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Thread: Talk now of dropping HS2

  1. #1
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    Default Talk now of dropping HS2

    I know this is a topical item but am going to be frank.

    From the start of this thing I had doubts and sure as fate we now are told that the costs have sky rocketed and could go even higher than the terrible latest estimates. Frankly the government having the possibility of second thoughts is not that a negative. Railways usage has been surging up for the last several modern years and there are places where modernisation and even bringing back routes killed decades ago could be returned. Spending on such is a broader aspect and to the benefit of the wider population not those finding it easy to spend big sums travelling on a more concise thing.

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    Being totally cynical the north tends not to vote Conservative. With Britexit the financial downturn means less cash coming in for the government.

    It might be more interesting to see if there is an expected impact if its completed and where that impact will be.

    Cheerio John

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    I have no idea what the review will decide, but certainly the HS2 Company has not fought its case very well. I believe that the configuration is fatally flawed, with a terminal station in London and a terminal station in Birmingham. Connecting to an International train in London means a walk or transfer to St Pancras while in Birmingham the terminus is about the same distance from New Street. Trains for the north will either bypass Birmingham or have to stop in Birmingham and reverse. This is a concept that withered in the mid-19th Century at Birmingham on the L&NWR, at York on the NER and at Bristol on the GWR. Just three main line examples. Do people from the north not want the option of high speed travel to Birmingham? Do the people of Birmingham not want high speed travel to the north? Don't get me started on how the trains to the north will have to be different from the trains between London and Birmingham because trains to the north will have to run on existing track with existing clearances. It has all the hallmarks of a scheme drawn up by a Civil Servant in London thinking with their London-centric head to fill London's needs, but then tries to sell it as something "the country" needs. In the end, an £80Bn price tag will mean either eye-watering fare levels on HS2 or every train traveller across the UK paying extra to subsidise the tickets on it.

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    On the passing political thing Jon the north of England may traditionally be non-Conservative but most lent Labour and want Brexit but Labour ignores that!

    As for the HS2 I still have doubts about it and the dashed costs going so way up as it is being forecast. I still would prefer former lines long gone to be brought back. Some of those places have changed from away back in the 1960's. We have had line brought back here in Scotland where in those 60's were not doing so well but do so now! Two have also been electrified. Just to make you down there wee bit jealous!

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    With both WCML and ECML working at near full capacity, the case for a new dedicated high speed line remains strong, but I agree that the execution of HS2 has been diabolical, not least the excessively London-centric elements (like a new, and unnecessary, station at Euston). However, I don't think we should be naive and think that, if the project is cancelled, that the money saved means additional resources for other rail projects. Just as likely - knowing this government - that they'll plough it all into roads or fritter it away on some more Boris white elephants!

    Paul

    EDIT: further to this, this link goes to an article by the highly respected rail commentator Christian Wolmar who is a long term sceptic about HS2, but also takes that view that, if it's cancelled, the money saved is unlikely to go to other rail projects (particularly in the north).
    Last edited by Paulsw2; August 22nd, 2019 at 06:38 PM.

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    Just in passing up here in Scotland we have at least seen re-openings just to make my southern cousins jealous but the HS2 thing does not include north of the Border. The cost of the thing is getting worse and detracts from the chance of getting routine lines improved and old ones brought back in England. Mind you Scotland's two main cities re Glasgow-Edinburgh have 3 separate train routes between them so ahead of everywhere else!

  7. #7

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    I've never felt HS2 in the answer, and I suspect it will leave many places currently served by fast trains on the WCML worse off in terms of express services.

    Had there been the political will 20 odd years ago, there was a viable proposal to re-open the old GC Londen Extension at least as far as Rugby. If this could have been extended giving a fast route to Sheffield (with trains branching to Birmingham via a new cord at Rugby) and then on to Manchester by re-opening the Woodhead route, I feel it would have made a useful contribution in terms of extra capacity but I fear there's too much development on and around the old GC trackbed now for this to be viable.

    I just don't see the benefit in really high speed rail as the journey distances are not long enough in the UK for the extra speeds to make a substantial time saving.

    Something that could still be achieved fairly simply would be to re-instate the old Northampton-Bedford route. Some trains from Birmingham, Coventry and the Trent Valley line could then use St Pancras which would ease the load on the WCML south of Rugby and also provide a direct link to Eurostar services, rather than zooming from Birmingham to Euston on HS2, and then losing the time you've just saved crossing London on the Tube.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2995Valliant View Post
    I've never felt HS2 in the answer, and I suspect it will leave many places currently served by fast trains on the WCML worse off in terms of express services.

    Had there been the political will 20 odd years ago, there was a viable proposal to re-open the old GC Londen Extension at least as far as Rugby. If this could have been extended giving a fast route to Sheffield (with trains branching to Birmingham via a new cord at Rugby) and then on to Manchester by re-opening the Woodhead route, I feel it would have made a useful contribution in terms of extra capacity but I fear there's too much development on and around the old GC trackbed now for this to be viable.

    I just don't see the benefit in really high speed rail as the journey distances are not long enough in the UK for the extra speeds to make a substantial time saving.

    Something that could still be achieved fairly simply would be to re-instate the old Northampton-Bedford route. Some trains from Birmingham, Coventry and the Trent Valley line could then use St Pancras which would ease the load on the WCML south of Rugby and also provide a direct link to Eurostar services, rather than zooming from Birmingham to Euston on HS2, and then losing the time you've just saved crossing London on the Tube.....
    I think reusing existing track beds and lower speeds makes more sense. It's capacity that is needed rather than speed.

    Cheerio John

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    Widening the rail system by bringing back lines in some places is a more constructive direction and i do feel that wanting such fast trains in Britain is not that positive and the cost of the thing is getting ridiculous. Just think what could be brought back with some of that big money. At least up here we have had long gone lines brought back and now yet another in the pipeline. Maybe some not up here will be a wee bitty envious?!

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    Making it 10 minutes quicker for the 'Elite' to get to work in London & earn more in an hour than those in the
    north can earn in a day, is not going to help those in the north by 1 bloody bit, it just means that those working
    for wages in the south, can rob the lower earners who live & work in the north, of the prospect of owning
    their own home, because the wages from London, can buy the cheaper homes in the north, then rent them out at
    rents that northern wage earners can't afford to pay without living in poverty.

    This has been proven buy countless surveys, check it out yourselves, the proof is out there even for the most dimwitted of bloody internet user.
    T:ane SP2 build 88364 + SnC & Duchess

  11. #11
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    I agree with BLACKWATCH but having said that, here in Cheshire, there are many rich people living in large and palatial dwellings, mainly professionals working in Manchester and Liverpool. I am not one of them, I am but a poor pensioner!

    Rob.

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