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Thread: Longest routes and capacity

  1. #1

    Question Longest routes and capacity

    Hi there.

    I am looking for very long routes such as the Montana rail link so if you have any please give me the name to search for. Also in Surveyor I'd like to know what is the number limit of "grids" that can be put together in a single route. Also is there a limit on the number of objects/tracks that the game support in a single session?

    tks.

  2. #2
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    The answer to the last two questions is 61,756,577,142. Of course, no PC in the world can handle that load.

    William

  3. #3

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    that is what I'd like to know. I am afraid of designing a huge track then the surveyor limits my tracks. Would had to use the iportals feature.

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    Search for the username of GuilliamsYves in the game or on the download station website. He seems to like merging several routes together to make long distance drives.

    There is no exact answer to how big of a route you can build on your computer due to the nature of the game assets. It isn't how many objects you can have but how many polygons and textures those assets use.

    My advice is to start small to get a feel of what your computer can handle. Try a 20 baseboard route and lay the track and then add ground textures, buildings, rolling stock, signals, trees, bushes, grasses and whatever else you want.
    See how your computer handles that route. Then you will know how much bigger you can go. The big mistake a lot of users make is to lay miles of track across hundreds of baseboards to find out that adding all the other stuff bogs down their computer.

    William

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    Msgsapper is another route builder that has some really nice routes that are fairly big. He only uses assets that are on the DLS so no hunting missing assets.

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    You don't have to worry about this, unless you fill up your route with millions of RubyTmix Sketchup assets (which will bring your entire route to single digit framerates). Or fill up a huge freight yard, up with dozens and dozens of high poly 1 mile long train consists, with hundreds of high poly loco's, or use high poly track, and millions of other high poly splines, and trillions of trees, bush's, grass, TurfX, etc.

    A 300 mile long route is do-able, if it is only 1 baseboard wide.

    Your PC low end specs will most probably be the overall bottleneck choke point in performance issues.
    Last edited by MP242; September 22nd, 2019 at 11:07 AM.
    I want all my performance sliders set to "Full"

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    In my 16 years of Trainzing experience, I will say this. Long routes are wonderful if you have the patience to get them working, but there are some things to consider here. The shear length of the route makes the drive boring. Yes. Unlike the real world where there are things to watch out for, on our routes we have the same scenery each time we drive the same route. I have found that once I get into the slog of the long drive, I find myself dozing off.

    AI drivers become stupider the longer the route is. Due to the larger memory load, the AI data stream tends to get bogged down. As time goes on, the AI will start forgetting their routes, skipping signals, junctions, take sidings instead of mainlines, etc. You can troubleshoot this until you turn blue in the face and red in the ears to no avail. Resetting a parameter, or setting up a signal here and there will seem to work, but it doesn't last and soon enough the AI will get dumb again.

    Setting up a driving session, not just driving your own train, can take days or weeks and this doesn't count the troubleshooting afterwards. While we have nice tools such as Schedule Library which makes things easier, it's still a long haul no matter how you try to break it up. On a mega merger I put together, it took me about 2 weeks to get the schedule setup not counting configuring ATLS crossings, and then the subsequent troubleshooting which is inevitable with a route session. A route this big needs tons and tons of portals, and both active and static consists. Setting these up, along with configuring the commodities and industries is a task in its self. Then there's a program change, a crash, or some other stupid event, and everything has to be done over again.

    A route that size becomes a slog to build. Seriously. Merging is one thing, but building from scratch becomes a bear and a huge one at that. A smaller route, let's say just under 100 Km (64 miles), can take years to build. You see it's not just laying tracks down that makes a route. In fact that's really the easiest part of the task. The other stuff, the stuff that makes the route what it is, takes the longest. Finding that perfect building for the spot, populating a forest, looking for the right bridge for a particular location, and so on. If this is a prototypical route, based off of actual terrain, this is an even bigger matter. With a prototype you're then search for, relying on the goodwill of others, or creating the specialized assets yourself. This alone can mean years of making parts, and that can become a subset of the hobby its self.

    The terrain size can become an issue. The largest route can be is as big as your computer can handle, but the largest route as said above, is the sum of all the parts. The number of baseboards is part of it, but a higher resolution terrain, at the 5 meter grid and not the 10 meter grid, can increase your data point size, making the ground (.gnd) file larger. You see the route exists as a sum of many files in a folder so when we see the actual route size in megabytes, it's the sum of all these other files packaged up. In addition to the ground file, there is a objects file, and others including a track file. The objects file contains a small database of all the objects placed on the route. This file can be many 10s of megabytes as a route grows. I have some routes that contain 14,000 assets including trees, buildings, and other assets. The track profile information including the track-type and configurations is tracked in the .trk file. This too can become quite large. The problem is all this data needs to be loaded up when the route is opened up in Surveyor or Driver. This can take time, and as mentioned, the larger the route the slower things will run as well due to the amount of data being handled.

    I'm not saying this to discourage you, and by all means do this if you wish, but in the end is it really worth it making such a large world? Ideally yes it would be great to load up a highly detailed, superbly done route of 100s of miles or kilometers, but in the end it's just not worth it. To be honest, I have more fun driving my 7.5 mile, plus a couple of branches terminal and switching regional tram and freight route than I do slogging on the miles of my larger routes which always ends up with an issue with the AI drivers somewhere along the way, making the driving session into a frustrating and dreadful experience.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
    TRS2019: 98592

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    However, gnd files are split into chunks in TRS19 and presumably streamed, so If I'm reading that correctly, that might not be such an issue now, as you are not loading the whole map in one go.
    Malc


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    From TANE, we came into a weirdly strange era. Suddenly longer routes no longer work and become unstable and unsafe. Script errors rule over rules, driver commands, MINs, portals, HUD, signals and triggers.
    So we like to recommend shorter routes.
    Interesting is, that we do not demand enough from N3V to repair this confusion.
    Of course, the same errors also occur in TRS19, since in this respect it is only an upgrade of the TANE and is in the EA phase (WIP).

    I will be a bit wicked and will upload a 700 km long route in TANE and TRS19.
    Last edited by celje; September 22nd, 2019 at 12:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clam1952 View Post
    However, gnd files are split into chunks in TRS19 and presumably streamed, so If I'm reading that correctly, that might not be such an issue now, as you are not loading the whole map in one go.
    Maybe yes in some respect this is better, but then there's that I/O overhead to contend with whether it's on a faster SSD, or an older-style drive. With this scenario it's best to have lots of memory and a fast CPU to handle the I/O and DMA required for moving the files.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
    TRS2019: 98592

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    Author = jrfolco, routes = <kuid2:73500:100796:1> Baltimore to Connellsville & West Mega Route "Total main line trackage: 1107 Miles. The route has 11,605 baseboards, and covers 2,322 square miles" TANE and TRS19 and <kuid2:73500:101289:1> San Diego and Arizona Eastern Railway TRS19. - Prototypical

    Author = neilsmith749, routes = <kuid:95512:100747> UMR-2018 - TANE and <kuid:95512:100010> UMR2019 - TRS19 (UMR stands for Ultra Mega Route) - Fictional

    Author = dandoud, routes = <kuid2:526403:101265:5> Powder River Basin-97 Complete v4 and <kuid2:526403:101948:10> Crawford, NE - both work in both TANE and TRS19 - Prototypical

    Author = maxwerks, route = <kuid:425968:100010> BNSF: Clovis to Lubbock - TRS19 - Prototypical

    Author = sureshot28, route = <kuid:55290:100346> Clovis Sub 2-5 Tane 3.4 - TANE and TRS19 - semi Prototypical


    Last edited by normhart; September 22nd, 2019 at 02:57 PM.
    Dear Missouri,
    Thank you for sending us all your intelligent women.
    With Love,
    California.

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    Quote Originally Posted by celje View Post
    From TANE, we came into a weirdly strange era. Suddenly longer routes no longer work and become unstable and unsafe. Script errors rule over rules, driver commands, MINs, portals, HUD, signals and triggers.
    So we like to recommend shorter routes.
    Interesting is, that we do not demand enough from N3V to repair this confusion.
    Of course, the same errors also occur in TRS19, since in this respect it is only an upgrade of the TANE and is in the EA phase (WIP).

    I will be a bit wicked and will upload a 700 km long route in TANE and TRS19.
    With the change over to streamed assets and terrain with TANE SP2 IIRC or maybe SP3 got the full treatment any script that requested a search or listing that requires the game to search the whole route often failed outright or timed out - track searches. industries, products and a bunch of others. This is because with larger routes the whole route is not available to the script api - it's still sitting in files waiting for it's turn to be streamed into the game scene. And it will just sit there until the game thinks it needs to be streamed. This broke a large number of scripts that depended on that behavior. Scripts have to be aware of the new streaming and be designed for it. There are workarounds but for some it's a new design and rewrite. For many scripts that won't happen.

    Bob Pearson
    Last edited by RPearson; September 22nd, 2019 at 03:24 PM.
    TRAINZ-UTC-TRS04-TRS06-TC1&2-TC3-TS09-TS10-TS12-TANE(TEG)-TMR17-TS19
    Member since 6-14-2002

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    Thank you RPearson.
    1. Tehnical explanation is not problem, problem is that TANE and TRS19 don't work and N3V didn't repair it yet.
    2. about the list of route. Do this routes work properly 6 or 10 hours. Do they work properly after save position and returnig in game later

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    Quote Originally Posted by clam1952 View Post
    However, gnd files are split into chunks in TRS19 and presumably streamed, so If I'm reading that correctly, that might not be such an issue now, as you are not loading the whole map in one go.
    Malc everything has been split up now as I alluded to in my post above. In TS 12 you have 1 .gnd file, .trk, .obs, .lyr, .rlr .trc, and .bmk file per route asset. The .gnd, .trk, .obj and .bmk have been with us since UTC and before probably. Many different versions "ago" of the file formats but Trainz TS19 can still read them all.

    Now open up a route saved or created in TS19 and you can find literally 1000's of files. One .gnd file for each baseboard in the route. One .trk file for each baseboard that has a spline on it. One .vxt file for each baseboard that has a vertex on it. Most of the route is now stored per baseboard. It's loaded in on demand when the game needs it.

    Here's an example: my 36"ng EBT route version 5 has at the moment 4092 baseboards - a transdem terrained route - I think I set filtered to 5 baseboards each side of the track. Next to no scenery objects except for the switch levers, switch lever master/slave links, the railroad shop complex and some of the bridges and stations along the route. Probably a bit less than 200 miles of track - EBT main is only 34 miles long but all the branch lines, McKelvey logging rr and many miles of PRR 4 track main thru Mt Union add up.

    In TANE SP1 the route folder has 10 files in it including a thumbnail.jpg and a transdem info file.

    In TANE SP3 the route folder has 4696 files in it.

    Bob Pearson
    TRAINZ-UTC-TRS04-TRS06-TC1&2-TC3-TS09-TS10-TS12-TANE(TEG)-TMR17-TS19
    Member since 6-14-2002

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    Quote Originally Posted by celje View Post
    Thank you RPearson.
    1. Tehnical explanation is not problem, problem is that TANE and TRS19 don't work and N3V didn't repair it yet.
    2. about the list of route. Do this routes work properly 6 or 10 hours. Do they work properly after save position and returnig in game later
    I can bash N3V as good as the next person when I think they deserve it. But I'd say all the scripts in question were written and maintained by 3rd party (user) content creators. N3V has been trying to get them on board with the new changes and as I've said some have. But some have moved or passed on and for some there are other reasons why it won't happen. For good or bad the game has changed and we have to move with it or get left behind.

    I wouldn't wait for N3V to fix this problem - they probably won't. I'd say at best you might see the CRG try to fix some if they impact a lot of routes - how many users does it affect really?

    As to point no2 it depends on the script. Some work until they try to access an object that's not available due to streaming some fail right away because they time out. I've been mostly out of the development forums for a couple years now but N3V provided alternate ways to handle problems like this. Problem is the scripts that can take advantage of this have to be updated to suit and for some it might be a lot of work.

    Bob Pearson
    TRAINZ-UTC-TRS04-TRS06-TC1&2-TC3-TS09-TS10-TS12-TANE(TEG)-TMR17-TS19
    Member since 6-14-2002

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