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Thread: Overly aggressive AI. I witnessed an AI drive derail my train!

  1. #1
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    Default Overly aggressive AI. I witnessed an AI drive derail my train!

    Okay this is frustrating!

    The user-controlled trains should have equal control of the tracks just as the AI do. I was running a substantial driver's session last night that I had operated for well over 4 hours. I busied myself switching industries and running a local freight up to a quarry and back. The plan was to pick up concrete, gravel, and granite and then return back to the main yard to interchange with the mainline after bringing up empties and dropping off boxcars and tanks at the other industries along the way. I made it all the way back to about a mile or two from the main yard when an AI train came along and flipped the junction under my train!

    Yes! I actually saw him do it. He then proceeded along and drove through my derailed hopper cars as if they didn't exist. I was able to remedy the situation by editing and resetting up the derailed hoppers, but that broke the momentum and aura that was created by the initial run. I got my train back to the yard and quit driving after that.

    I have had this occur before, but I thought it was due to the kind of freight car I was using, or the switch-lever flipped back to default position. This, however, is not the case. To further test what I witnessed, I watched AI drivers in operation. If an AI driver is stopped at a red signal due to a junction not set in its favor, the driver will repeatedly flip the junction lever as if to test it. With each flip, the signal ahead turned green and the driver lurched forward and then stopped when the signal turned red. This flipping is what caught my train as it was crossing over the points into the yard lead. The AI driver that derailed my train did just that. He fiddled with the lever until it worked as if to jiggle the lock on a door until it can be opened. A user can't do that. We suffer from locked junctions.

    In another location, I saw something odd that we can never do. In this location, an AI train was stopped for a signal ahead due to another train occupying a station. The stopped AI was close to a junction, much closer than the 20 meter radius around the junction lever. This was not a modified junction where the radius is adjusted such as what I've done on industrial leads where I need to switch tightly. This was a mainline branch off to another route location. Here the AI taking the branch to the left was able to flip the switch that the other AI driver was nearly on top of as he was waiting for the train ahead to pull out of the station. If this was a user-controlled train, the user would have to wait until the AI driver ahead pulled ahead and into the station.

    The way I look at it, the user does not exist in the realm of the AI drivers, but the AI drivers exist in the realm of the user when driving. This separate world is what causes the interaction issues we all have been observing. To operate properly it should be setup so that whatever applies to the human driver also applies to the AI.

    We can't flip levers so neither can they. Rules are the rules.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
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    At one time or another I have experienced pretty much all you have above. Plus, when the consist is stopped at the signal and it changes briefly, lurching the train a little, it may do so until the head loco passes the signal, and then, makes a fault of passing a red light: Penalty for 2 minutes without power. It is a flaw. Been with this for way too long, even if 'This New Version is the Best Ever". Anyhow, your description is well depicted and accurate.

  3. #3

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    Interlocking towers will overcome that situation as it treats AI and human the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stagecoach View Post
    Interlocking towers will overcome that situation as it treats AI and human the same.
    Sure it would work in other situations, but not everywhere in a route. This is a tightly run commuter line that sees freights.
    John
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    Quote Originally Posted by llebrez View Post
    At one time or another I have experienced pretty much all you have above. Plus, when the consist is stopped at the signal and it changes briefly, lurching the train a little, it may do so until the head loco passes the signal, and then, makes a fault of passing a red light: Penalty for 2 minutes without power. It is a flaw. Been with this for way too long, even if 'This New Version is the Best Ever". Anyhow, your description is well depicted and accurate.
    Yes the SPAD thing... I saw that too as well.

    Yeah the best simulation ever...
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
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    Thumbs down

    Same here. Happens all the time (i.e. TOO OFTEN). I also get penalties for bad driving (really AI driving) and an Emergency stop/ 2 min cooling off period. The lurching AI, if real, would be mechanically expensive to a railroad. To N3V the cost is zero. So much for reality.

    The beautification has been positive, but the time has arrived to fix the Functional Faults in the product.
    Last edited by boleyd; October 30th, 2019 at 12:56 PM.
    Dick near Pittsburgh, Pa. i5-2500K 4.3ghz, 8gb memory, GTX1060 4gb video card

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    Quote Originally Posted by boleyd View Post
    the time has arrived to fix the Functional Faults in the product.
    Or just STOP driving by AI control, Problem fixed
    Last edited by MP242; October 30th, 2019 at 07:47 PM.
    I want all my performance sliders set to "Full"

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    Quote Originally Posted by MP242 View Post
    Or just STOP driving by AI control, Problem fixed
    That would be half of the fun. I maybe an odd user, but AI runs my passenger trains, ships, airplanes and even a horse buggy. I manually, run freights. Doing this is most interesting and not a "half". Believe me, I have sharpen and adjusted commands, signals and directional markers, so AI do run pretty exact to my set expectation. However, from time to time a train derails for a reason that defies my logic: If a train performs a task over and over faithfully, why somewhere down time, it derails where before it did not? And I end with a train you can't see floating far away at the border of the route? It maybe a joke of N3V, but to us is aggravating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by llebrez View Post
    That would be half of the fun. I maybe an odd user, but AI runs my passenger trains, ships, airplanes and even a horse buggy. I manually, run freights. Doing this is most interesting and not a "half". Believe me, I have sharpen and adjusted commands, signals and directional markers, so AI do run pretty exact to my set expectation. However, from time to time a train derails for a reason that defies my logic: If a train performs a task over and over faithfully, why somewhere down time, it derails where before it did not? And I end with a train you can't see floating far away at the border of the route? It maybe a joke of N3V, but to us is aggravating.

    I agree. I let the AI run the boring commuter trains that stop at every platform and repeat while I too go off and run the freights. My situation is similar with the AI will suddenly do stupid things like trundle down a branch line and get confused while ignoring direction marks and even speed limits. Sometimes restarting the session fixes that, but not always. For the most part putting in wait commands in the driver's session at the beginning has helped initialize the driver command sequence as if to let everything settle down first. A 5 second wait seems to be enough most of the time.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by MP242 View Post
    Or just STOP driving by AI control, Problem fixed

    I hope my doctor does not take this problem solving approach.
    Dick near Pittsburgh, Pa. i5-2500K 4.3ghz, 8gb memory, GTX1060 4gb video card

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    Hi John
    The AI should not be able to change a junction that is occupied/locked by any other train, either player or AI.

    If you are able to reproduce driving the same consist through the junction with the same AI approaching (ie reproduce just that situation without needing to play through the whole session), and reproduce the AI taking control of the junction by doing this, then please submit this to the bug report form at https://n3vgames.typeform.com/to/xRdryu

    This way we can investigate why this is occurring. Unfortunately, with issues such as this, unless we can test and reproduce the issue we often cannot find the cause of it.

    We have, however, found that in some situations the scripts in some traincars may cause junctions to behave strangely. There was a particular case some time back where a train under AI control would change a junction ahead of it correctly, but when traincars with particular scripts travelled through the junction the lock was released and the junction reset. Unfortunately I cannot remember which traincars or script was involved, I just recall it was predominantly seen with US content. That said, I think this particular issue may have been resolved in a TANE update or in TRS19, but it's possibly a similar cause with your issue.

    In that case it may also be worth seeing if you can reproduce the same issue with the same length consist using the default 'custom' 40ft boxcars (The ones based off the NKP High Speed Freight pack's boxcar), and see if the AI is still able to throw the same junction under the train.

    The other thing is, what sort of signalling surrounds the junction? Is there a signal immediately before the junction, or is it some distance before (ie protecting several junctions, not just the one showing this issue)?

    Regards
    Zec Murphy

    Customer Support Rep
    N3V Games (Auran)

    *Please do not use Private Messages for support. Support can only be provided via the helpdesk, or via the forums.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZecMurphy View Post
    Hi John
    The AI should not be able to change a junction that is occupied/locked by any other train, either player or AI.

    If you are able to reproduce driving the same consist through the junction with the same AI approaching (ie reproduce just that situation without needing to play through the whole session), and reproduce the AI taking control of the junction by doing this, then please submit this to the bug report form at https://n3vgames.typeform.com/to/xRdryu

    This way we can investigate why this is occurring. Unfortunately, with issues such as this, unless we can test and reproduce the issue we often cannot find the cause of it.

    We have, however, found that in some situations the scripts in some traincars may cause junctions to behave strangely. There was a particular case some time back where a train under AI control would change a junction ahead of it correctly, but when traincars with particular scripts travelled through the junction the lock was released and the junction reset. Unfortunately I cannot remember which traincars or script was involved, I just recall it was predominantly seen with US content. That said, I think this particular issue may have been resolved in a TANE update or in TRS19, but it's possibly a similar cause with your issue.

    In that case it may also be worth seeing if you can reproduce the same issue with the same length consist using the default 'custom' 40ft boxcars (The ones based off the NKP High Speed Freight pack's boxcar), and see if the AI is still able to throw the same junction under the train.

    The other thing is, what sort of signalling surrounds the junction? Is there a signal immediately before the junction, or is it some distance before (ie protecting several junctions, not just the one showing this issue)?

    Regards
    Refresh my memory... I think that a flat log wagon used since 04 would invariably derail just after passing the points <Kuid:-25:430>. I got around preventing this by locating the lever a little away from the frogs out center from the spline circle. Why this? go figure... But it works and my trains have not derail now for a long time, except when AI goes crazy. Now that I get your attention, I believe that all this has something to do with the "ability" of switching points back to default after the last car has passed. It happens too soon. Here is an example: You have a double slip. And you set Junction Controllers so that when one blade is straight (or curved) the corresponding blades will be aligned. But as the last car passes the blade, the other changes! due to the Junction Controller, even if the train is still over it: You get a derailment. Try and you'll experience it. You could say, use a DKW Laterne with associated assets (<Kuid:2:243555:60400:3>). Try it and let us know how to configure it. After many trials, I haven't been able to make it work satisfactory. Thank you...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZecMurphy View Post
    Hi John
    The AI should not be able to change a junction that is occupied/locked by any other train, either player or AI.

    If you are able to reproduce driving the same consist through the junction with the same AI approaching (ie reproduce just that situation without needing to play through the whole session), and reproduce the AI taking control of the junction by doing this, then please submit this to the bug report form at https://n3vgames.typeform.com/to/xRdryu

    This way we can investigate why this is occurring. Unfortunately, with issues such as this, unless we can test and reproduce the issue we often cannot find the cause of it.

    We have, however, found that in some situations the scripts in some traincars may cause junctions to behave strangely. There was a particular case some time back where a train under AI control would change a junction ahead of it correctly, but when traincars with particular scripts travelled through the junction the lock was released and the junction reset. Unfortunately I cannot remember which traincars or script was involved, I just recall it was predominantly seen with US content. That said, I think this particular issue may have been resolved in a TANE update or in TRS19, but it's possibly a similar cause with your issue.

    In that case it may also be worth seeing if you can reproduce the same issue with the same length consist using the default 'custom' 40ft boxcars (The ones based off the NKP High Speed Freight pack's boxcar), and see if the AI is still able to throw the same junction under the train.

    The other thing is, what sort of signalling surrounds the junction? Is there a signal immediately before the junction, or is it some distance before (ie protecting several junctions, not just the one showing this issue)?

    Regards
    Zec,

    I'll attempt to repro this situation again and if so the the team will be hearing from me.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
    TRS2019: 98592

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    Quote Originally Posted by llebrez View Post
    Refresh my memory... I think that a flat log wagon used since 04 would invariably derail just after passing the points <Kuid:-25:430>. I got around preventing this by locating the lever a little away from the frogs out center from the spline circle. Why this? go figure... But it works and my trains have not derail now for a long time, except when AI goes crazy. Now that I get your attention, I believe that all this has something to do with the "ability" of switching points back to default after the last car has passed. It happens too soon. Here is an example: You have a double slip. And you set Junction Controllers so that when one blade is straight (or curved) the corresponding blades will be aligned. But as the last car passes the blade, the other changes! due to the Junction Controller, even if the train is still over it: You get a derailment. Try and you'll experience it. You could say, use a DKW Laterne with associated assets (<Kuid:2:243555:60400:3>). Try it and let us know how to configure it. After many trials, I haven't been able to make it work satisfactory. Thank you...
    Hi Llebrez
    Back in TRS2004 (And other versions around that one) junction levers did need to be moved away from the junction spline point to get some things to work. Unfortunately that's a bit before my time working for N3V, I was just a young Trainzer starting to get into creating back then.

    For the junction controllers, I take it that these allow you to 'link' junctions together (ie change one junction, and it changes the other)? If so, I believe many of these types of assets do not check if both junctions are locked, and as such allows you to change both junctions if only one is locked (by clicking on the unlocked junction). This is a faulty with the asset, not the junction system, as it is effectively overriding any locks placed on the junctions. In this case you will need to use other rules or commands to ensure that the junction is set before you cross it, or see if other controller type assets will respect the junction locks.

    Regards
    Zec Murphy

    Customer Support Rep
    N3V Games (Auran)

    *Please do not use Private Messages for support. Support can only be provided via the helpdesk, or via the forums.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZecMurphy View Post
    Hi Llebrez
    Back in TRS2004 (And other versions around that one) junction levers did need to be moved away from the junction spline point to get some things to work. Unfortunately that's a bit before my time working for N3V, I was just a young Trainzer starting to get into creating back then.

    For the junction controllers, I take it that these allow you to 'link' junctions together (ie change one junction, and it changes the other)? If so, I believe many of these types of assets do not check if both junctions are locked, and as such allows you to change both junctions if only one is locked (by clicking on the unlocked junction). This is a faulty with the asset, not the junction system, as it is effectively overriding any locks placed on the junctions. In this case you will need to use other rules or commands to ensure that the junction is set before you cross it, or see if other controller type assets will respect the junction locks.

    Regards
    Fair enough explanation. Now, truly, I have experienced that Junction controllers will change points even if they have the lock showing. You may or not believe this, but we can't live without this asset, as it makes easier switching in yards changing points that are very close one to the other. So, developers should be aware of the usefulness of this type of controller, and if what is available is somewhat faulty, an official "nonfault" controller should be made available. Just a thought.

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