So What's next for Non-Subscription TRS19 Users?

But no one would come to the idea to release his product as 'rent only' model.

Adobe would beg to differ.

But I would prefer to have a non-subscription version, especially of Trainz. N3V doesn't release any DLC that I'm interested in (the little I am, are JR stuff I buy from JR), and have a lifetime FCT, so all I'd be interested in is the game it's self.

peter
 
...
Being a non-subscriber with Build 100240, I am pretty much a happy camper, contented with my choice to purchase the simulator, as opposed to the subscription/ game-leasing model.
...
Dave
BTW, I guess you ment a user license instead of the 'choice to purchase the simulator'?

_______
Josef

(TRS19 - 100240)
 
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I was a gold member, I stopped paying when I worked out that TRS19 would run ok on my comuter so purchased a copy.
In The content vault the only content of interest I had already purchased or was freewear that I could download anyway?

Was not happy to find out I was paying to have access to what was free elsewere

My trainz intrestrest is such that most of the content that I wanted to use my, friends and I have had to crate for ourselves, no support via content from the publisher since version 2006. If N3V would create NSWGR content of the 1960s - 1980s era, that I would pay for and have in the past.
Think I now upload to the DLS more than I download from it.

I will stay with the full funded and paid for up front versions of trainz for as long as I can
 
I bought a new, zooper-dooper computer to run what I considered (due mostly to N3V hype) would be a really great new version of the game I've become fond of since 2005. However, after reading all the gripes and confusion here in this particular panel, I'll stay with TANE, probably until I tire of the game. TANE really rocks on my new computer. Like others, I don't buy DLC. Never have, never will.

Bill


My experience with TANE was that it was slow and took ages for the screens to move to the next one...... It was very frustrating. As a Gold Member I then downloaded TRS19 and I was amazed how so much better TRS19 was compared to TANE.

On my laptop TANE was frustratingly slow and I will not go back to it...... and am completely happy with TRS19.

I am running TRS19 on a 1.60 GHz machine with 8 GIG of RAM which TANE obviously did not like. I have heard of people having issues with TRS19 but personally I am happy with TRS19.

I am creating my own content so am happy with TRS19 as it is at the moment.....

I am also happy to pay via subscription as the cost of buyimg TRS19 outright is currently $102.19 Australian which is too much for me to pay in one go.
 
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If they continue their 'total subscription' policy my decision is clear. I'll leave N3V in this case. ...... But no one would come to the idea to release his product as 'rent only' model.

As others have posted in response, there are plenty of software companies that now have "rent only" models for their products. Presumably you no longer use those products, including Microsoft Office. According to independent market surveys, these "rent only" companies are still doing very nicely with their sales, or should I say "leases", so your departure from their customer list is not affecting their bottom lines.

Once again we have a poster who seems to ignore the fact that N3V, unlike some of those "rental software" companies, are offering their consumers a choice - rent (with lots of fringe benefits) or buy (and wait or pay extra for the fringe benefits that you may want). Why do you have a problem with offering consumers a choice? Some Trainz users have chosen to rent and other to buy - that is free choice just as you have the freedom to leave.

My opinions.
 
You all missed the point of this thread after page 2, each one of you.

It's not about buy or lease. It's not about how you spend your money. It's not about choices. It's about the actual content.

Trainz Plus Update 1 came out in May. We half way into Sept and still no SP1. That is 1 update in a year since 19 release, and that is for Subs ONLY.

SP1? No where to be seen. Tony can say all he wants and say "coming soon", but there hasn't been a big update for 19 NON-SUB since its release last Oct.

That is the topic. What about the people without a sub? That's the question and discussion. Because right now, non-sub owners are shafted. Plus has many fixes and bug fixes that non-sub owners have yet to see, since May. Not even including the new added features of Surveyor direct to Driver, which is a Plus feature as of current.

Your money, your work, your bills. I applaud N3V for having the choice, I give em that. The cost to "try" 19 out is the cost of a starbucks or a 24 pack of beer. Having that option to test it out, see the new GFX, and updated sim. If you don't like, oh well, cancel. That is what I applaud them for, the choice. BUT, they are HEAVILY leaning towards subs, because its making them profit. Their bean counters are very happy right now, I can promise you that. Compared to say T:ANE release.

Problem is, things don't move fast enough. There is now too much separation between builds and paying subs, and people who bought outright. That is the problem. Also the fact that Gold/Plus subs are glorified beta testers, and have access to builds that provide bug fixes that non-sub owners do not have. That is a red flag and would never ever fly in any other community.

EDIT: Oh, and the Content Vault still has freeware items from JR, on a paid content vault. This is now the 4th time it's happened. Each time a ticket sent to help desk, each time told "we will look into it" months later, same crap. The communication between n3v and jr is non-existent. Who ever manages the Content Vault and DLC in general, needs to look for a new job. I am glad others are finally starting to see this as the other poster mentioned it too. I shake my head each new month and see a FREEWARE item on there. At this point is not being careless, its just lazy and not giving a rats behind.
 
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Problem is, things don't move fast enough.

It seems that you cannot win in the software gaming business. Release things too quickly (like the TANE SP1 update or the original TANE itself) and you get hammered when it goes wrong. Take the time to make sure things work properly and you get hammered for not being "fast enough". As Tony recently posted ...

Rock | N3V | Hard Place

I am totally unconcerned about the future of the TRS19 NON-SUB version (I sometimes call it the "Mud" version to distinguish it from the Gold, Silver and now Plus versions). I am a Mud "subscriber" but I am reassured by N3Vs statements of continuing support for my chosen version.

So what if it has been almost a year and still no SP1 for TRS19? That indicates that they finally got the release of a new Trainz product (almost) right - it is not perfect and it has faults but nothing major like the original release of TANE. IMHO TRS19 (original) is better than TANE SP4.

My thoughts.
 
@kilrbe3

Thank you for pointing out that the original topic has diverted to a topic about subscriptions, you saved me that task!

As I said in the first post I simply just want to know what next for TRS19 Non Sub members and the question of content availability.

As is usual with any forum, the original topic is overtaken by sub-topics, it happens on every forum that I have been involved with :)

@pware,

I care about the future of the 'mud' version, that's why I started the thread.
 
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As is usual with any forum, the original topic is overtaken by sub-topics, it happens on every forum that I have been involved with :)

Hmmm. There could be a lesson there:D but it makes these forums most enjoyable and not at all boring (except when they degenerate into flame wars but that is why we have moderators). It all comes down to Trainz being a passionate hobby (oops, I meant "life").
 
If I recall correctly, and that maybe a rare thing as of late, wasn't the 1 to 2-year cycle normal for service packs? I mean looking back at TS12 and T:ANE, we waited "some time" for the service packs and not the the hot fixes because the hot fixes came out immediately cuz they borked something by the service packs. It's been this way since I started using Trainz many years ago with TRS2004. It also took 4 service packs to get that version and that seems to be about right for the versions as well. (Kinda like Microsoft in this respect).

At this point I don't see things changing to 100% subscription at least not yet. I also think of it this way. Nothing is forever so enjoy it while it lasts.
 
The answer is in the last Newsletter as in TRS19 Service pack, that's TRS19, not beta not plus not gold or anything else but TRS19. Bold added by me.

On the development front, we're chipping away at the coal face with our TCCP content submission/beta testing systems, Metal (Mac) engine updates, Trainz Plus updates (improving the session save process), and preparing for the first TRS19 Service Pack to follow.
 
Malc that, to me, is not clear.
It could be read that the SP is for Trainz Plus as it follows the statement about TP updates.
I would like oficial clarification as to whether it is for all versions ot not.
 
Trainz Plus was the first Beta for gold members to test. This went up to version 100464. Then they did a big change with the drive and surveyor being linked together, They called this Trainz Plus Beta to separate the two versions. This version is not compatible with Trainz Plus because of all the new functions and is being tested by gold members. The release will be both the plus and plus beta tests combined to create the update for TRS19 100240
 
Malc that, to me, is not clear.
It could be read that the SP is for Trainz Plus as it follows the statement about TP updates.
I would like oficial clarification as to whether it is for all versions ot not.

There is no service pack (SP) for Trainz-Plus. Trainz-Plus is the finalized, tested version, of the ongoing testing done in the Trainz-Plus Beta. With the additional changes made, Trainz-Plus routes may no longer work in TRS19, but who knows what N3V will do there. Some worked initially from what I remember, but the beta is more disparate now. Being a beta version, I wouldn't put anything back into working versions anyway cuz weird things happen.

Think of it this way...

Those involved in Trainz-Plus Beta are like the lab rats who get to sample different tasty, but possibly dangerous bottles of stuff. There are some red vials, green, and blue vials. Some of the tasty contents work very well and that goes on to become finalized into Trainz-Plus, and some of these things will mostly make it into TRS19 (mud version as Peter calls it).

Then there are the others... Those others crash, blow up, and do weird things that just won't work, meaning for those using Trainz-Plus Beta, we run the risk of things blowing up and this has happened. This is why this is a beta. There are also somethings in there that work, meaning they've gone through internal testing but they are very sketchy when pushed. Think of a big turbine that works okay when started and running, but the blades fall off when put up to speed. This is where the beta comes in because no matter how much things are tested internally, there are many more things that don't get tested due to the multitude of variations in hardware, software installs outside of the program, and the different ways people test stuff.

Being a different beta, in the sense of a service pack or hot-fix beta, this one also gives N3V a chance to gauge whether a new feature is going to work well enough and be popular enough to be integrated into TRS19 (mud version) proper. This is why on my PC, for example, I have TRS19, Trainz-Plus, and Trainz-Plus-Beta. I don't want to trash what works, and having the base version means I can go back and verify if the problem existed before. With some of these features, they may not be worth going with, and that will be a total waste of precious, meaning costly, developer time to go down that road.

Anyway... I look at it this way. We may pay a small amount for the subscription model, but that goes on to support ongoing development, meaning we'll see service packs come out sooner than the two-year cycle. I mean really, how long was it before TS12 was finally patched, and that was at the very end of its life cycle? The other thing too is we may get discounts and "free" DLC, but that's N3V's way of paying us back to test. The DLC content alone adds up far more than what we pay for in the subscription. If you're not interested in the DLC, well then there's the other less expensive model to go for but I don't know anything more than what's in the marketing blurb.

For some the subscription works well for other reasons. There are some people who completely turn off their computers in the summer months. I know it's hard to believe that, but I know a few Trainzers that do that. One works in his yard as he conquers all the vast honey-do stuff his wife lined up for him in the winter, and the others are longtime Trainzers and very longtime retired who travel intensively during the summer, as does the Honey-do things as well. For them the subscription model works because they're not paying for what they're not using such as the FCT and that doesn't go to waste. If you recall, that was an issue many people had with that. They would do other stuff and not touch their computers for months, and the FCT would tick away no matter what flavor they purchased. With the subscription model, all they do is "let the payments go" and then they're off and running doing their other things.
 
Putting it into perspective

It is with some dismay that I have been reading a current forum thread “So What’s next for Non-Subscription TRS19 Users?”, a topic of some interest with 1,497 views in three days and 54 and counting responses.

As I see it non-subscribers, those that purchased TRS19 outright, are concerned that they are not getting bug fixes and updated in a timely fashion, those that bought into a Gold Membership are concerned that they are paying to be beta testers, and everyone is concerned with the slow progress in development for which they feel they paid, or are currently paying, too much for.

I am not old enough to remember the time (1920’s, 30’s and 40’s) when you had to make everything. You could buy nothing. Oh, there was Lionel Trains. They started in 1900 and made train set which most found under their tree at Christmas. As a kid I got mine second hand, a 4’ x 8’ sheet of plywood, which was propped up on little more than two saw horses so I could view it a eye level while seated in front of the transformer. I was over the moon when I was able to expand it with the addition of a second 4’ x 8’ sheet of plywood arranged to form an “L” shaped layout in the basement. The route was two loops one inside the other. On the bottom of the L were two reversing loops one on top of the other with a crossover. There were turnout so one could go from one loop to the other and one short siding with an oil company, I had a tank car, and a dairy, I had an open gondola which I could fill with milk cans. As I recall other than a box car and a caboose that was my freight train pulled by a steam locomotive that you could put tablets into the smoke stack and it would chuff “real smoke” as you went down the line. My only other train was a silver passenger train that had a dome car and red light on the end of the rounded last car, which kept burning out; LEDs hadn’t been invented yet.

By chance I ended up going to Purdue University in Lafayette, Indiana. It wasn’t until I got there that I found out they were the home of the Boiler Makers, the football team. You see, Lafayette is a railroad town. Three railroads passed through it, the New York Central that ran north west from Cincinnati to Chicago, the Norfolk and Western that ran south west from Detroit to St. Louis, and the Monon that ran north to south from Gary to Louisville and had it’s shops in Lafayette. The Monon ran down the centre of one of the downtown streets. Many a time I encountered a train passing through town on a Saturday morning. If you were travelling north or south you could drive beside the train. But if you were travelling east or west you had to wait. It travelled about 5 to 10 miles an hour so if anyone got in the way it could either stop in time or, at least, the damage would be somewhat limited. On the south side of town all three railroads crossed in an amazing crossover. I remember getting the opportunity to visit the control tower. Everything was operated mechanically with big leavers that the operator pulled forward or pushed backwards.

But what made Purdue University unique was that they had a model railroad club with a large HO scale layout in the basement of the student union building.

Most, if not all, of the locomotives and rolling stock were purchased from Walthers. In the 60s one didn’t have to make locomotive, rolling stock or scenery item any more, you could just buy them from Walthers. They had a catalogue the size of a large metropolitan phone book, and inch and an half thick as I remember with I don’t know how many thousands of item, all at a price of course. Kind of like the DLS (N3V’s down load station). It’s online now.

When I finally got a job I started my own HO scale layout in the basement. It took up a good part of the basement but was limited by my wife, who said I couldn’t occupy the entire basement. It never got to the have scenery before it was abandoned because of cost, which ran into the thousands of dollars I think.

Instead I joined a local model railroad club, the Scale Rail Guild. Several of their members had their own layouts but one in particular was something to see and operate, John Marlor’s The Mountain Division: Kamloops to Field, British Columbia, Canada.

It filled almost the entire basement and was a real work of art. Much of the rolling stock and locomotives would have been purchased from Walthers or other sources but the scenery was hand crafted. The locomotives were digitally controlled, an expensive system at the time but a dream to operate. We had operating sessions almost every week. It was some two hundred miles compressed into 200 feet.

So you can imagine my excitement when I first saw Trainz. One could make layouts/routes hundreds of miles long. I bought Trainz 2009, for about $30 US, I think, and continues with my interest in the railroads of British Columbia creating the 150 mile Mountain Subdivision circa 2010 from Revelstoke to Field and east through the Kicking Horse Pass to the Laggan Hill.

I am presently updating it for TRS19 so, among other things, so I can run the Rocky Mountaineer on it’s home turf through Rogers Pass, down the Beaver River valley, through the Spiral Tunnels and over the Kicking Horse Pass.

I am also working on an 1887 version, the golden age of the Mountain Subdivision when it descended the Big Hill, a 4.5% grade that preceded the Spiral Tunnels, crossed timber trestles in the Beaver River valley some of which at the time were largest and tallest wooden structure in the world.

So what’s my point?

To illustrate let me use the EMD SD40 (Electro-Motive Diesel Special Duty/Standard Duty) probably the most successful diesel locomotive design in history with a total of 3,945 SD40-2s built.

If you were to buy now one from Walthers (HO scale) it would cost you $279.95 US.

If you were to buy one from Lionel (O scale) it would cost you $429.95 US.

If you would prefer to have a brass O scale model as some do, it could cost you $750.00 US.

However, if you are a virtual model railroader using Trainz you can get one from Jointed Rail for $14.99 US.

And if you were to go to N3V’s down load station you can get one for FREE!

The cost of model railroading has never been cheaper whether you are a non-subscriber or have a gold membership.


Cayden
 
Wow. I am sorry Cayden. That is a great post and little history lesson, but wow. You clearly missed the whole entire topic by not, 1 , not 2, but 3 football fields there... The cost has nothing to do with it, at all. You even wrote what the topic was about for one sentence, and then went entirely different direction.

This thread ran its course.

We tried @euromodeller. But people are clearly missing the point, and it seems the ones who understand software and IT in general, get it. The others? Are missing by football fields here...
 
Very, very interesting to read/follow the various opinions. :) Thanks to all your inputs!

Nonetheless I hope less developers will take the way of 'renting' their software only, although I also can understand it, as financial preplanning is much easier and safer for a company.

For a user like me there is another thing I have to take into debate: I'm using a lot of different software. So if all my software licenses would change from purchasing one time to a rent model suddenly, then I'd have to cancel a lot of them.

Let's assume following example:
Someone uses
o MS Windows
o MS Office 2016
o Adobe CS6

For each item of the list you had to pay only once. If you'd consider to purchase today (Office 365 and CC) you'd have to pay a remarkable amount more for the same time of using it, let's say 365 days a year. For some people this maybe no criterion, for others it is.

There would be also a remarkable amount of other reasons, but I think it's enough, at least for me. Everyone can choose his own preference.
At the moment - and hopefully a very long time - we will be able to choose the most convenient Trainz offer that meets our needs. As long as this option exists all is ok for me.

_______
Josef

p.s.: Sorry, if I screwed the thread up too much, wasn't my intention.
 
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We tried @euromodeller. But people are clearly missing the point, and it seems the ones who understand software and IT in general, get it. The others? Are missing by football fields here...

Going back to Euromodeller's original post ...

<snip>
So, what's in store for us poor-relations that dished out a lot of money for the non-subscription version?
Are we going to get any improvements to the 'game' that we don't have to pay for ?

I don't want or need 99% of the payware stuff, so that leaves me with whatever comes free in CM.
Most of my Trainz time is spent in Surveyor making routes or doing reskins.

That point has been answered. Support for TRS19 (mud version) will continue. The SP1 update is for the mud version (refer to John's detailed post) and, I would expect, SP2, etc to follow for the life of the TRS19 product - like all the Trainz versions before it.

New suitable free content is scarce enough but now you are encouraging content creators to submit their work for reward.
I might be lucky and find 1 or 2 new items a day in CM that I can use, will this now deplete due to the lure of reward?

N3V have always encouraged content creators to submit their work for reward via the DLC yet the DLS still survives and grows. Every route added to the DLC will depend on DLS content unless the creators are prepared to create every tree, blade of grass, building, etc themselves and who has that much time on their hands? Like Euromodeller, I have little DLC and rely heavily on free DLS content. Every Trainz user, whether or not they use DLC, also depends on the DLS so it would be shear madness for that service to be discontinued. I also create assets for the DLS and will continue to do so. I do not see the free DLS being replaced by the payware DLC.

As for finding only 1 or 2 new items a day that you can use, it all depends on what you are looking for. There is a lot of content uploaded that I am not interested in but others may be. European and US locos do not interest me nor do many regional or era specific assets. I will often go for weeks without even looking at whats new on the DLS but that is usually because I am busy with projects that do not require any new content.

This game and forum was built around creating and sharing, I am not a gimme pig and I do add free items to the DLS, but I can foresee problems where subscription members will create a route that might be free, but I might find assets in it that are not available to us poor people.

That has always been an issue. Routes and session are uploaded to the DLS that contain 3rd party assets that are impossible to find, even with help from Trainz Index and others. Likewise there have always been DLS routes containing payware, often inadvertently (I have done that myself), but sometimes this is deliberate and, on the rare occasion, the creator has mentioned this in the route description. In these cases I simply move on and select other routes. There are plenty of creators who only use DLS content in their routes and sessions - I am proud to be one.

In summary, I do not believe that there is any real reason for concern here. Of course I do not have a crystal ball and cannot foretell the future - N3V may go under and we could lose the lot but I am not going to build a bomb shelter stocked with Trainz assets in case that might happen. All commercial software could go "subscription" but I will deal with that when it happens, I am not going to lose any sleep worrying about the possibility.
 
Going back to Euromodeller's original post ...


In summary, I do not believe that there is any real reason for concern here. Of course I do not have a crystal ball and cannot foretell the future.

-snip for shorten-

I agree completely with this closing summary. In the end to sum it all up on top of everything. I'd just wish things were a little more 'in tune and in-line' and not so spread out. From a software POV, it has it be quite cumbersome for them managing that many builds and versions and flavors. Though they did create and build the system so, I cannot see the crystal ball as you can't either. Though at times we can all agree we facepalm pretty hard on some of their choices, and shake our heads.. but eh, patience is a virtue in the long run and gotta roll with the waves. In the end the day, Trainz it many of us is a niche product we all love and adore to create and satisfy our virtual fun of trains.
 
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