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Thread: Route and Sessions - How do they work together?

  1. #16
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    I think a tool that would edit the map-kuid for a session would be great. It could be written in Python, for instance.
    However, I used to write programs with it, and I looked in the book the other day and it seemed like a foreign language to me now.
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  2. #17
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    There are many problems with placing tracks (and track objects) into a session instead of the route. While this would work for a route with a single session only it can create headaches when you add a second session. Yes, as Pitkin suggest, you can simply clone the first session and give the copy a new name and carry on working.

    If you later decide to make a change to the tracks, and not just a change to the kuid but to realign them, add new features (industries, signals, bridges, etc), delete a section, and so on then you would have to go into every session and make the same changes to maintain consistency between the sessions. Of course, you could argue that the rail bridge that you added to the day session version does not have to be present in night session version but that is hardly a real world argument. Better to have the tracks in the route so that any such changes automatically appear in all the sessions.

    Secondly, as Oknotsen pointed out, all the track dependent assets (signals, switches, and most significantly, active industries) would also have to be present in every session.

    Thirdly, if a user downloads the route the first two questions they are going to ask are "where are the tracks and industries" and "who put this rubbish on the DLS"?

    The question of routes vs sessions is explained in the Trainz Wiki page at http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/i...Session_Layers
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  3. #18
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    May I ask a question, give an illustration please, for clarity (for myself) please? Using actual examples....

    I find four version of msgsapper's route "Prog Rail Jessie Jame Line - TRS19" - They have the same Asset ID and are numbered (null), 1, 2, and 3.

    To simplify, I'm going to call them versions 0 thru 3, The original route (0), and it's update (1) are marked as Obsolete. Asset version 2 and 3 are "available for download."

    Versions 0 (original) and 1 have ProTrack.

    Versions 2 and 3 have PBR track and requires shader set to Ultra. I can download either of those. If I download 3, version 2 is overwritten not available in game even though CM still shows it installed. ie: In game only shows latest available game even though older versions are still installed.

    If I want to run Version 1 (the latest ProTrack version) I have to delete versions 2 and 3 IN GAME (thumbnails). All versions still show in CM as installed even though game shows only the latest one available.

    Thus to keep ProTrack version AND latest version IN GAME I need to Edit one of the routes and save under a new route name (new asset). And if I build a Session for either one that "one" should be the original, not the renamed route. Thus, practically speaking, two versions of a Route (for example: "ProTrack" vs. "PBR Track") should exist as two separate "official" routes. If not, things are going to get really crazy with sessions as the session could be ran on a ProTrack version or PBR Track version. Again, this is just an example. I don't think I know of an actual route that has two "official" con-concurrent versions with the same name and asset number.

    I was surprised that "in game" thumbnails are actually only showing only the latest version and NOT what is installed. Why not provide the option to run a previous version if it's installed? Or perhaps I'm missing something.

    I'm relatively new and I think this is how things work.... comments, corrections?

    EDIT-- Additional: Of course, I doubt any of my thoughts here matter as I know the expectation within "Trainz" world is for a Route to only have one "latest" version of the Route which is the one expected to be used, and any and all sessions be expected to work with that latest route (Which is totally dependent upon the session maker to make sure session still works as expected.)??? I do know from my own experience that many Tane route sessions advertised as TRS19 compatible do not work correctly. But that is quite a jump, going from one version (Tane) to another (TRS19).
    Last edited by 1611mac; August 19th, 2019 at 07:28 AM.
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  4. #19
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    I am currently attempting to duplicate your "hypothetical" example using msgsapper's "Progressive Rail Jessie James Line TRS19" layouts but the download and install is taking so loooooong over my slooooow ADSL link, so I will offer my theory on the matter.

    After downloading version 1 (use the "Download this version" option in CM otherwise it will automatically skip to downloading the latest version) I would clone it so that it will be under your own kuid and not that of msgsapper. I would then load the newly cloned route into Surveyor and then create and save a new session for it - this again will be under your kuid. From that point on the route and session are yours and will not be affected by any updates that msgsapper may release.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by pware View Post
    -SNIP-
    After downloading version 1 (use the "Download this version" option in CM otherwise it will automatically skip to downloading the latest version) I would clone it so that it will be under your own kuid and not that of msgsapper. I would then load the newly cloned route into Surveyor and then create and save a new session for it - this again will be under your kuid. From that point on the route and session are yours and will not be affected by any updates that msgsapper may release.
    Yes... but the problem comes if I want to share a session by uploading to DLS/CM. Any session I want to create and share need be done with original owners route.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1611mac View Post
    Yes... but the problem comes if I want to share a session by uploading to DLS/CM. Any session I want to create and share need be done with original owners route.


    This is where these discussions diverge. One can change track and write sessions at will for their own use. But uploaded sessions need to use the original creators route.

    At the next level of complexity, user can download the original route, change track, save the route, and edit any downloaded sessions to point to their newly edited route. In my experience, this will work for every session for which I have tried.
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  7. #22
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    I have created a session for another creators route and successfully uploaded it to the DLS without any problems. The session, when downloaded and installed on a users Trainz system, automatically downloaded and installed the correct route by the original creator. The config.txt file for the session has the original route map kuid listed in both the map-kuid and the first entry ("0") in the kuid-table

    So I am uncertain as to the cause of your problem - perhaps it is the version updates that have obsoleted the route version you have used. EDIT: I think that pitkin's response above has answered this.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pware View Post
    There are many problems with placing tracks (and track objects) into a session instead of the route. While this would work for a route with a single session only it can create headaches when you add a second session. Yes, as Pitkin suggest, you can simply clone the first session and give the copy a new name and carry on working.

    If you later decide to make a change to the tracks, and not just a change to the kuid but to realign them, add new features (industries, signals, bridges, etc), delete a section, and so on then you would have to go into every session and make the same changes to maintain consistency between the sessions. Of course, you could argue that the rail bridge that you added to the day session version does not have to be present in night session version but that is hardly a real world argument. Better to have the tracks in the route so that any such changes automatically appear in all the sessions.

    Secondly, as Oknotsen pointed out, all the track dependent assets (signals, switches, and most significantly, active industries) would also have to be present in every session.

    Thirdly, if a user downloads the route the first two questions they are going to ask are "where are the tracks and industries" and "who put this rubbish on the DLS"?

    The question of routes vs sessions is explained in the Trainz Wiki page at http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/i...Session_Layers
    This has turned out to be a very helpful conversation to me. BTW I was not aware of that Trainz Wiki link so big thanks for posting that!

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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by pware View Post
    The config.txt file for the session has the original route map kuid listed in both the map-kuid and the first entry ("0") in the kuid-table

    So far, I have been successful with only changing the map-kuid. But it your way seems more robust.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pware View Post
    I have created a session for another creators route and successfully uploaded it to the DLS without any problems. The session, when downloaded and installed on a users Trainz system, automatically downloaded and installed the correct route by the original creator. The config.txt file for the session has the original route map kuid listed in both the map-kuid and the first entry ("0") in the kuid-table

    So I am uncertain as to the cause of your problem - perhaps it is the version updates that have obsoleted the route version you have used. EDIT: I think that pitkin's response above has answered this.
    Down to Route version? If I create a session using an older version of the route what happens on the user end if they have a later Route version. The later is used, is it not? In other words, the session uses the proper Route, but won't it always use the route version that's active on the user machine?
    Win 10: TRS19-100240: ASUS B450M-A/CSM, GTX 1060-6 Windforce, 1TB EVO SSD, 224GB system SSD
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1611mac View Post
    Down to Route version? If I create a session using an older version of the route what happens on the user end if they have a later Route version. The later is used, is it not? In other words, the session uses the proper Route, but won't it always use the route version that's active on the user machine?


    Not sure about the version number, but a key word in your question is "proper". If things have changed enough in the new route version, the session may no longer work. One example I have seen is two covered hoppers partially inside each other, and rolling stock you cannot delete.
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  12. #27
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    Yes, as Pitkin suggest, you can simply clone the first session and give the copy a new name and carry on working.

    If you later decide to make a change to the tracks, and not just a change to the kuid but to realign them, add new features (industries, signals, bridges, etc), delete a section, and so on then you would have to go into every session and make the same changes to maintain consistency between the sessions. Of course, you could argue that the rail bridge that you added to the day session version does not have to be present in night session version but that is hardly a real world argument. Better to have the tracks in the route so that any such changes automatically appear in all the sessions.

    ************************************************** *********************

    Yes, they will appear in all the sessions, but the sessions may not work correctly then. For example, a tank car placed on a track that has been moved elsewhere.

    (Just for the record, I never said it was a good idea to put all the tracks in the session. I merely pointed out that it is possible for the experienced and/or foolhardy to place a select few of them in the session ).
    Last edited by pitkin; August 19th, 2019 at 02:50 PM.
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  13. #28
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    Somewhat on topic. One thing I've found is that it is completely possible to add as many scenery objects as you desire to the session without causing a route save. You simply lock the route layer, switch to the session layer, add objects, then unlock the route layer and save. This can be very powerful, allowing a creator to make a session that has an empty lot and another session with a skyscraper in the lot. A field of trees in one session and a field of stumps in another session. etc. etc. When working on a session for a route on the DLS you can make unlimited additions to the scenery of the route so long as you do not attempt to remove anything that is built into the route. I haven't tried it yet but it might be possible to add a entire new railroad to an existing route on the session layer without changing the original route.

    By locking the route layer it should be possible to discover whether adding a signal or anything else would force a route save or not, you will get an error message if you are attempting to change the route layer. You just have to remember to switch to the session layer before making your changes and to unlock the route layer before saving. (Leaving the route layer locked is a change to the route layer and would force a route save to a new route. Edit; unless the route is already locked)

    Edit; Yup it is possible to add a separate rail line to an existing route on the session layer.



    I added this simple monorail loop to a payware route as a session without having to save the route as a new route. I have not added switches, stations, and signals to the new rail line yet but do not expect problems.
    Last edited by normhart; August 19th, 2019 at 04:04 PM.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1611mac View Post
    Down to Route version? If I create a session using an older version of the route what happens on the user end if they have a later Route version. The later is used, is it not? In other words, the session uses the proper Route, but won't it always use the route version that's active on the user machine?
    On that very question, to go back to my example of making a session for a route created by another user, the route was updated by the creator after my session was uploaded and the session then referenced the new route, not the old one. The end result was that my session no longer worked correctly because the changes that had been made prevented some of my session rules from working. I had to update and reissue the session.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by normhart View Post
    Yup it is possible to add a separate rail line to an existing route on the session layer.

    <snip>

    I added this simple monorail loop to a payware route as a session without having to save the route as a new route. I have not added switches, stations, and signals to the new rail line yet but do not expect problems.
    As long as the new session track does not join onto the existing route track then there should be no problems. But if you join the two tracks together then you have made a change to the original route and you can then expect "trouble".

    Also, you will have to add any switches, signals, etc for your new session track to the same session layer (or to a layer lower down in the session list).
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