WROMG Interior... WROMG Locomtive

Ah, this old chestnut has raised it's head again has it?

I salute those who create for others for free. No-one is obliged to work to any other standard than the one they choose for themselves.

Warning: Intemperate post!

There's a perfectly good reason why people such as myself are still using items made for builds as old as TS2004: if you want assets for modeling a particular road, there is simply not enough new stuff available to fill in the gaps. Not all of us give a - um - "hoot" about how pretty the shading is or whether frame rates are through the roof. If we're modeling 1960s Cleveland we need 1960s era models of roads such as Erie Lackawanna, Baltimore & Ohio, New York Central, Pennsylvania, etc. And we need appropriate lineside buildings, signals, etc. In most cases these have been made available at one time or another, dating, yes, as far back as TS2004 or in some cases even the original post SP3 Trainz. Not up to current "standards?" Tough. This of course applies to almost any region or time period being modeled.

Between tightened validation standards of TS2019 and the dropping of DRM-free versions, I'm sticking with TANE SP3 (or SP4 if it actually fixes anything), and don't expect to ever buy any further versions of Trainz. There are still modelers in the community building assets that I need that don't consider it necessary to meet the very latest standards, even if they're discouraged from posting to the DLS. A little time spend to update older assets to work with TANE is well worth the time. I'm not about to discard years of work to adopt the latest version of Trainz just so users whose primary orientation is gaming rather than model railroading can admire the improved eye candy.

--Lamont

If this is wromg, I don't want to be right.

If support for older assets is cut then that gives creators an incentive to create nice sparkly eye-candy newer versions. What I'm seeing more of are content creators that focus on a single railroad and create relevant assets or infrastructure for the specific time period and railroad.

ldowns said:

There's a perfectly good reason why people such as myself are still using items made for builds as old as TS2004: if you want assets for modeling a particular road, there is simply not enough new stuff available to fill in the gaps. Not all of us give a - um - "hoot" about how pretty the shading is or whether frame rates are through the roof. If we're modeling 1960s Cleveland we need 1960s era models of roads such as Erie Lackawanna, Baltimore & Ohio, New York Central, Pennsylvania, etc. And we need appropriate lineside buildings, signals, etc. In most cases these have been made available at one time or another, dating, yes, as far back as TS2004 or in some cases even the original post SP3 Trainz. Not up to current "standards?" Tough. This of course applies to almost any region or time period being modeled.

Between tightened validation standards of TS2019 and the dropping of DRM-free versions, I'm sticking with TANE SP3 (or SP4 if it actually fixes anything), and don't expect to ever buy any further versions of Trainz. There are still modelers in the community building assets that I need that don't consider it necessary to meet the very latest standards, even if they're discouraged from posting to the DLS. A little time spend to update older assets to work with TANE is well worth the time. I'm not about to discard years of work to adopt the latest version of Trainz just so users whose primary orientation is gaming rather than model railroading can admire the improved eye candy.

--Lamont

Click to expand...

Here is a golden example of why nothing will change with this mentality unless forced to. It's great that you are having fun, but you can have fun while others also enjoy a standard at least.

I'm not about to discard years of work to adopt the latest version of Trainz just so users whose primary orientation is gaming rather than model railroading can admire the improved eye candy.

Click to expand...

Nice little personal snarky attack there bud. I play this because I enjoy Model RR, and I also play games as a gamer since 1999. What's wrong with having best of both, especially when we are a fantastic time to be a PC 'user'. Dare I use 'gamer' around you. We have more tools and resources in 2019, and so accessible to anyone with a computer that it's insane to not get up to the times. With the latest and greatest engines, modeling tools, gfx design, and unlimited amount of how-to tutorials scattered across YouTube and the internet. There is 0 reason to still live in the year 2004. Which by the way, was a fantastic year for 'gaming'.

This is why nothing will go anywhere because of the attitude right here proven by you. Thankfully there is people who actually know the times are changing, and freeware community members are starting to realize a box for a cab stand is not acceptable anymore in 2019. Those who are not afraid to innovate and change, and try new things, get a +1 in my book. Those who want to be left behind and live in 2004, hey, whatever floats your boat. But don't bring the boat down with everyone else to sub-par quality.

Kilrbe3 said:

Here is a golden example of why nothing will change with this mentality unless forced to. It's great that you are having fun, but you can have fun while others also enjoy a standard at least.



Nice little personal snarky attack there bud. I play this because I enjoy Model RR, and I also play games as a gamer since 1999. What's wrong with having best of both, especially when we are a fantastic time to be a PC 'user'. Dare I use 'gamer' around you. We have more tools and resources in 2019, and so accessible to anyone with a computer that it's insane to not get up to the times. With the latest and greatest engines, modeling tools, gfx design, and unlimited amount of how-to tutorials scattered across YouTube and the internet. There is 0 reason to still live in the year 2004. Which by the way, was a fantastic year for 'gaming'.

This is why nothing will go anywhere because of the attitude right here proven by you. Thankfully there is people who actually know the times are changing, and freeware community members are starting to realize a box for a cab stand is not acceptable anymore in 2019. Those who are not afraid to innovate and change, and try new things, get a +1 in my book. Those who want to be left behind and live in 2004, hey, whatever floats your boat. But don't bring the boat down with everyone else to sub-par quality.

Click to expand...

I look forward to seeing your creations. A number of content creators I work with have decided that creating with PBR etc is just too much hassle. I note you have not made anything available on the DLS. Content does take time to create and perfection takes longer. I've had several hundred assets that worked perfectly well in the version they were created for but were flagged as having errors in later versions. Updating the assets to be error free can be time consuming and it is one reason why many content creators have fallen by the wayside.

Demanding perfection means much fewer assets would be available. It would also cut off new comers from even attempting to create content.

When you've spent a couple of years making the perfect carriage let me know and I'll beta test it for you.

Cheerio John

All I can say is "+1" to all views... the Trainz "world" is vast enough that we should be able to let everyone do what they enjoy. Some want to "game." Some what prototypical. Some want fantasy route fun. I was just reading Realistic Model Railroad Design by Tony Koester (Model Railroader books) and to some, accurate modeling of time and place is the "whole" ball game. Others just want to spend time running a make believe railroad. Some want to just game for a few minutes.

That's the way it is. Accept it for what it is.... different people, different goals.

Kilrbe3 said:

Nice little personal snarky attack there bud.

Click to expand...

You've basically back handed over half the content creators out there with your "toaster" - "turd" comments, etc.

And the title "gamer" hurt your feewings? Awww.....

You say you're a model railroader. Ever joined a club? I can tell you right now if I walked into a meeting and started berated peoples modeling skills, told everyone that they had to make things to my standards, and then demanded that they give them to me free, I'd probably get asked to leave immediately, putting it mildly.

Standards are a good thing. Even the NMRA has them. But standards are just that. Some are above, some are below. The main purpose is that everyone has fun. Listening to someone dictate "their standards" to everyone else is pure joy killer.

Kilrbe3 said:

Here is a golden example of why nothing will change with this mentality unless forced to. It's great that you are having fun, but you can have fun while others also enjoy a standard at least.

Click to expand...

Not all change is progress. Change solely for the sake of change may churn the waters but doesn't necessarily get you anywhere. In addition, when a particular change is arbitrarily imposed, that leaves those who don't want that change with no other choice but to stick with what they have. The ideal is change with the option to retain what you want, something Microsoft belatedly learned from the massive revolt over the "Metro" redesign for Windows 8.

Trainz users over the past decade have created a vast library of assets covering an astonishing range of roads. There is no guarantee that if old assets become obsolete creators will jump in to recreate them to "new" standards. Should libraries discard all books published before 1990 because the information in them "might" be out of date? Others on this forum have suggested that N3V include a compatibility mode which might not perform as well but would still handle assets built to "obsolete" standards. In other words, let the users decide for themselves.

--Lamont

Kilrbe3 said:

Here is a golden example of why nothing will change with this mentality unless forced to.

Click to expand...

I'd suggest that this mentality will lead to less content being created. The harder and more time consuming content creation becomes, the less will be created, especially for free.

Kilrbe3 said:

Here is a golden example of why nothing will change with this mentality unless forced to. It's great that you are having fun, but you can have fun while others also enjoy a standard at least.



Nice little personal snarky attack there bud. I play this because I enjoy Model RR, and I also play games as a gamer since 1999. What's wrong with having best of both, especially when we are a fantastic time to be a PC 'user'. Dare I use 'gamer' around you. We have more tools and resources in 2019, and so accessible to anyone with a computer that it's insane to not get up to the times. With the latest and greatest engines, modeling tools, gfx design, and unlimited amount of how-to tutorials scattered across YouTube and the internet. There is 0 reason to still live in the year 2004. Which by the way, was a fantastic year for 'gaming'.

This is why nothing will go anywhere because of the attitude right here proven by you. Thankfully there is people who actually know the times are changing, and freeware community members are starting to realize a box for a cab stand is not acceptable anymore in 2019. Those who are not afraid to innovate and change, and try new things, get a +1 in my book. Those who want to be left behind and live in 2004, hey, whatever floats your boat. But don't bring the boat down with everyone else to sub-par quality.

Click to expand...

When I was about to upload a bunch of new content to the DLS last year, I decided that I needed to finally go with LOD with the new assets and also update the old stuff I'd made to include LOD. After numerous months (and several hundred hours) of effort and hundreds of new 3D models for LOD, I uploaded the new assets and updates to the older ones. I have two "routes" to show off the assets and how to use them; one for TS12 and one for T:ANE. Interestingly, the downloads for the latest updates of the "routes" between the TS12 and T:ANE versions have been almost equal with a (admittedly modest) 214 and 217 downloads respectively.

I'm not disappointed by the numbers as a lot of the assets I have uploaded are for a very specific situations; modern facility vessels and equipment and piperacks don't really fit into a 1800's era route. When I started route building, the content for oil refineries or other oil and gas facilities were, well, not quite what I was looking for nor very appropriate for what I was trying to model. It was that apparent lack, or at least my percieved lack, of suitable content which lead me down the content creation path. I was able to use my career experience to good effect with my modeling to know when increased detail was desirable and when it wasn't. For example, my piperack splines have about 20% of the required bracing for real world stability. A real live earthquake would bring them down like a house of cards. However, since the piperacks are built for a simulator, I decided earthquakes be damned and went with the stripped down models and less polys. 99% of the users of my assets would never know the difference nor, probably, care.

My assets are for, mostly, the background although a few, the NGL loading rack for one, could well be front and center for part of a route session. For that reason, I tried to put quite a few of "extras" into that assets: electrical and control conduit for the equipment, numbers for the ESD valves and junction box, a load control panel with start/stop switches for the load pumps, a reset button for the load amouints, etc. Will 90% of the users of the asset know or care that I've done that level of detail for their enjoyment? No, probably not. Am I offended with that? Nope.

Do the asset users know that all my equipment, tanks, vessels, and pump skid assets have individual unique identification numbers? I seriously doubt it but in real life, just as each locomotive and railcar has a unique identifier given to it by the owner, so does each vessel, tank, pump, electrical motor, etc, have a unique ID given to it by the owner. In fact each vessel, etc., will have a unique manufactures ID also as part of it's "birth certificate" (as do the locomotive and railcars) but these ID's are not, generally, used in the owners numbering scheme. Now, I backed off giving each motor and pump on a "skid" unique numbers but instead gave the combination a unique number instead; the effort at detail wasn't worth the additional time, file size, etc. The ID's shown on the assets are usually nothing more than a plane with a simple jpg texture with text on it so it doesn't really add that much to the whole model as far as polys so I went for that iittle bit of detail.

Ok, why did I even write this reply? Well, I guess as a partial explanation of why some of us create content, how we go about it and the compromises we go through in the creation process. Admittedly, I'm pretty much an amateur in regards to content creation but I am going to jump from gMax to Blender 2.80. With that jump, I'll get into the new materials, textures, etc. for TS19 and beyond with all the frustrations that will bring.

Whatever.

I am kind of curious when looking at the 2000+ downloads of my Oil Storage Tank, KUID2:417385:101784:1 The downloads have been popping and all I can think is that it's in some new route that I'm unaware of. If someone has an idea, let me know. Thanks.

Oh, yeah, Kilrbe3, I was going to thank you for your content but I'm above that sort of snarky comment. Ok, ok! No offense. Or as we said in Vietnam, "Peace, chou hoi !"

Take care,

crazytrain said:

You've basically back handed over half the content creators out there with your "toaster" - "turd" comments, etc.

And the title "gamer" hurt your feewings? Awww.....

You say you're a model railroader. Ever joined a club? I can tell you right now if I walked into a meeting and started berated peoples modeling skills, told everyone that they had to make things to my standards, and then demanded that they give them to me free, I'd probably get asked to leave immediately, putting it mildly.

Standards are a good thing. Even the NMRA has them. But standards are just that. Some are above, some are below. The main purpose is that everyone has fun. Listening to someone dictate "their standards" to everyone else is pure joy killer.

Click to expand...

Wow, just wow. Way to flip that around completely, and completely different topics. Modeling in real life on your layout is 100% different than having access to tools and resources on PC to make higher quality assets.

Also, Yes to your question, and yes am member of NMRA, and yes, I do attend the conventions.

Ya'll have a nice day, because this a losing argument with a group that hates to hear other opinions and live in the past. Each to their own, and whatever floats yall boat.

Cheers

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Kilrbe3 said:

Here is a golden example of why nothing will change with this mentality unless forced to. It's great that you are having fun, but you can have fun while others also enjoy a standard at least.



Nice little personal snarky attack there bud. I play this because I enjoy Model RR, and I also play games as a gamer since 1999. What's wrong with having best of both, especially when we are a fantastic time to be a PC 'user'. Dare I use 'gamer' around you. We have more tools and resources in 2019, and so accessible to anyone with a computer that it's insane to not get up to the times. With the latest and greatest engines, modeling tools, gfx design, and unlimited amount of how-to tutorials scattered across YouTube and the internet. There is 0 reason to still live in the year 2004. Which by the way, was a fantastic year for 'gaming'.

This is why nothing will go anywhere because of the attitude right here proven by you. Thankfully there is people who actually know the times are changing, and freeware community members are starting to realize a box for a cab stand is not acceptable anymore in 2019. Those who are not afraid to innovate and change, and try new things, get a +1 in my book. Those who want to be left behind and live in 2004, hey, whatever floats your boat. But don't bring the boat down with everyone else to sub-par quality.

Click to expand...

You ignored his main point, there often are no up to date high quality assets available for certain eras, we don't have any choice , if we don't have the time or skills to invest into creating our own assets, then we have to use what is available. For instance, all the freight related rolling stock on the railway I'm making have the wrong brake hose and coupler details, I asked the original creator if he could update, he wasn't interested, so I have to use the items even though they are an older build and don't look all that good in certain lighting and are not prototypical. Should I learn blender and make all new versions before I make the railroad ? this might take me a year or so and I might not have the talent to do it . I've tried commissioning but with no success, so I stick with the old stuff and hope it works in new versions of trains, if not, I stay with what I have. I'd like to upgrade from tane,, but there aren't assets available for me to use in 2019 that I need. Your argument works in an ideal world, but in this hobby, we take what we can get because of the huge range of assets that are needed to create a Railway and the niche areas that are not well served by content creators.

Kilrbe3 said:

Here is a golden example of why nothing will change with this mentality unless forced to. It's great that you are having fun, but you can have fun while others also enjoy a standard at least.



Nice little personal snarky attack there bud. I play this because I enjoy Model RR, and I also play games as a gamer since 1999. What's wrong with having best of both, especially when we are a fantastic time to be a PC 'user'. Dare I use 'gamer' around you. We have more tools and resources in 2019, and so accessible to anyone with a computer that it's insane to not get up to the times. With the latest and greatest engines, modeling tools, gfx design, and unlimited amount of how-to tutorials scattered across YouTube and the internet. There is 0 reason to still live in the year 2004. Which by the way, was a fantastic year for 'gaming'.

This is why nothing will go anywhere because of the attitude right here proven by you. Thankfully there is people who actually know the times are changing, and freeware community members are starting to realize a box for a cab stand is not acceptable anymore in 2019. Those who are not afraid to innovate and change, and try new things, get a +1 in my book. Those who want to be left behind and live in 2004, hey, whatever floats your boat. But don't bring the boat down with everyone else to sub-par quality.

Click to expand...

Wow that is the most misguided comment I’ve ever read on the forums. It’s really easy for those who have never actually created any content from scratch to talk about how we have the wrong attitude and don’t care about the times changing. You comment on there being a lot of tutorials and information on making better content for Trainz, and while yes this is true to some degree, just because a tutorial tells you how to do something does not mean you will automatically be able to make it perfect and as real to life as possible. Content creation is A LOT of trial and error figuring out what works and what doesn’t. Also just FYI the standard of Trainz has gone up significantly in the past decade or so. I don’t think I’ve seen a single freeware steam engine or even diesel for that matter with just a “box” for a cab as you have described. Nearly all of them utilize the “Big Steam interior” cab view or they have their own unique custom cab.

To respond to your comment about no one being forced to change from 2004 standards, actually every single Trainz release since 2004 has been forcing content creators to work harder to make their assets better. You can still make content of TRS2004 quality but guess what, very very few people in this community would download it or care about it, even if it was the only representation of that particular object in Trainz. Even then, as long as the mesh is workable and can be reskinned, myself and others have taken assets dating almost 15 years ago and completely redone textures, sounds, scripting and more to keep them current with the game. Furthermore, TRS19 is basically forcing users to utilize PBR materials, and while the older legacy materials can work with the right settings and texturing, they are quickly becoming obsolete.

Lastly, freeware content creators (including myself) usually make content in their spare time. We don’t have time to spend all day and all night making something 100% perfect, because it never will be in Trainz. Trainz is a game and it is impossible to make something perfectly realistic because the limitations of the game engine prevent that. With constantly changing standards it’s impossible to keep a library of over 400+ personal assets updated to current standards of build quality and features. When building content I usually try to keep the mentality of: “Will this be acceptable in 5 years?” And try to build based on what I know are current standard features. I know though for a fact that some content creators don’t take the time to do this, they just go ahead and start building without any consideration. This is when we get those assets made for 2019, that look like something from TRS2004 but with PBR textures. It’s unfortunate but that is how it goes.

With all that in mind, I urge you or anyone else reading this, try making a highly detailed locomotive, with PBR texturing, fully scripted features, a full 3D cab and more. You’ll quickly realize just how difficult it actually is and how time consuming of a process it can be. And no, the excuse of “I don’t have time to do this” to cut corners is invalid because a lot of times us content creators don’t either.

Getting back to the first post, I would like to have seen Dave's face when he went to drive this 3 car EMU.
Not only is it just wrong, but it's actually in the middle car of the set and facing the wrong direction.
The actual exterior is very nice, also the 3rd party site has gone puft that I got it from.

Back to the original post, I very much wonder why anybody expects freeware to be 100% perfect, with every single available feature and script, full working interiors, new sounds, the whole nine yards.

As has been states numerous times, cabs usually take way longer to build than engines (fwiw, even reskinning a cab is a challenge most of the time), and the process of scripting and/or adding new features can be a painstaking and arduous process. Add in the research needed to build assets as close as possible to the prototype (which, I might add, usually comes at a high monetary price. Diagrams aren't always free!) and the fact that for a number of things, there may not even be any useful information available for cabs and/or interiors, and you get a lot of effort, money, and time going into a single asset.

Consequently, most assets that include those features become payware, even if only to recoup the costs of gathering information to build the asset in the first place!

Seriously, if you demand perfection and features, it doesn't seem ridiculous at all to ask for a little in return. For freeware assets, barring those the creator takes a particular interest in, it's really not worth it to include those extra features.

Like Evan stated, if anybody would like to attempt the process themselves, by all means, prove us wrong.

The elephant in the room here is time. To create any locomotive diesel or steam takes an incredible amount of time and effort. And When you are all done with 2 or 300 hours of work and actually have a working locomotive sitting on Trainz rails, you are looking

at a like amount of time to then create a cab. And it gets really ugly once you enter that realm mainly because the information available on locomotive interior architecture is almost non existent.

So you wind up doing a little fudging here, and a little there. But interior creation takes time guys. Lots of it. So I can't really blame someone who didn't take the time to create a cab view, it's a virtual game for crying out loud. And the gentleman who is

complaining? There is nothing that says you cannot create your own interior for that locomotive. Whether or not it ever gets released is strictly up to you, but that is generally how I see the current state of Trainz.

If I want something, and it's not available, or the color isn't what I want, then that's just another modeling project for down the road or even right away if it's eating at me. But at the end of the day folks, I am retired. I have lot's of time to fool around making

things. But there is just never enough time. Even being retired, I've long since decided that there will be many many projects that never get done by me, because you can't only have Trainz in your life. So other events always surround us, and stop or slow

progress. There is no urgency in Trainz and there never should be. Those of us who regularly contribute content are only human, we can only make the things we make. My personal rule is I only make things that make me smile. Why would I ever do it

differently?

while this thread is deader than a doornail, i do agree with both sides. If its trying to be realistic, at least a rough reskin of the cab would do. I also agree that this is very petty to be complaining about a very nice model having the wrong cab.