So What's next for Non-Subscription TRS19 Users?

Moving a heed quickly is only an issue if you do not than have the resources or staff and ablitys to then quickly repair any identifed bugs.
Which is the biggest problem for N3V there a very small concern.

They just do not have a team of 20 coders on hand 24/7 to quickly fix problems - N3V coders I assume are working not only on the patches but at the same developing the next big thing.

If my $15 a week was going towards fix and updates and I could see results would be more than happy for that and not paying for content I could get free else where.


It seems that you cannot win in the software gaming business. Release things too quickly (like the TANE SP1 update or the original TANE itself) and you get hammered when it goes wrong. Take the time to make sure things work properly and you get hammered for not being "fast enough". As Tony recently posted ...
 
Moving a heed quickly is only an issue if you do not than have the resources or staff and ablitys to then quickly repair any identifed bugs.
Which is the biggest problem for N3V there a very small concern.

They just do not have a team of 20 coders on hand 24/7 to quickly fix problems - N3V coders I assume are working not only on the patches but at the same developing the next big thing.

If my $15 a week was going towards fix and updates and I could see results would be more than happy for that and not paying for content I could get free else where.

That's where the less expensive Trainz-Plus works. You don't get the DLC with it and only the program version to test and play with the new features. It is, from what I can tell, the best of both worlds in some respect.

Your hard earned $15, I think you meant a month, is going towards SPs, new version testing, and everything in between. Companies can't focus on one product at a time, and N3V has a current product out there plus new things on the fire. If you think about it, Chevrolet, Honda, Microsoft, Adobe, and others don't just make a single product for the year and then sell it before coming up with a new thing. The difference here is N3V is a bit more open about what's going on here. Right now Microsoft, for all we know, may have a Windows 15 in the works, but they keep that inside the labs.

What this monthly cost is doing is giving N3V a steady stream of revenue. Revenue means money coming in that can do the boring things like pay salaries, taxes, keep the lights on, and the rent paid on the office so these little bits here and there are working towards giving us a top-notch product in a faster way than it would through a sale here and a sale there as it used to be. This little bit of revenue, besides paying for the boring stuff is added to the R&D budget to pay for developing new features, and for maintenance and support of products where your SPs come out. I don't know how N3V works out the budgets, but Tony has mentioned something similar in his posts, and this comes from experience myself when I was once involved in a small company where we were all of 6 folks doing multiple things at once.
 
How far the hobby has fallen

Wow. I am sorry Cayden. That is a great post and little history lesson, but wow. You clearly missed the whole entire topic by not, 1 , not 2, but 3 football fields there... The cost has nothing to do with it, at all. You even wrote what the topic was about for one sentence, and then went entirely different direction.

This thread ran its course.

We tried @euromodeller. But people are clearly missing the point, and it seems the ones who understand software and IT in general, get it. The others? Are missing by football fields here...

You are quite right. And that’s because at the last moment I decide to delete the last half of the post.

I had originally intended to title it “How far the hobby has fallen” and address what I think is the real issue that needs to be discussed: the negative impact entrepreneurship is having on content creation. As euromodeller has noted in post #1 of this thread, “This game and forum was built around creating and sharing…”. N3V with their rewards program, among other things, is encouraging content creator to switch from hobbyist who free share their creations and expertise to entrepreneurs who cherish their knowledge as a way to make money off of Trainz. What entrepreneur is going to tell you how to make something if he wants you to buy it?

Three months ago there was a thread on the forum titled “TRS19 Content delivery strategy causing major development problems”.

Freeware items on the DLS when incorporated into DLC routes are being be labelled payware and thus were no longer available for editing. In fairness it was pointed out that when one uploads an asset to the DLS one agrees that one is “signing over all rights to N3V”, or something to that effect. The current agreement for uploading to the DLS allows N3V to do what they like with the content including selling it and limiting access for editing or other purposes. This is hardly going to encourage the hobbyist who wants to create and share work freely to upload to the DLS.

The concern wasn’t lost on N3V as in Post #105 on June 6[SUP]th[/SUP], 2019 Tony Hilliam said, “We haven't forgotten this thread. Just letting you know we're working through step by step to cover all bases and work out the best outcome. We expect to have something for you next week.”. Three months later and, unless I missed something, nothing has changed.

Tony Hilliam in post #90 of the same thread said “…I'd really love to find a way to encourage more content creators, and one of those could be finding ways to compensate them for their efforts.” Perhaps an early reference to the rewards program? While it may encourage an increase in the number of content creators, that is yet to be seen. It certainly is not going to encourage content creators to share. And I am not just taking about offering assets freely. In my opinion of greater concern is the sharing of expertise through discussions and tutorials.

I have felt this way for some time. All one has to do is take note of what I think is a lack of discussion on the Content Creation Support forum. For example, in the past eight days there have been only 8 (one a day) entries in the Content Creation Support forum while the forums in total averaged over 50 entries a day; that’s 400 in the eight days. Moreover, most entries on the Content Creation Support forum are solving specific problems not in a general way exchanging expertise.

To try and be proactively and address what I thought, and still think, is the greatest impediment to more users becoming content creators I started writing tutorials. I am a Blender user so I can only attempt to record my experiences with Blender and currently T:ANE and TRS19. I believe what Trainz needs is not a rewards program but more sharing of creation techniques.

And the need has never been more pressing. The graphics industry is progressing at a rapid pace. The introduction of Blender 2.8 has created a whole new ball game for Blender users. The discontinuation of the Blender Render Engine in Blender 2.8 has added to the challenges of being a Blender creator of Trainz assets. The exclusive adoption of Physically Based Rendering (PBR) by N3V for TRS19 I think for many creators has become an almost insurmountable roadblock. The need for supplementary graphic programs such as Photoshop, Substance Painter and 3D-Coat in order to texture TRS19 assets with PBR materials has added substantially to the cost of content creation. Photoshop and Substance Painter are subscription programs at $359.88 US and $238.00 US, respectively. Perhaps we are at a watershed where many hobbyists can no longer afford to create Trainz content, at least for TRS19. Currently I am spending far more in a year on new software, and software upgrades, than I spend of a gold membership for Trainz.

I think the golden age for Trainz hobbyists was back in 2009 when for a short period of time Tainz Magazine was published monthly.

It was free, ran to about 20 pages each month, and contained articles contributed by creators on a variety of topics. I read it cover to cover even if I wasn’t using or wanting to use a technique at the time. Somewhere I still have copies I downloaded and saved. Sadly this time is over. I see on the forum new Trainz users asking how to create content and being referred to tutorials that were created for Trainz 2010 and earlier.

I once saw Auran (N3V) say, and I paraphrase, “We don’t create tutorials. We leave it to the users to share their experiences.” Ask the entrepreneur what he thinks about that!


Cayden
 
Responding here to the OP and a few other points...

So, what's in store for us poor-relations that dished out a lot of money for the non-subscription version?
Are we going to get any improvements to the 'game' that we don't have to pay for ?

The history of Trainz has been that every 1-3 years a new version is released that is sold on the store. Historically we've released a number of Hotfixes (small updates fixing critical bugs) and Service Packs (larger updates primarily focused on bug fixing). This plan hasn't changed.

The Service Pack referred to in the newsletter is for TRS19 owners. This includes bug fixes but not the new Trainz Plus features.

As pware eloquently put it:
"So what if it has been almost a year and still no SP1 for TRS19? That indicates that they finally got the release of a new Trainz product (almost) right - it is not perfect and it has faults but nothing major like the original release of TANE."

This is one reason things are taking longer to release in this cycle of development. We're not rushing things out the door. We're making sure that they are ready for release.

We have stated that we have no plans to eliminate the option to purchase Trainz. Nothing has changed in that regard.

The new features developed that are available to Trainz Plus users have been funded in part by their subscriptions. Purchasers will need to wait and buy the new version that includes the new features. i.e. Improvements and new features that cost money to develop won't be given away.

We've added a new option for those who don't see value in DLC content to access Trainz Plus on it's own.

The simple fact is that we are a business addressing a niche market. Spending $2-3 a week to support that business and enable us to become a bigger, better business capable of adding more features more quickly to Trainz, and improving our overall quality, is apparently a proposition many of you reject.

That's the bit I find hard to figure out. Everyone makes a decision on how to spend $1+ a day on non-essential items. We're talking about 26 cents a day to take up the Trainz Plus option (which includes an FCT that many people do currently see value in).

If you're happy waiting a few years for updates, then that's fine. If you want updates sooner, then there is an option available for you to access those updates. The choice is yours.


P.S. I'm keeping DLC out of this discussion for now, but just noting that the rewards program is more about product discounts than content creators. Cayden - perhaps move your most to a new thread as it is worthy of separate discussion.
 
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Hi Tony --

"The new features developed that are available to Trainz Plus users have been funded in part by their subscriptions. Purchasers will need to wait and buy the new version that includes the new features. i.e. Improvements and new features that cost money to develop won't be given away."

Do you mind if I ask you to clarify this, because it could be taken in a number of ways.

By "new versions" you mean TRS20, 21, ... ?

And for us "mud" users (who purchased TRS19 and have a First Class Ticket, but nothing else) could you confirm that we will still receive patches and Hot Fixes, and still have access to all the freeware on the Download Station. That is, for us things will continue as they have in the past.

Thanks,
Phil
 
By "new versions" you mean TRS20, 21, ... ?
>>

Correct. Trainz 20xx will contain features included in Trainz Plus.

And for us "mud" users (who purchased TRS19 and have a First Class Ticket, but nothing else) could you confirm that we will still receive patches and Hot Fixes, and still have access to all the freeware on the Download Station. That is, for us things will continue as they have in the past.
>>
Absolutely (although it will be a shame is the "mud" sticks as TRS19 is the best version of Trainz and far from mud).

Nothing changes for those who don't take up one of the Trainz Memberships. DLS is still there, FCT is still there, store purchase options for Trainz and DLC items are still there.

Before it is asked, we don't yet have a planned release date for Trainz 20xx.

 
Tony,

Do you have any time-frame when the next update will be released to all users? I have been using no HUD for many months now (Due to issue with it stuttering if displayed)

Thanks
David
 
If N3V have learnt anything from the TANE experience (and I believe that they have) it is not to put a "time-frame" on any new product or update. What is the point of promising something as vague as "early next quarter" or even "before Christmas" if testing reveals a critical bug that puts a torpedo in the promised "time-frame". You can almost guarantee that those who demanded the publishing of a time-frame will start flaming these forums when that deadline slips.

My philosophy is that it will be ready when it is ready. I would rather a late release that works than one on time that doesn't.
 
If N3V have learnt anything from the TANE experience (and I believe that they have) it is not to put a "time-frame" on any new product or update. What is the point of promising something as vague as "early next quarter" or even "before Christmas" if testing reveals a critical bug that puts a torpedo in the promised "time-frame". You can almost guarantee that those who demanded the publishing of a time-frame will start flaming these forums when that deadline slips.

My philosophy is that it will be ready when it is ready. I would rather a late release that works than one on time that doesn't.


It was mentioned by Tony months ago now that it was only "a few weeks" away until the update was released and that it fixed the issue that I was having.

It's good for some that the HUD works fine but what about those that can't use it.
 
Thank you for that eloquent post Tony.

The simple fact is that we are a business addressing a niche market. Spending $2-3 a week to support that business and enable us to become a bigger, better business capable of adding more features more quickly to Trainz, and improving our overall quality, is apparently a proposition many of you reject.

Not "many" but just a few. Perhaps that explanation will put it into perspective for those few.

I suspect that because Trainz has become such a passionate hobby for some, they fear that any change, even in the form of new options, represents a threat to their enjoyment. From my experiences in both education and in technical support, it is how things are explained that is the key to gaining user understanding and acceptance.
 
It was mentioned by Tony months ago now that it was only "a few weeks" away until the update was released and that it fixed the issue that I was having.

It's good for some that the HUD works fine but what about those that can't use it.

A few months ago, I believed it would be a few weeks away. If we could have released the update sooner, we would have. As it happens, we will release the update as soon as we're happy that we've fixed all the key issues and we don't fix one thing and regress others.
 
$3 a week is $156 a year to rent a game.

None of the other games I play use this business model, though obviously it does exist. They generate additional income by selling quality DLC or other items of interest to users. FDev manage to keep a massive server running for Elite Dangerous but apart from the Horizons DLC (pretty much essential if you want to land on planets) I haven't paid anything over the original (Steam sale) cost - though I am tempted by some of the rather nice cockpit skins! Yes ED probably has a far larger user base than Trainz and the remnants of a hugely successful Kickstarter but at no time has there been any suggestion of putting in a pay as you play option.

Anyhow the whole point is, there should not be a two tier user base when it comes to TRS2019 core updates. N3V sold the game at well over the normal retail price to those of us who opted for the conventional service and we should not be relegated to the status of "former" customers because we happen not to want to join the little Ponzi scheme.
 
Vern, please. Comparisons to a Ponzi scheme are extremely far fetched. A subscription is not even close to the same business model as a Ponzi scheme and there has never been any suggestion we should be sent to jail for offering subscriptions. Is that what you really think?

TS12, you paid for a product (with new features over TS2010 and new content). You got HF and SP updates that were required to make the game operate as expected (there were quite a few of them). N3V carried on developing new features in the background (primarily a new game engine).

TANE, you paid for a product with a new engine and new features and new content (actually, you pledged to fund the development and earned a reward which included the game when it was finished). You then got updates to make the game operate as expected (and yes, there were quite a few of them again, and at least one more to come). N3V carried on in the background creating new features and engine updates. (We did enlist the help of external beta testers to test many of those future TRS19 updates, which is one reason TRS19 is generally noted as the best version of Trainz).

TRS19, you paid for a product with new features, new engine updates and new content that was heavily tested and pretty much works as intended. It certainly has been accepted as the smoothest ever Trainz launch by far, and most people agree it is the best version of Trainz by far.

There is a HUD issue which affects a small percentage of people and there is a Service Pack due out asap (with the 'p' being the key to that statement). There will be future SPs coming as well.

So far, none of this has anything to do with our membership options, introduced at the time of TRS19.

Now, because we've added an OPTION for people to access the upcoming features prior to them being included in TRS20xx, it seems that people who purchased the previous edition (TRS19) would like those updates to be part of their version, rather than waiting for the next version.

Anyhow the whole point is, there should not be a two tier user base when it comes to TRS2019 core updates.
>>
The intention is that there isn't and difference. SP1 will bring the exact same CORE updates to TRS19 and Trainz Plus users. Once that SP version is released, we will be sticking closely to the "patch one, patch all" approach. i.e. any bug fixes in Trainz Plus will go into an SP for TRS19. (For technical reasons this wasn't possible with the first Trainz Plus update).

So the real difference is in the NEW FEATURE updates that Trainz Plus users get, and that is no different to TS12 vs TANE vs TRS19. People who pay for the features get the new features.

They are effectively pre-paying for TRS20xx features, and supporting us in getting those features developed, tested and released.

As I've said elsewhere, if everyone who owns TANE took up a Trainz Plus membership, we could more than double the size of the team and release more updates more quickly, and drop the prices of both the subscriptions and store sold products.

It is our intention that over time people will realize that Trainz isn't a game and shouldn't be compared to GTA X. Hobbies are generally a pay by the month/year proposition. My golf club subscription was $5k a year and that's without golf balls, clubs, gloves, shoes etc (I've actually given up golf so I now work 6 days a week on Trainz).

We know from our current numbers that there are lots of people who prefer the membership options and there are lots who don't, and we're totally fine with that.

It's a shame that those who aren't happy to become a member seem so keen to put the concept down, even though it is clearly the best way to ensure Trainz keeps growing stronger (as it is already doing since the introduction of memberships a year ago).
 
Adobe would beg to differ.
peter

As would Autodesk.

These companies are mainly targeted at professional clients who have much deeper pockets than your average Trainz hobbyist.
Accordingly, they are held to a much higher, mission-critical standard which Trainz isn't.

If having a subscription option is - according to Tony - bringing in the dough and allows them to make Trainz more reliable, what choice do you have other than to trust that he won't let us down?

In all honesty though, Mud is still grossly overpriced. 6/7.2 would wait for sale.
 
Here is the question. If I get a Trainz Plus subscription does that mean when TRS202x comes out do I get the full retail version? One that I can keep using even if I stop the subscription in the future?

William
 
If I get a Trainz Plus subscription does that mean when TRS202x comes out do I get the full retail version? One that I can keep using even if I stop the subscription in the future?

The subscription grants access to the product. If you end your subscription, you can no longer use that product.

hth,

chris
 
Ah, I see. Too bad. I already have the TRS2019 North American Edition. I'll get TRS202x whenever it comes out.

William
 
The subscription grants access to the product. If you end your subscription, you can no longer use that product.

hth,

chris

Maybe you could go about this a better way. Considering that your Trainz Plus members are paying for the development of your software, I think it would be prudent for subscribers to unlock the latest version of Trainz to keep after paying into the program after a pre-determined amount of months.

It only makes sense to reward your subscribers who are paying for the devlopment with a copy every one in a while. You still end up with the same or more money compared to someone buying it at retail.

In an ideal world...a lot of things would be different. That's all I'm going to say.
 
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@hilliam
(although it will be a shame is the "mud" sticks as TRS19 is the best version of Trainz and far from mud).


I
agree. I will not be using this term, and I hope others will move away from it as well. I am quite satisfied with TANE, but I like some of the routes in TRS19 as well, especially Philskene's.


 
I'm using TRS19 since this spring or so. I must say, I'm truly satisfied so far. It has far less bugs then T:ANE in the beginning. I can only encourage the decision of N3V to take their time for the new update. They seemingly learnt from their mistake with T:ANE. That's good! From my own experience: TRS19 is indeed the most stable and best in performance version so far.

As for the subscription discussion: it's good that N3V looks further then their backyard as it comes to new marketing strategies. The economic climate changes and N3V just tries to keep up with the time. I might even subscribe to the new Plus subscription. With my subscription, I make sure the game keeps being developed, and maybe they can hire an extra developer. :)

Of course, there's always a slight chance things go wrong, but I'd take that chance for granted. Trainz is a part of my life since 2003. I won't abandon this game quickly.

At last: one thing is for sure: as long as there is an outright version of the game, everything is fine with me.

Regards,

Koos
 
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