So What's next for Non-Subscription TRS19 Users?

After steve123 received praise from Mr. Tony Hilliam i wish to give suggestion:

''Hobbies are generally a pay by the month/year proposition. My golf club subscription was $5k a year and that's without golf balls, clubs, gloves, shoes etc (I've actually given up golf so I now work 6 days a week on Trainz).''

said someone.

It's very very clever ( read perverse ) comparison between Trainz and golf so i propose that we have subscription for four class of trainzers:

1. high VIP which will pay 1.500$ for year
2. middle VIP by 1.000&
3. law VIP with 500&
4. others by 150&

Edit: I'm sorry i forgot to say: And N3V have not obligation to make a solid, accurate, stable, working product, but only beta to beta, beta under beta, beta because beta, beta because of beta, etc. ,etc.

regards
celje

Celje - I think you're missing the point that developing software is all about beta, beta, beta. Actually more a case of beta > fix bugs > beta > fix bugs etc.

Every software company does it, but normally a lot of it is behind closed doors.

Apple (who are worth a Trillion$ today and with well over 10,000 engineers) has a three tier beta program with their internal testers first, then the developer beta testers, then the public beta program before updates go out via an official update. And guess what - their last release required an urgent bug fix!
(https://www.marketwatch.com/story/a...-threshold-after-pricing-surprises-2019-09-11)

The difference with Trainz is we have so many different use cases that we send our betas out to external testers for additional feedback earlier in the development cycle.

The current TRS19 is the most stable "new release" version of Trainz we've ever released. Trainz Plus beta versions are almost all very stable as well.

Most crashes reported are specific to the route/session/system reporting the crash (not always true as in the case of the 64mph bug which affects some users and turns out to be a sound issue).

So our obligation, and in fact our practice, is to release stable software that can be enjoyed by as many people as possible. If you're not one of the many happy users, then please feel free to submit bug reports and we'll fix the bugs. Trainz Bug Report

Well, here we are in January 2020 and SP1 has been released.

How's it been for you members with just the basic, standard, non-subscription, paid-for version?

Please don't go back to subscription discussions here. (see line 2)

For me, SP1 was a HUGE disappointment, I found that all of the main tools that I use for route building (those on the header bar) were removed and hidden in menus.
The new features (e.g. surveyor/driver mode) were implemented in a new Platinum Edition which needs paying for, I am fine with that, but my choice is not to buy it for the simple reason that the route-building tools are hidden.
Would you buy a new version of a car only to find that the switches that you use every day were no longer visible, they have been put in the glove box and hidden away, but to make things worse there are now a lot of glove boxes. It's a guessing game as to what switch is in what glovebox, so you have to stop the car to find the swithch that you want to use, including the reverse light switch

Using alternative keystrokes is not an option for me (I have tried), I paid for a full version and now I find that I have had my most used tools removed.
I thought SPs were supposed to improve the Trainz experience?

So N3V have lost a sale and I have resurrected my saved none-SP1 install.

Can we have our tools back please?

Graham,

They just got back from their holiday and it will take time to sort out the issues they have received. Tony even acknowledged there are problems that need addressing. As you know, from seeing your timeline, the release of this service pack around the holidays, was no different than in the past including the little bugs that got lost in the rush to get it out the door before Christmas. The fact that Tony mentioned that here in the forums is a good thing.

My recommendation is to put in bug reports with the issues you have. The QA Team will contact you and work with you via email as they confirm bugs and come up with a test plan to repeat and remedy the problem. Be aware, however, that problems don't get resolved overnight, and will find their fixes in upcoming hot-fixes and additional service packs. Keep in mind that these too have to go through the test cycle not only internally, but through the beta testing program before they are implemented fully.

If you think I'm siding with N3V on this, I am not. I have just been through this process myself with the issues I have been reported.

John, thanks for your considered reply.
No bug report required, it's not a bug, it's a feature that has been removed.

My 100240 has not been updated and I continue to build in this version mainly as the menu/bar is quick to navigate for the "search" etc. I have got used to using some keybinds ie undo, wireframe and others. My steam version is updated to 105175 and have reported a couple of bugs found. I do not build in the Steam version as have installed my DLC / dls content in it. Whereas 100240 is dls content and non dlc with the exception of the Nickel Plate.

I am still wondering why the changes have been added to the SP1 update for the 'basic/standard' builds in the first place and why not just a straight out bug fix.
Then when purchasing the next retail release it would be like opening a 'treasure box' to see, use and get use to what is inside with the new goodies implemented.

Agree completely with Euromodeller. I am now considering going back to pre SP1. We have also lost 4k resolution with this SP. I know there is a work around, but there should not have to be. Reminds me of the old draw distance block in TS2010. Just because some users do / did not have the hardware to use these high end tools, those of us who can have to suffer. Rather than giving consumers the abilty to use these features...nope nobody can use them. Not right then and not right now N3V!

Euro --

Agree. Absolutely. Route construction and modification were so agonisingly painful in SP1 that I have reverted to using my pre-SP1 installation.

Who thought that deleting those buttons at the top of the screen was a good idea? Obviously someone who never uses Surveyor.

Phil

For me SP1 has not caused my workflow or anything else to suffer. Platinum likewise, with the added bonus of the UDS which allows me to fix scenery problems as soon as they "roll by" in Driver. I am more than happy with both and have since removed my 102400 install.

While I do not doubt that others have different experiences and opinions, I am just expressing an alternative point of view.

I will say it again and continue to do so.
The team have and are doing a fine job in providing us with the best ever version of TRAINZ.
I do not have any problems and have reached a point where my sessions once again run all day.
Yes there are changes to the interface, we now have a Rolls Royce now not a Ford so learn to live with it and move forward folks.
I run a fully purchase version as I already have a lifetime DLS and do not subscribe.
The only think that I would like to do is improve my hardware with a later graphics card, currently a GeForce GTX 750 Ti so that I can begin to incorporate TurfEx.

JackDownUnder said:

I will say it again and continue to do so.
The team have and are doing a fine job in providing us with the best ever version of TRAINZ.
I do not have any problems and have reached a point where my sessions once again run all day.
Yes there are changes to the interface, we now have a Rolls Royce now not a Ford so learn to live with it and move forward folks.
I run a fully purchase version as I already have a lifetime DLS and do not subscribe.
The only think that I would like to do is improve my hardware with a later graphics card, currently a GeForce GTX 750 Ti so that I can begin to incorporate TurfEx.

Click to expand...

How arrogant and condescending is that statement!

JackDownUnder said:

I will say it again and continue to do so.
The team have and are doing a fine job in providing us with the best ever version of TRAINZ.
I do not have any problems and have reached a point where my sessions once again run all day.
Yes there are changes to the interface, we now have a Rolls Royce now not a Ford so learn to live with it and move forward folks.
I run a fully purchase version as I already have a lifetime DLS and do not subscribe.
The only think that I would like to do is improve my hardware with a later graphics card, currently a GeForce GTX 750 Ti so that I can begin to incorporate TurfEx.

Click to expand...

But as a content creator seeing my work impacted by a new and improved version doesn't give me the warm fuzzy feeling I would like to have.


Cheerio John

Quick update for you - we're taking your feedback on board and will keep you posted of pending changes and updates. We don't want to give out snippets of information until we have a clear plan and schedule.

In keeping with the thread heading, the next quarterly is very nearly ready for beta release and introduces new and improved effect layer tools (more details to come "soon").

euromodeller said:

How arrogant and condescending is that statement!

Click to expand...

Yes I'm feeling a bit gobsmacked about it too Graham.

Tell you what Jack stay awake for four days and nights (get family and friends to help with this if need be) and let's see how you get on with the new interface.

Jack, a few simple changes to one line would have made all the difference.

JackDownUnder said:

I will say it again and continue to do so.
The team have and are doing a fine job in providing us with the best ever version of TRAINZ.
I do not have any problems and have reached a point where my sessions once again run all day.
Yes there are changes to the interface, but in my opinion we now have a Rolls Royce now not a Ford <delete rest of line>.
I run a fully purchase version as I already have a lifetime DLS and do not subscribe.
The only think that I would like to do is improve my hardware with a later graphics card, currently a GeForce GTX 750 Ti so that I can begin to incorporate TurfEx.

Click to expand...

I would fully agree with the newly amended statement but I accept that not all others do - this has always been the case with every Trainz release and SP. These forums are about expressing ideas and opinions and the latter in a polite respectful way - not always easy.

N3V have never had the resources to do complete and extensive market research and beta testing on every new product or update - I would bet that Johnson & Johnson would spend more money on testing market reaction to a new line of talc powder than Auran/N3V could ever have afforded to do in their entire history (and look where that got J&J when they were sued/fined $billions for a talc powder contamination - who could possibly get talcum powder wrong?). As a result we are often the test market and the final beta testers (just like Micro$oft) and they (both N3V and Microsoft) can get it wrong - look at Windows 8.

At least we have a company that is prepared to listen and act - but it will never be fast enough or extensive enough for some people - but I would prefer a slow and steady approach to changing things.

My opinions.

Perhaps in our basic/standard have an option in settings for pre sp1 hud (simpler hud) and an "extended" hud (SP1 style). I don't know really, just some thoughts thrown out into the universe.

Tony, thank you for being pro-active.

Pware, thank you, although our opinions differ in this matter, you are always polite.

Annie, thank you, my situation is bad enough, but narcolepsy must be awaful to live with.

ARhian, that sounds like a good idea.

Philskene, Trainz is a huge part of my life and I usually roll with the changes, but this one has really impacted on me, as it has with you, probably Tranz' most famous routebuilder!

John Whelan, nicely put.

To everyone else thank you for your input.

While I am an old dinosaur, and a retired software developer, I can understand why N3V and the majority of companies in every category of software development are turning to the Subscription Model. I have been involved in computing for nearly forty years. From the days of dial-up 300 baud modems when a 20MB HDD was thought to be HUGE storage.

Software development is an expensive enterprise. Extremely expensive. And "There are no free lunches."

Software companies do not sell the software, per se. They sell a license to use the software. How we acquire software doesn't really matter. It is software. When our computers die, or we lose the software by whatever reason... it is gone. All that is left behind are memories of having enjoyed or used the software.

I have purchased all versions of Trainz that are listed in my history. But I do not own these game releases. I own a license to enjoy the product that N3V develops. And I completely enjoy what the developers and engineers at N3V have created.

Is a subscription any different from purchasing software? Unless I have a cloud back-up, if my computer crashes tomorrow, or a fire leaves me homeless, I will have nothing of what I have "built" within the Trainz environment. It is all simply bits and bytes, a virtual world. It exists in my computer and in my memories of enjoyable hours I would not have otherwise experienced.

The Developers and Engineers and Researchers and All Of The Staff at N3v deserve, and indeed, have earned my patronage. I will turn to the Subscription of Trainz. My interest in Trainz and Real-World Trains, is a very narrow track of time. The enjoyment that I find when I turn to Trainz has thus far remained without bounds. Only my imagination places a boundary around my enjoyment.

N3V and everyone deriving their livelihood from the experience created within Trainz deserve and have earned my support in dollars, and especially my sincere "Thank you" for an exceedingly enjoyable and fun escape from reality. That is what I pay for with each dollar I set aside for Trainz. The pleasure. The fun. My personal return on investment.

Thank you, everyone at N3V and all of the Creators that have freely and otherwise contributed their talents and time in creating a truly beautiful and virtual Trains Environment. You each have my respect and my appreciation. Thank you.

coRioGrandeSouthern said:

While I am an old dinosaur, and a retired software developer, I can understand why N3V and the majority of companies in every category of software development are turning to the Subscription Model. I have been involved in computing for nearly forty years. From the days of dial-up 300 baud modems when a 20MB HDD was thought to be HUGE storage.

-snip-

Thank you, everyone at N3V and all of the Creators that have freely and otherwise contributed their talents and time in creating a truly beautiful and virtual Trains Environment. You each have my respect and my appreciation. Thank you.

Click to expand...

Nice post.

My first hard drive was a "ProFile" (as pictured at link below) for my Apple /// (yes, Apple "3" - after the "2", before the Lisa) 5mb hard drive - $3,499 retail - I "needed" it to help run my mail order business. Had a beautiful Epson dot matrix printer (with ribbon cartridge) to go along with it.

(Hard drive shown on top)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_ProFile

1611mac said:

Nice post.

My first hard drive was a "ProFile" (as pictured at link below) for my Apple /// (yes, Apple "3" - after the "2", before the Lisa) 5mb hard drive - $3,499 retail - I "needed" it to help run my mail order business. Had a beautiful Epson dot matrix printer (with ribbon cartridge) to go along with it.

(Hard drive shown on top)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_ProFile

Click to expand...

At least you had a business to use as an excuse to purchase a computer, Mac. All I had was an obsession to find out what computers were all about. Thankfully, computing turned into a career for me. Loved it!