The New TRS19

boleyd

Well-known member
I have given up on the latest release of this game. Two different routes and I get messages that a lever is missing. I have never been able to find the missing lever. Redoing the session to follow a different routine several times and the same thing happens random missing lever. Of course, portals do not work either. The new process/menu system has no value for me. The previous processes were fine. I have returned to 100240

The problems with the AI remain. Not everyone uses AI and thus they probably prefer some other method of train control. AI is the reason I bought this years ago. Creating a new menu process does nothing for me. Fixing the AI would be of significant help. Yes, it is cheaper to fiddle the menus versus the AI and claim progress. That is a marketing issue. But the real functional value of that decision eludes me.
 
What specifically is the issue you are having with AI. I use it all the time. Some of my routes have over 60 AI controlled trains which take them to passenger stations, freight yards, and other scenic places in my route. There have been times when the AI didn't do quite what I expected but adding a few track marks, a signal or two, and a little tweekeing fixed the issues.
 
AI is and still remains flawed as an Operator

;) I would if you allow,

Say that fundamentally!!!

Software by it's design, that of Human work, is never 100%, :(

I started Computers before Bill Gates ever Wrote Windows, and Norton Disk Doctor, and the Rest of the old timers, it has been my experience and perception, that software will intentionally or not, have Bugs in the design and implementation.......I started with Trainz Driver2 on IPad, with Apples limitation of Memory, HD space, Video issues and a host of other problems,(as a new user back then, drove me freaking bananas) then I migrated to TS-12 which couldn't handle large Routes, etc, on to TANE and now TRS2019 where I am now, each one by definition has it's idiosyncrasies.

So like others here,

You might have to resolve or at least entertain the possible idea of staying back a Version of Trainz and learning to work around the inefficient issues that besiege you.

I've had many issues and constraints with all the Trainz Versions, and I try to take it in stride as I can. Now in fairness 50% of it was personal computer issues due to hardware problems etc. But I do sound off here when something goes wrong, if I find out, that I didn't really cause the issue, but it was purported by Trainz and other Colluding Software's in my Computer........And I know all too well how AI does not think logically as we would expect. It is a wild creature that causes severe emotional strain on the user..........I use it when I can, but like someone you cannot trust completely due to incomplete or inadequate work product, I don't ever completely trust AI. :(

I think and others have agreed as well, AI is still in infant phase, a young child if you will, that cannot or will not find it's most logical path when asked by the user.....It at least appears that way for me......There are many users here who have signaled, and Ar-rowed and Ruled to the death, their Routes in order to get AI to comply with said directions/path etc, but the task is not easy for the "faint of heart".......The other side of things to do with AI, we have some really talented Asset Creators, Pierre and many more, who have cobbled up some fine workarounds to whip AI into shape......;)

Just on curious note, here,

Have you run Developer settings Debug and Script analysis tools off your "Trainz Settings", on the first screen that shows up when you launch your program, that log might show where the missing Lever is ?

Maybe someone else more attune to this issue can allude to a better resolve for you.

I wish you well. :wave:
 
I do the same thing, the game is a challenge, from contructing to running, however at my late age it maintains the activity of the little grey cells.
I run all my consists employing A1, yes there are difficulties at times. Most of these relate to the route construction the remainder to inadequate commands for the A1 driver.
I do however have another challenge with the game and that relates to scheduling all the consists to a pre WW1 timetable with correctly chosen carriages and engines.
Do not forget, life was never meant to be easy, there are challenges living as well.

What specifically is the issue you are having with AI. I use it all the time. Some of my routes have over 60 AI controlled trains which take them to passenger stations, freight yards, and other scenic places in my route. There have been times when the AI didn't do quite what I expected but adding a few track marks, a signal or two, and a little tweekeing fixed the issues.
 
Tony and the crew acknowledge that the AI aspects of the program need a rewrite. When this occurs is up to him to decide and for us to reap the benefits.

I have run into the same message in TS12 and in T:ANE regarding a missing lever when there was none by appearance, but after I rebuilt the junction the problem went away quickly. What was causing the issue bemuses me still today because everything was in the right place or so it appeared.

What you are experiencing with issues, outside of this one, is that of beta software. This is why I make backups of everything before upgrading. As I've said before Beta = works mostly, but we need to keep bug hunting and remain on guard. If anything is amiss, we need to report it so that the problem gets fixed this go around or gets tacked at another date.
 
Actually, AI works (mostly) very well in current versions of TRS19 and T:ANE.
Like Paul_Bert, I use it all the time in my own sessions and derive great pleasure in contriving to make things work seamlessly for extended periods of hands-free operation.
It CAN be done - it just takes a wee bit of patience, perseverance, logical procedural thinking, and acquired knowledge of the limitations and capabilities of existing driver commands and session programming options.
Judicious selection of assets and the addition of sensible signalling, track marks, path management tools, schedule timing, industry queue management and driver commands is crucial.
Some time-out bugs remain to be fixed - especially after saved games - and I experience the occasional (sound-related) CTD, but overall - AI experience and reliability in session mode in Trainz has never been better.
 
Two different routes and I get messages that a lever is missing. I have never been able to find the missing lever. Redoing the session to follow a different routine several times and the same thing happens random missing lever.

In my experience when Trainz states that a "lever is missing" or a "path cannot be found" then there is a problem with the route. It has sometimes taken me hours (days even) to locate the problem but a lever was missing or a track join had not been correctly made.

Since levers and track joins are part of the route (or should be) then redoing the session is not going to fix the problem.
 
First - not only did I start Before Bill Gates, I predate solid state mainframes. I spent 9 years maintaining Univac-1 computers. Pulling 2050 type vacuum tubes on midnight shift because they glowed with a blue haze. Meant that they had gas which resulted from heating the metal elements of the tube. The console was gigantic and the printer was a model-28 teletype machine with paper-tape for input. The highest voltage was 800 volts with enough amps to kill you with very little pain. Power came from a very large generator in the basement to insure a stable source due to the inertia of a large flywheel.The memory was in Mercury filled tubes which formed delay lines. The data was translated to sound, and slowly (relatively) sent to a transducer on the other end and then returned to the input. Because of the delay data could be stored in the tubes. Those were the real early days.

When I retired I fiddled with some of the early single chip computers using machine language. When I got into the Trainz stuff I took a personal pledge that I was now the customer, not the programmer. I totally avoided learning anything about scripts or arcane data files. I payed so I could PLAY. Yes, I might have been able to be a "fixit" customer. But, testing issues with various scenarios was as far as I wanted to go. I was tempted to dig into the software at times but resisted.

So today, trying to find why something does not work, and spend hours on it - no. I am the customer not the programmer.

I understand the social environment on the forums and the fully participating customer. That is not me. I am just the customer. It was morbid curiosity that caused me to try the Beta. Always using the latest is in-bred. After a week or so I was not excited by any of the new features. But I decided to keep fiddling and thus became embroiled in the missing lever stuff. Rather than spending a disproportionate amount of my time fixing it became obvious that the previous version was where I should be. That is my story and I am sticking to it........ _._
 
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Two different routes and I get messages that a lever is missing. I have never been able to find the missing lever.
>>
Sounds to me like TRS19 is doing exactly what it is meant to be doing. Informing you of a problem with your route.

To narrow down where the issue lies, create shorter and shorter "drive to" segments by placing trackmarks along the problem route. If you can't drive from A to Z, try A to M, A to C etc. If you can get to C but can;t get to D then the problem is between C and D.

Remove the track, relay the track, most likely problem solved.

A----B----C----D----n----Z

I'd actually be surprised if there is any difference between TANE and TRS19 AI operations.

So today, trying to find why something does not work, and spend hours on it - no. I am the customer not the programmer.
>>
That's a bit like saying to the camera company to fix your photo that is out of focus. We've provided the tools, it's up to you to make use of them in any way you like. You're not recoding the game or being asked to, you're wanting to navigate through a track you (I assume) created, so it's up to you to work out where the issue lies.

Feel free to submit your route in a bug report and we'll even take a look at it.
 
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So today, trying to find why something does not work, and spend hours on it - no. I am the customer not the programmer.

As Tony and I have pointed out, it is not a problem with the software coding. It is a problem with the incorrect (usually accidentally incorrect) use of the tools provided by the software.

To give another example, if you send out a tweet containing the word "Covfefe" is it the fault of the software (Twitter web page), the hardware (keyboard) or the typist (Trump)?
 
What specifically is the issue you are having with AI. I use it all the time. Some of my routes have over 60 AI controlled trains which take them to passenger stations, freight yards, and other scenic places in my route. There have been times when the AI didn't do quite what I expected but adding a few track marks, a signal or two, and a little tweekeing fixed the issues.

Actually, AI works (mostly) very well in current versions of TRS19 and T:ANE.
Like Paul_Bert, I use it all the time in my own sessions and derive great pleasure in contriving to make things work seamlessly for extended periods of hands-free operation.
It CAN be done - it just takes a wee bit of patience, perseverance, logical procedural thinking, and acquired knowledge of the limitations and capabilities of existing driver commands and session programming options.
Judicious selection of assets and the addition of sensible signalling, track marks, path management tools, schedule timing, industry queue management and driver commands is crucial.
Some time-out bugs remain to be fixed - especially after saved games - and I experience the occasional (sound-related) CTD, but overall - AI experience and reliability in session mode in Trainz has never been better.

Are AI sessions like these to be found for download? If not, why not share theses "AI sessions?" Session freeware is rare... and "AI" sessions non-existent... Mark it "WIP" or "experimental" or whatever... but please consider sharing.
 
That is easy - The Deep State is at fault. But I digress. It has become normal to receive software that has some issues (aka bugs). The customer may be able to effect repairs or a work around. But you see, I do not want to do that anymore. I did that for years working on early operating systems. I even built the world's first musical instrument played by a computer. 2 Oscillators and some amps. We beat American Airlines in the unofficial competition. But all of my homemade stuff is now in a box. Those tiny, head of a pin transistors, became a problem. The point is that I can troubleshoot should I desire. I bought the software to run those complex railroads mentioned by others, but with a realistic commercial purpose. Still looking for a builtin timetable.

Trainz stuff is roughly $70. Lockheed Martin flight simulator is the same price. The number of customer solved problems was very low for the LM product. Because it was really a commercial product and LM sold it cheap to the simulator community to help them debug it. It was all above board. Yes, I had to get into some minor coding of some cockpit functions but it was a very expensive program at a very good price just to help debugging. I have never discovered what a flight school pays for it. Today there are some real wallet busting setups in commercial pilots homes. Also, real air traffic controllers volunteer to man several control tower systems to keep hundreds of virtual customers, around the world, from virtual accidents. It is pretty serious stuff.

However, from 20,000 ft you do not see much. The fun is managing the aircraft in real weather. For several hundred $$$$ you can get a chair that plugs into a USB port and simulates a really bumpy ride. The N3V series attracted me because it had scenery I could see. The same stuff that is around me. Yes it was a bit crude at first but the fun of running trains compensated. Each release became better. Today the visuals of TRS19 are excellent. There are a few things that could be changed. However, the scenery/visuals development could stop now and I would not complain. It is damn impressive.

So the ever continuing issues with AI start to raise their head. The visuals are the best. The railroad assets are works of art. Sometimes I just zoom in on a set of wheels and admire how detailed they are. The AI is from another era. The tracks have been modeled in almost every conceivable manner. Third party vegetation is top-shelf. The N3V trees with glowing leaves and all white trunks needs some work. The routes I have are NOT mine. I never made one. They come from another very talented and patient part of the community. I built lots of airports in the early Microsoft Air Sim days. It is work.

So, 100240 is my stopping point for now. The purpose of the latest changes in the new release elude me. Their functional contribution is a mystery. But if a TimeTable emerges I will jump right into it. Railroads run for MONEY. On-time performance demands scheduling, and adherence to that schedule -customers demand it. With no TimeTable there is no schedule and thus no railroad. That is a virtual hole that needs to be plugged.
 
I totally agree with you, boleyd.
TRS19 is beautiful and very stable ( for me, at least) but a timetable option it is sorely lacking. I assume it isn't a part of the sim because N3V focuses mainly on US railway settings ( emphasis on the word 'assume' ) and as far as I know the scheduling of railway there is less , or less strict , than in Europe where (passenger) railway traffic is way more dense and crowded than in the US, over here every minute delay can cause a terrible mess like, let's say on an airport.
I really wished N3V would work on a timetable system for Trainz. Right now I use the 'wait until hh:mm:s' (<kuid:32711:100025>) rule to make trainz depart stations at the right time, but that is quite tedious to set up.

Ron
 
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Yes, that is the only instruction I know of that provides the most critical element - Departure. Get your departure right, get good average transit times then you can come up with a nice schedule. But, as you say, it becomes a very long list of individual instructions, prone to error and difficult to modify. Amazon will be opening a new distribution center near your route. Now the whole schedule blows up as you have hundreds of new customers at various stops going to and from the new facility. Without a structured, manageable schedule lots of fiddling ahead.

My goal is to treat a route as a business. That is what a real railroad is -- a business. There are many existing good routes that either "fit the bill" or, with changes, come close. I guess you could manually compute charges for 50 crates of oranges to Minneapolis, and all of the other orders, that come in. But you would need a computer. That brings up something. Why not have a separate program that calculates a schedule based upon close to real typical rail orders. The automation could be carried beyond a printed schedule. The schedule program could input "objective" data for TRSxx to run with. N3V provides the software interface (Application Program Interface) and the desired formats. The TRSxx has no idea that the requests and commands are not user keyboard inputs.

The game player sets up the assets - where they are and the train structures. The scheduler is made aware of them. The day's commercial activities are input and processed by the scheduler. A schedule is computed and the inventory is searched for a suitable existing train. If there is none you (the big boss) creates a train at the recommended location (get your hands dirty). Based upon capabilities, and the location of the chosen train, an N3V command is formulated. It will actually select the train. Tell N3V to drive to the proper location and issue a load command. If a train needs assembled. The Scheduler tells you and your yard skills are put to the test to get that refrigerator car 50 miles away into the yard and assemble the train. Check the clock and tell the scheduler the train is ready. It is sent to the load point and away the auto-process goes.

Greatly over-simplified, but ok for flavor. May be variations depending upon the era chosen and the assets you have bought for your railroad. A variation could be you jump into the cab and driving the train under the watchful eye of the Scheduler.

I would foresee a minimal amount of work by N3V. A simple API for starters. It could be later expanded to include more automated functions. If I were N3V I would encourage a third party to code the scheduler. The API sets the ground rules. Otherwise little involvement by N3V. Given the eventual complexity of the Scheduler a small team might be needed with participating railroad experts. Your railroad may want to add in actual money amounts attached to cost of assets, fuel, trackage and personnel. We can include marketing, personnel, legal, etc. for later. The scope of the project may be defined in graduated steps from a simple two or three train system with later additions of trains and functions.
 
HI Boleyd

I also work for Univac. Started in 1964 at the Blue Bell, Pa Plant. Worked there for 25 years and saw a lot of change over those years.

Carl
 
I agree this is one of the weakest areas of the "simulation" and is something that N3V should perhaps take more than a glance at. If I remember correctly, during the Kickstarter campaign for T:ANE, this was one of the stretch goals, but unfortunately it didn't garner enough support points in the survey to make it something to look at as a priority. This unfortunately meant that dispatching and scheduling was put on the bottom of the pile yet again after showing up as a possibility during this short window of opportunity.

With that said, maybe this is something that one of the script gurus could look at in earnest someday. I'm not one to push because I know they have lives outside the forums and Trainz, although it may not seem that way, and I don't like being a kvetch and hound anyone about it.
 
Even a company like jointed rails could take on the scheduling/timetable project. Assume just half of the current customer base buys it at $25 the product could be profitable. Pricing could be structured around the concurrent number of registered trains. Register 10 trains but only run3, you still pay for 10. Other features, that impact the complexity of the code, could be held out as pay-for addons. A subscription could be tried but seeing even a modest PayPal bill very month may sour some.

Rather than foster game like competition sell track time to other users with virtual currency.. You could have a large major system such as the Pennsylvania railroad selling track time and/or selling the use of assets. Conversely a consortium of small systems could form, in concert, a system of several existing customer railroads. Then operate or drive on other players systems, paying a fee of virtual dollars.

There are many ways to run the railroads - a mix of AI and driving is possible until you and your other owners of a railroad go broke. The game moves from a simple competition into a more complex and interesting venue. For those who are interested in the business end it can be a valuable learning experience on business practices. The owners meeting on the internet to decide to try to enter the West Coast cabbage transport market is a possibility. They could simply compete or partner by amalgamating their two market regions where cabbages sell well. Remember the railroads and their served territories are virtual so two or three railroads operating in the same time and place never know about each other, as it is today.

I see no reason why such a Schedular program would prevent any of today's TRSxx activities.
 
Have you ever looked at pguy's EIT Demoroute and sessions? It might offer you what you are seeking? I don't know since passenger operations bore me to sleep but I have always found his rules and commands useful. And he is still updating them.

William
 
What specifically is the issue you are having with AI. I use it all the time. Some of my routes have over 60 AI controlled trains which take them to passenger stations, freight yards, and other scenic places in my route. There have been times when the AI didn't do quite what I expected but adding a few track marks, a signal or two, and a little tweekeing fixed the issues.



Hello Paul
Can you please be so kind and send me this your routes and sessions. I really wish to see and try them. Or maybe you upload them as 1611mac suggested in post #12.

regards
celje
 
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