Tr**n S*m 2020

EverTrainz

Electric Blue
D*G has announced the newest 2020 edition of their product, the “new” factor being the inclusion of some new routes and some environment lighting tweaks.

Expectedly, they haven’t implemented the new visual systems used by Trainz, such as PBR or parallax. Now would be the perfect time for N3V to implement a surge of new features that can be used for leverage against the other sim, as the 2020 version announcement buys some time.

There is current discussion about the current state of Trainz and content creation, and it seems like the ability to import custom content into TSW is still not here, and would be a long and winding road with steep learning curves anyway. If N3V implements features that content creators and route builders favor, I think that Trainz would be able to quickly get the better end of the stick.

Eventually creators would have to migrate to either Trainz or TSW, as newer features in either could quickly leave the legacy Train Sim in the past.
 
Well at the risk of repeating earlier thoughts on the matter, if N3V want to compete with DTG on a "simulation" basis...

1. We need a proper activity/scenario editor in the game, not just chaining commands together in Surveyor.
2. We need a player driven train to be able to follow a timetable and be checked on performance.
3. The default state of Driver needs to be that the AI signaller will do all the routing and operate signals etc. to get the player train to its destination.
4. Full support for different types of braking systems (including vacuum).
5. Banish the UTC era cabs and sounds from the game.

Otherwise to all intents and purposes we are still driving model trains in a prototype landscape.
 
1. We need a proper activity/scenario editor in the game, not just chaining commands together in Surveyor.
If there is something better they can do, I'm game...
2. We need a player driven train to be able to follow a timetable and be checked on performance.
I thought we have rules that allow for this?
3. The default state of Driver needs to be that the AI signaller will do all the routing and operate signals etc. to get the player train to its destination.
We DO have a few methods to do this. Just gotta tell it to go from "A" to "B" or "C" or....
4. Full support for different types of braking systems (including vacuum).
This is a good one
5. Banish the UTC era cabs and sounds from the game.
A good spit and polish would be nice on old rusty parts...

Otherwise to all intents and purposes we are still driving model trains in a prototype landscape.
For a V-Scale model RR Sim, I'm happy with it. It has enough to give me a fully functioning dynasty.

These are just my thoughts....
 
Railworks is more popular because it has routes based on real railroads and playability. There are 22,000 sessions available on Steam Workshop.

That is what simmers are looking for, "SIMULATION".

People even play stone age MSTS/Open Rails for that reason, "SIMULATION". It is not always about graphics.

The Trainz universe is a limited demographic.

Railworks looks better out of the box, no adjusting the environment to look good. The initial settings in TRS2019 are dreadful. Always were and always will be.

tearsdale_3.jpg


Love Trainz but commercially it is a dead end.

Harold
 
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Love Trainz but commercially it is a dead end.

Harold

I seem to recall people making similar assertions when comparing Trainz 1.3 and MSTS, way back when. Trainz makes it (relatively) easy to create. The longevity of Trainz shows its not just about "SIMULATION".
 
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I seem to recall people making similar assertions when comparing Trainz 1.3 and MSTS, way back when. Trainz makes it (relatively) easy to create. The longevity of Trainz shows its not just about "SIMULATION".
But this is 2019 and not way back then, time marches on and paradigms switch.

And outside the Trainz universe "Simulation" is everything.

N3V wouldn't need subscriptions to stop bleeding money if there was a market for a "routebuilding/screenshot" game.

Harold
 
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If there is something better they can do, I'm game...
I thought we have rules that allow for this?
We DO have a few methods to do this. Just gotta tell it to go from "A" to "B" or "C" or....
This is a good one
A good spit and polish would be nice on old rusty parts...

For a V-Scale model RR Sim, I'm happy with it. It has enough to give me a fully functioning dynasty.

These are just my thoughts....

1. Locating and chaining arcane rules to set up an activity is no substitute for a one stop system like the MSTS Activity Editor.
2. Not for player trains you don't, at least again not in a default or easy to use system. The default is still trying to figure out what points you need to switch then DIY.
3 & 4 - Glad you agree!

There is no doubt Surveyor is the No.1 route builder of all the sims combined with Transdem and the wealth of DLS content. But you still need to apply a decent driving experience if you want a simulation rather than an emulation of the real thing.
 
But the example I raised does highlight the dangers of signposting dead ends.
When I bought Trainz in 2009 there were 4800 active members on the forum now there are 1779. Last year at this time there were 1900 members active.

For what was once a community based game that is not a good sign.

Harold
 
Anyone remember Stopgap and Stopgap 2 from UTC days? Or SCS and SCS2006? I spent hundreds of hours on the Razorback Railway running scenarios. The issue with the session system is the timing of rules is not really precise. It is very easy for a session to get out of sync. The session creation contest a few years ago highlighted how a session could work perfectly on the creator's PC but not work when it is given to others.

William
 
22,000 sessions
wow, these are all first class? Do they have a random element built-in? For how many routes? Are they locked?
So now graphics are not important and it's only about SIMULATION?
Personally, I like that any route can be built in Trainz by anyone with enough time and skill. And then being able to edit them to my tastes and not how someone else thinks it should look.
 
The longevity of Trainz shows its not just about "SIMULATION".

You're right. I want simulation and creation.

Being as subjective as possible, Trainz excels at creation but falls flat on simulation. TS wins hands down on driving experience but isn't for the faint hearted when it comes to route creation.

I'd never drive in Trainz; braking and acceleration physics aren't even in the park when it comes to reality and yes, while there's a physics editor, it is near unfathomable. The majority of cab interiors and sounds are exceedingly dated although I note that some steps are being taken to improve visuals at least. The route creation is streets ahead though. Intuitive UI, fairly shallow learning curve, incredible number of free assets on the DLS. Ability to import real world geo data (I've not managed to work this out for TS). Oh, and a generally civil and helpful forum.

Flip that round for TS. Reasonably good physics, highly detailed cabs and superb sound. Route creation... Well, I still haven't worked it out. Also costs money.

Both sims have plus and minus sides. It's just a case of what each individual is looking to do. As I want both, I use both sims.

Cheers,
Innis
 
wow, these are all first class? Do they have a random element built-in? For how many routes? Are they locked?
So now graphics are not important and it's only about SIMULATION?
Personally, I like that any route can be built in Trainz by anyone with enough time and skill. And then being able to edit them to my tastes and not how someone else thinks it should look.
Trainz has to compete with what is selling, train driving on real routes?

Any route can be built in in Railworks or MSTS/Open Rails with the new TRES editor with enough time and skill.

Duh!

There is no new audience for Trainz.

Harold
 
When I bought Trainz in 2009 there were 4800 active members on the forum now there are 1779. Last year at this time there were 1900 members active.

For what was once a community based game that is not a good sign.

Harold

Probably like other Forums I belong to which are loosing members, they have gone to Farcebook and Twitter, Communities seem to be on the way out in favour of the Social Media obsession.

Then there are those, I know who will not use these forums due to all the bickering and bad behaviour that was happening a couple of years ago, still using Trainz though.

I also wonder if forum stats are affected by all the no tracking stuff people are using these days ;o)
 
I'd never drive in Trainz; braking and acceleration physics aren't even in the park when it comes to reality ...

... for TS. Reasonably good physics, ... , I use both sims.
Since you use both, I'll concede to your experience with the physics. But in reading some of the other forums, I seem to recall many threads bemoaning the lack of realistic physics too. Locomotives that can out perform drag racers, up hill; couplers that only behave more like rubber bands. Was that limited to specific assets?

It's a bit like cameras. Not that your system is necessarily better than all the others but once you're in for many years, you've invested a lot of time, money and learning and need a very good reason to switch, if ever. The $ investment in train sims is not a high as in cameras but the time investment is not small either nor the learning curve.

So after a brief start with MSTS, I got on the Trainz wagon early and have been ever since. Not because it is the absolute best (but I do like the way it generally works) but mainly because I'm too lazy to start over. Recreating all the bits and pieces I've made over the years would be prohibitive in time and effort, if it was even possible. For the same reason I still use GMax. It does what I want it to do and that's enough for me. YMMV
 
It was mentioned that the other simulator looks better out of the box, and that what’s possible in Trainz Surveyor can be done with time and skill in the other sims. Both are true, and I’ll add that some object manipulating can be more versatile in the other sim. It’s like Blender, once you get the hang of it it can be very powerful.

Trainz can improve graphics and Surveyor to challenge these, of course, but a large number of assets are being created with legacy materials under the belief that it doesn’t really make a difference, or is not worth it. For PBR to shine I think that most or all assets in a scene need to use it for it to be convincing. Ironically the only community that seems to accomplish this is the Thomas community.

Simulation and physics/features are lacking heavily, as are sounds. Multiplayer and Driver/Surveyor combined are nice but doesn’t provide anything that can be done without. Once those issues are fixed I think Trainz will be better in the running.
 
There is no new audience for Trainz.

Nonsense. Any successful business person will tell you that you create your own market. Butting heads with an existing product that already owns its own market is a waste of energy. Using existing statistics (not that you have referred to any) to show what the market currently is means you are a follower, not a leader. Trainz has a well-established product differentiation - user content creation and route building. The challenge is to build a market on that differentiation, not follow the trail that others have already trod.
 
Nonsense. Any successful business person will tell you that you create your own market. Butting heads with an existing product that already owns its own market is a waste of energy. Using existing statistics (not that you have referred to any) to show what the market currently is means you are a follower, not a leader. Trainz has a well-established product differentiation - user content creation and route building. The challenge is to build a market on that differentiation, not follow the trail that others have already trod.
Have a snazzy title like "Trainz 2009: World Builder Edition".

Harold
 
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