cars as if they didn't exist. I was able to remedy the situation by editing and resetting up the derailed hoppers, but that broke the momentum and aura that was created by the initial run. I got my train back to the yard and quit driving after that.

I have had this occur before, but I thought it was due to the kind of freight car I was using, or the switch-lever flipped back to default position. This, however, is not the case. To further test what I witnessed, I watched AI drivers in operation. If an AI driver is stopped at a red signal due to a junction not set in its favor, the driver will repeatedly flip the junction lever as if to test it. With each flip, the signal ahead turned green and the driver lurched forward and then stopped when the signal turned red. This flipping is what caught my train as it was crossing over the points into the yard lead. The AI driver that derailed my train did just that. He fiddled with the lever until it worked as if to jiggle the lock on a door until it can be opened. A user can't do that. We suffer from locked junctions.

In another location, I saw something odd that we can never do. In this location, an AI train was stopped for a signal ahead due to another train occupying a station. The stopped AI was close to a junction, much closer than the 20 meter radius around the junction lever. This was not a modified junction where the radius is adjusted such as what I've done on industrial leads where I need to switch tightly. This was a mainline branch off to another route location. Here the AI taking the branch to the left was able to flip the switch that the other AI driver was nearly on top of as he was waiting for the train ahead to pull out of the station. If this was a user-controlled train, the user would have to wait until the AI driver ahead pulled ahead and into the station.

The way I look at it, the user does not exist in the realm of the AI drivers, but the AI drivers exist in the realm of the user when driving. This separate world is what causes the interaction issues we all have been observing. To operate properly it should be setup so that whatever applies to the human driver also applies to the AI.

We can't flip levers so neither can they. Rules are the rules.
 
At one time or another I have experienced pretty much all you have above. Plus, when the consist is stopped at the signal and it changes briefly, lurching the train a little, it may do so until the head loco passes the signal, and then, makes a fault of passing a red light: Penalty for 2 minutes without power. It is a flaw. Been with this for way too long, even if 'This New Version is the Best Ever". Anyhow, your description is well depicted and accurate.
 
At one time or another I have experienced pretty much all you have above. Plus, when the consist is stopped at the signal and it changes briefly, lurching the train a little, it may do so until the head loco passes the signal, and then, makes a fault of passing a red light: Penalty for 2 minutes without power. It is a flaw. Been with this for way too long, even if 'This New Version is the Best Ever". Anyhow, your description is well depicted and accurate.

Yes the SPAD thing... I saw that too as well.

Yeah the best simulation ever...
 
Same here. Happens all the time (i.e. TOO OFTEN). I also get penalties for bad driving (really AI driving) and an Emergency stop/ 2 min cooling off period. The lurching AI, if real, would be mechanically expensive to a railroad. To N3V the cost is zero. So much for reality.

The beautification has been positive:), but the time has arrived to fix the Functional Faults in the product.
 
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Or just STOP driving by AI control, Problem fixed
That would be half of the fun. I maybe an odd user, but AI runs my passenger trains, ships, airplanes and even a horse buggy. I manually, run freights. Doing this is most interesting and not a "half". Believe me, I have sharpen and adjusted commands, signals and directional markers, so AI do run pretty exact to my set expectation. However, from time to time a train derails for a reason that defies my logic: If a train performs a task over and over faithfully, why somewhere down time, it derails where before it did not? And I end with a train you can't see floating far away at the border of the route? It maybe a joke of N3V, but to us is aggravating.
 
That would be half of the fun. I maybe an odd user, but AI runs my passenger trains, ships, airplanes and even a horse buggy. I manually, run freights. Doing this is most interesting and not a "half". Believe me, I have sharpen and adjusted commands, signals and directional markers, so AI do run pretty exact to my set expectation. However, from time to time a train derails for a reason that defies my logic: If a train performs a task over and over faithfully, why somewhere down time, it derails where before it did not? And I end with a train you can't see floating far away at the border of the route? It maybe a joke of N3V, but to us is aggravating.


I agree. I let the AI run the boring commuter trains that stop at every platform and repeat while I too go off and run the freights. My situation is similar with the AI will suddenly do stupid things like trundle down a branch line and get confused while ignoring direction marks and even speed limits. Sometimes restarting the session fixes that, but not always. For the most part putting in wait commands in the driver's session at the beginning has helped initialize the driver command sequence as if to let everything settle down first. A 5 second wait seems to be enough most of the time.
 
Hi John
The AI should not be able to change a junction that is occupied/locked by any other train, either player or AI.

If you are able to reproduce driving the same consist through the junction with the same AI approaching (ie reproduce just that situation without needing to play through the whole session), and reproduce the AI taking control of the junction by doing this, then please submit this to the bug report form at https://n3vgames.typeform.com/to/xRdryu

This way we can investigate why this is occurring. Unfortunately, with issues such as this, unless we can test and reproduce the issue we often cannot find the cause of it.

We have, however, found that in some situations the scripts in some traincars may cause junctions to behave strangely. There was a particular case some time back where a train under AI control would change a junction ahead of it correctly, but when traincars with particular scripts travelled through the junction the lock was released and the junction reset. Unfortunately I cannot remember which traincars or script was involved, I just recall it was predominantly seen with US content. That said, I think this particular issue may have been resolved in a TANE update or in TRS19, but it's possibly a similar cause with your issue.

In that case it may also be worth seeing if you can reproduce the same issue with the same length consist using the default 'custom' 40ft boxcars (The ones based off the NKP High Speed Freight pack's boxcar), and see if the AI is still able to throw the same junction under the train.

The other thing is, what sort of signalling surrounds the junction? Is there a signal immediately before the junction, or is it some distance before (ie protecting several junctions, not just the one showing this issue)?

Regards
 
Hi John
The AI should not be able to change a junction that is occupied/locked by any other train, either player or AI.

If you are able to reproduce driving the same consist through the junction with the same AI approaching (ie reproduce just that situation without needing to play through the whole session), and reproduce the AI taking control of the junction by doing this, then please submit this to the bug report form at https://n3vgames.typeform.com/to/xRdryu

This way we can investigate why this is occurring. Unfortunately, with issues such as this, unless we can test and reproduce the issue we often cannot find the cause of it.

We have, however, found that in some situations the scripts in some traincars may cause junctions to behave strangely. There was a particular case some time back where a train under AI control would change a junction ahead of it correctly, but when traincars with particular scripts travelled through the junction the lock was released and the junction reset. Unfortunately I cannot remember which traincars or script was involved, I just recall it was predominantly seen with US content. That said, I think this particular issue may have been resolved in a TANE update or in TRS19, but it's possibly a similar cause with your issue.

In that case it may also be worth seeing if you can reproduce the same issue with the same length consist using the default 'custom' 40ft boxcars (The ones based off the NKP High Speed Freight pack's boxcar), and see if the AI is still able to throw the same junction under the train.

The other thing is, what sort of signalling surrounds the junction? Is there a signal immediately before the junction, or is it some distance before (ie protecting several junctions, not just the one showing this issue)?

Regards
Refresh my memory... I think that a flat log wagon used since 04 would invariably derail just after passing the points <Kuid:-25:430>. I got around preventing this by locating the lever a little away from the frogs out center from the spline circle. Why this? go figure... But it works and my trains have not derail now for a long time, except when AI goes crazy. Now that I get your attention, I believe that all this has something to do with the "ability" of switching points back to default after the last car has passed. It happens too soon. Here is an example: You have a double slip. And you set Junction Controllers so that when one blade is straight (or curved) the corresponding blades will be aligned. But as the last car passes the blade, the other changes! due to the Junction Controller, even if the train is still over it: You get a derailment. Try and you'll experience it. You could say, use a DKW Laterne with associated assets (<Kuid:2:243555:60400:3>). Try it and let us know how to configure it. After many trials, I haven't been able to make it work satisfactory. Thank you...
 
Hi John
The AI should not be able to change a junction that is occupied/locked by any other train, either player or AI.

If you are able to reproduce driving the same consist through the junction with the same AI approaching (ie reproduce just that situation without needing to play through the whole session), and reproduce the AI taking control of the junction by doing this, then please submit this to the bug report form at https://n3vgames.typeform.com/to/xRdryu

This way we can investigate why this is occurring. Unfortunately, with issues such as this, unless we can test and reproduce the issue we often cannot find the cause of it.

We have, however, found that in some situations the scripts in some traincars may cause junctions to behave strangely. There was a particular case some time back where a train under AI control would change a junction ahead of it correctly, but when traincars with particular scripts travelled through the junction the lock was released and the junction reset. Unfortunately I cannot remember which traincars or script was involved, I just recall it was predominantly seen with US content. That said, I think this particular issue may have been resolved in a TANE update or in TRS19, but it's possibly a similar cause with your issue.

In that case it may also be worth seeing if you can reproduce the same issue with the same length consist using the default 'custom' 40ft boxcars (The ones based off the NKP High Speed Freight pack's boxcar), and see if the AI is still able to throw the same junction under the train.

The other thing is, what sort of signalling surrounds the junction? Is there a signal immediately before the junction, or is it some distance before (ie protecting several junctions, not just the one showing this issue)?

Regards

Zec,

I'll attempt to repro this situation again and if so the the team will be hearing from me.
 
Refresh my memory... I think that a flat log wagon used since 04 would invariably derail just after passing the points <Kuid:-25:430>. I got around preventing this by locating the lever a little away from the frogs out center from the spline circle. Why this? go figure... But it works and my trains have not derail now for a long time, except when AI goes crazy. Now that I get your attention, I believe that all this has something to do with the "ability" of switching points back to default after the last car has passed. It happens too soon. Here is an example: You have a double slip. And you set Junction Controllers so that when one blade is straight (or curved) the corresponding blades will be aligned. But as the last car passes the blade, the other changes! due to the Junction Controller, even if the train is still over it: You get a derailment. Try and you'll experience it. You could say, use a DKW Laterne with associated assets (<Kuid:2:243555:60400:3>). Try it and let us know how to configure it. After many trials, I haven't been able to make it work satisfactory. Thank you...

Hi Llebrez
Back in TRS2004 (And other versions around that one) junction levers did need to be moved away from the junction spline point to get some things to work. Unfortunately that's a bit before my time working for N3V, I was just a young Trainzer starting to get into creating back then.

For the junction controllers, I take it that these allow you to 'link' junctions together (ie change one junction, and it changes the other)? If so, I believe many of these types of assets do not check if both junctions are locked, and as such allows you to change both junctions if only one is locked (by clicking on the unlocked junction). This is a faulty with the asset, not the junction system, as it is effectively overriding any locks placed on the junctions. In this case you will need to use other rules or commands to ensure that the junction is set before you cross it, or see if other controller type assets will respect the junction locks.

Regards
 
Hi Llebrez
Back in TRS2004 (And other versions around that one) junction levers did need to be moved away from the junction spline point to get some things to work. Unfortunately that's a bit before my time working for N3V, I was just a young Trainzer starting to get into creating back then.

For the junction controllers, I take it that these allow you to 'link' junctions together (ie change one junction, and it changes the other)? If so, I believe many of these types of assets do not check if both junctions are locked, and as such allows you to change both junctions if only one is locked (by clicking on the unlocked junction). This is a faulty with the asset, not the junction system, as it is effectively overriding any locks placed on the junctions. In this case you will need to use other rules or commands to ensure that the junction is set before you cross it, or see if other controller type assets will respect the junction locks.

Regards
Fair enough explanation. Now, truly, I have experienced that Junction controllers will change points even if they have the lock showing. You may or not believe this, but we can't live without this asset, as it makes easier switching in yards changing points that are very close one to the other. So, developers should be aware of the usefulness of this type of controller, and if what is available is somewhat faulty, an official "nonfault" controller should be made available. Just a thought.
 
Or just STOP driving by AI control, Problem fixed

Using that 'logic', we could 'fix' the problem by uninstalling Trainz.


The beauty of Trainz is that it allows a range of options to appeal to a wide range of user profiles. If my interest was to treat Trainz like an arcade game, and see how long I could spend editing a route before the inevitable crash, or see how long I could run a fleet of AI until two of them inevitably merge into one train or derail, I'd be thrilled with it. The same if I got an adrenaline rush every time I opened map view, knowing the frequency that this causes the entire program to crash when trying to work in surveyor.

Sadly, those who have developed the game tend to favour some of the aspects more than others. It's kinda cute that the rolling stock now rocks from side to side and some of the assets have realistic shadows, but the tools for creating and editing textures, contours and water features are the same as they were when I first bought into this hobby at build 2365 [2004]. Industries that are over 15 years old are still as crude and unrealistic as they were when first developed. Few, if any completely new industries have been added in recent times. AI has been glitchy and illogical since day one. The download station remains a 'wild west' dustbin full of the good, the bad and the ugly. It's used as a selling point to encourage new users to buy into the game, but the developers flatly refuse to take control of the numerous defective assets and frankly crappy layouts and buildings that date back to the earliest days of Trainz.

Scrapping AI might appeal to a small sector of users, bringing the whole game up to the realism standards of contemporary console products would appeal to a lot more.
 
Using that 'logic', we could 'fix' the problem by uninstalling Trainz.


The beauty of Trainz is that it allows a range of options to appeal to a wide range of user profiles. If my interest was to treat Trainz like an arcade game, and see how long I could spend editing a route before the inevitable crash, or see how long I could run a fleet of AI until two of them inevitably merge into one train or derail, I'd be thrilled with it. The same if I got an adrenaline rush every time I opened map view, knowing the frequency that this causes the entire program to crash when trying to work in surveyor.

Sadly, those who have developed the game tend to favour some of the aspects more than others. It's kinda cute that the rolling stock now rocks from side to side and some of the assets have realistic shadows, but the tools for creating and editing textures, contours and water features are the same as they were when I first bought into this hobby at build 2365 [2004]. Industries that are over 15 years old are still as crude and unrealistic as they were when first developed. Few, if any completely new industries have been added in recent times. AI has been glitchy and illogical since day one. The download station remains a 'wild west' dustbin full of the good, the bad and the ugly. It's used as a selling point to encourage new users to buy into the game, but the developers flatly refuse to take control of the numerous defective assets and frankly crappy layouts and buildings that date back to the earliest days of Trainz.

Scrapping AI might appeal to a small sector of users, bringing the whole game up to the realism standards of contemporary console products would appeal to a lot more.
Agree it's most of this,but ultimately it all comes down to the number of people who use this sort of software , we don't have millions of people using Trainz and even games that do have huge audiences which are cheap to buy don't make a lot of money as it coasts a great deal to develop and keep a game ahead of the competitors . We are a niche and a pretty unique niche as much of the content is made by users . It would be nice if NV3 could make everything work and look great , it really given the circumstances, I don't thinek they can afford to ever get that state of affairs to happen and to also make a profit. I'd rather have what we've got it's al, it's imperfections than not have it at all,
 
It would be nice if NV3 could make everything work and look great

Indeed it would. Until then, perhaps they should stop pretending that it does.

Constantly releasing 'new' versions that are little more than a fresh coat of paint on very old tech is a bit of a scam. Issuing 'Service packs' that result in the whole game crashing more frequently is a bit of a joke.
 
Indeed it would. Until then, perhaps they should stop pretending that it does.

Constantly releasing 'new' versions that are little more than a fresh coat of paint on very old tech is a bit of a scam. Issuing 'Service packs' that result in the whole game crashing more frequently is a bit of a joke.

To be fair , this sim is a unique example , it's biggest plus, the huge range of content , is also a nightmare to keep bug free. I'm sue Nv3 have regular nightmares trying to keep up and develop the app.

So with new versions, I usually don't bother to install them , at least ,not for a long while ......I'm still on TANE SP3 as I know it's quirks and they don't seem to interfere with route building too much. I do the same with operating systems , I don't install a new one until its proven to be stable. I cannot fathom the mindset of someone which installs a new brand new OS the day it's available onto a whole room of computers that are needed to work 24/7 and who then discovers the third party printer drivers don't work ...... I've seen it happen time after time ....
 
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