.
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 23 of 23

Thread: 1914 UK East Coast Joint Stock Carriage Roster

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,160
     

    Default The Theory and the Practise

    Theory and Practise

    Which carriage diagrams were used to comply with the 1914 Through Carriage Working Instructions? The E.C.J.S. practise of referring to a carriage by its “Class” (the lowest number carriage of the type) persisted through to the 1930s on the L.N.E.R.

    The Full brakes of “Class 19” to E.C. Diagram 35 is one example, where to meet the requirements of the 1914 T.C.W.I. required more carriages of the class/diagram than actually existed. My belief is that the operating department considered that “class 19” could be met by using carriages from E.C. Diagram 39 and in practise pooled E.C. Diagram 35 and 39 carriages together. Nowhere in the 1914 T.C.W.I. does “class 126” appear (the lowest number assigned to an E.C. Diag 39 Brake).

    A second potential example is also revealed by “over-rostering” in the 1914 T.C.W.I. This is the “Class 262”, the E.C. Diagram 50 Brake Third. Each weekday the T.C.W.I. requires four of them to run in the down direction but only three were built, at Doncaster in 1896/7. Doncaster built three more, though opposite-handed, in 1897, but designated as E.C. Diag 51. This would have been “Class 265” and it appears nowhere in the T.C.W.I.

    There are some conundrums with these carriages. The first one is that the drawing for E.C. Diagram 50 shows it as having the corridor on the east side/right side of the carriage (where the brake end is at the south, buffers end of Kings Cross) which is unconventional for an E.C.J.S. coach, but the works photograph shows what looks like the corridor is on the conventional, left/west side!! The second conundrum is that the brake end had no corridor connection, making them “semi-vestibule” and operationally inflexible. According to Hoole Doncaster built the three E.C. Diagram 51 “opposite handed” but suspects that they were again not built to diagram. Does this mean that the Diagram 51 was built with the unconventional corridor side (opposite the as-built E.C. Diag 50) or with the conventional corridor side (opposite the E.C. Diag 50 drawing)? The only photograph of an E.C. Diag 51 in Hoole does not really show An E.C. Diag 51, it shows a Cowlairs built E.C. Diag 52!! In Hoole the E.C. Diagram 50 photograph caption wrongly says the carriage was built in 1907. It was built in 1897.

    The 1914 T.C.W.I. has the “Class 262”/E.C. Diag 50 “book-ending” the consist of the 8:15 p.m. While this is no problem for the carriage at the south end of the train where the T.C.W.I. explicitly requires the carriage to have the brake end at the south end, it is a problem for any passengers in the “Class 262”/E.C. Diag 50 at the head of the train as the T.C.W.I. explicitly requires this carriage brake end to be at the south end, meaning there was no access between this carriage and the rest of the train. In reality, being an overnight train and only attached at Newcastle around 3:00 a.m. this may not have been a great inconvenience. On the 11:45 p.m. the presence of a “Class 262”/E.C. Diag 50 isolates the Glasgow and Edinburgh portions from the North Berwick and Newcastle portions, splitting the train in two.

    Returning southbound on different trains, avoiding the same isolation would necessitate marshalling each carriage at the head of the southbound Up train. There is no record of the brake ends subsequently receiving corridor connectors. By 1914 almost all rosters for these carriages were on overnight trains. One did have a daytime roster in the up direction, on the 10:25 a.m. oddity from Edinburgh. One can only hope that it was marshalled at the head of the train.

    I am at a loss to explain why, in 1914, the operating department continued to heavily use the seventeen-year old “Class 262” with their lack of corridor connection, when there were fourteen newer Brake Third carriages to “Class 283/322/323” with no visible presence in that season’s T.C.W.I. Presumably these other carriages were earmarked "for greater things", perhaps they were in carriage sidings in sets for the duplicate services of the premier trains.

    Another example are the full brakes of “Class 45” (E.C. Diagram 36). There were sixteen of them, though the three E.C. Diagram 42, also built at Cowlairs, were almost identical, yet appear nowhere in the 1914 T.C.W.I. (where they would be “Class 289”).

    During 1914, approximately 330 carriages were in E.C.J.S. stock. On a weekday, only 157 carriages were required to meet the requirements of the T.C.W.I. The degree of utilisation varied by class and type. 23 carriages were brake composites, 34 were brake thirds, 33 were compartment composites, 72 were compartment thirds, and merely 8 were compartment firsts. There were 15 kitchen carriages, 31 open dining thirds (15 with pantries) and only two open dining firsts. As to the more specialised carriages there were 49 sleeping cars, of which 11 were composite carriages where Third Class passengers still only had seated compartments. The E.C.J.S had approximately 64 full brakes on stock, of which around 12 were 6-wheelers.

    Hoole reports that the 10:36 a.m. from London to Edinburgh was allocated a Great Northern & North Eastern Joint Stock Kitchen First and Pantry Third from London to Newcastle, which was exchanged for a North Eastern Railway Dining Composite and North Eastern Railway Corridor Brake Composite for the onward journey to Edinburgh. Unfortunately Hoole does not mention the date of his source for his Through Carriage Working Instructions. The 1914 T.C.W.I. explicitly allocates E.C.J.S. carriages. The G.N.&.N.E.J.S Kitchen Firsts were built in 1906/6 but the N.E.R. Dining Composites weren't built until 1908, Isinglass's drawings mentioning they were for the "Newcastle to Edinburgh service". It is quite possible that the 10:36 Hoole mentions was prior to 1914 or was a winter timetable configuration.
    Last edited by borderreiver; September 7th, 2019 at 04:19 AM. Reason: Reformatting

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,160
     

    Default Further Observations on Composite Sleeping Carriages

    It would appear that there was a demand for composite sleeping carriages I had not previously considered. Hoole reports in his book on E.C.J.S. carriages that wealthy families found it convenient to hire a whole sleeping composite. The Master, Mistress and children occupied the First Class sleeping berths whilst the servants occupied the Third Class compartments. This provides the opportunity to have a sleeping composite working on from Edinburgh, Glasgow, Perth or Aberdeen since the carriage would be on private charter.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom, Cheshire
    Posts
    3,560
     

    Default

    Interesting stuff, borderreiver.

    Rob.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,160
     

    Default 1914 E.C.J.S. Down Express Passenger Train Detailed breakdown - Further Information

    I have been lucky to receive some detailed information on the Summer 1914 East Coast Joint Company Through Carriage Working Instructions.

    ¹ indicates dual braked
    * indicates non-vestibule carriage

    Weekdays – Monday to Saturday
    5:05 a.m. London to Edinburgh.
    Mon - Fri Nine carriage set on departure London. 220T 8 Cwt.Sat Ten carriage set on departure London. 243T 9Cwt

    Leeds to York Westinghouse brake
    London to Edinburgh (arr 1:32 p.m.)
    BG¹ #19 Diag 35
    London to York (arr 9:18 a.m.)
    GNR BG¹ 22T 7Cwt
    GNR C* 28T 18Cwt 10 1st 20 3rd seats
    GNR BT* 14T 11Cwt 40 3rd seats 4 compartment 6-wheeler
    London to Leeds
    GNR BCK 33T 18Cwt 10 1st 20 3rd seats
    GNR 6W Mail van 16 T
    GNR BG 23t 1Cwt
    London to Bradford
    GNR BCK 33T 18Cwt 10 1st 20 3rd seats
    London to Nottingham
    GNR BG 23t 1Cwt Saturdays Only
    London to Grimsby
    GNR BG 23t 1Cwt
    Doncaster to York
    GNR BC 15T 14Cwt 12 1st 20 3rd seats 6 wheeler
    GNR T 13T 17Cwt 50 3rd seats 6 wheeler Mondays Only and Alternate Thursdaya
    Peterborough to Doncaster
    GNR T 13T 17Cwt 50 3rd seats Mondays Only
    GNR T 13T 17Cwt 50 3rd seats Mondays Only
    Leeds to Glasgow (arr 3:28 p.m.)
    NER BFK¹ Diag 200 27T 5Cwt 12 seats
    NER FO Diag 158 28T 10Cwt 36 seats
    NER RT Diag 170 41T 10Cwt 30 3rd seats
    NER TO Diag 155 28T 13Cwt 42 3rd seats
    NER TK Diag 156 29T 10Cwt 42 3rd seats (7 compt x 6 pax when built 1909 - later 56 3rd seats 7 compt x 8 pax)
    NER TK Diag 156 29T 10Cwt 42 3rd seats (7 compt x 6 pax when built 1909 - later 56 3rd seats 7 compt x 8 pax) Mon Fri Sat Only
    NER BTK¹ Diag 157 27T 14Cwt 18 3rd seats (3 compt x 6 pax when built 1908 - later 24 3rd seats 3 compt x 8 pax)

    The only carriage travelling from London to Edinburgh is the ECJS BG. This train is a perfect illustration of how the GNR moved mails and parcels along the Great Northern main Line (East Coast Main Line).
    On a Saturday morning no less than five BGs, one being the ECJS one, a 6 wheel mail van, a 6 wheel Compo, a 6 wheel Brake Third, and two BCKs (why would anyone get in the 6-wheelers when they could ride as far as Doncaster in a BCK?). Carriages added at Peterborough for Doncaster on Mondays Only and removal of the Grimsby BG, a BG removed at Grantham for Nottingham (Saturdays Only), carriages removed at Doncaster for Leeds and Bradford, then the ECJS BG being added to the Leeds - Glasgow NER service.

    What a sight on arrival at York. An ECJS BG at the head, a GNR BG, GNR 6w Compo, GNR 6w Brake Third, GNR 6w Brake Compo and (on Mondays and alternate Thursdays) a GNR 6w Third. in 1914 this was, for the passengers, something out of their parents era. Any hardy traveller from London (as well as Peterborough, Grantham and Retford) would have had to transfer to the GNR 6-wheelers for York at Doncaster. if they intended to go on to Darlington, Newcastle Edinburgh or Glasgow then they would have to change train at York from the GNR one to the NER one. On boarding the NER express there was the lure of the breakfast service in the dining carriages.
    Last edited by borderreiver; September 17th, 2019 at 07:53 PM. Reason: more to say

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,160
     

    Default 1914 E.C.J.S. Down Express Passenger Train Detailed breakdown - Further Information 2

    More information from the detailed information on the Summer 1914 East Coast Joint Company Through Carriage Working Instructions.
    this time it is an N.E.R. express but it explains how the dining carriages which ran with the 7:45 a.m. up service got to Edinburgh Waverley.

    ¹ indicates dual braked
    * indicates non-vestibule carriage

    Weekdays – Monday to Saturday
    9:57 a.m. York to Edinburgh.
    Eight carriage set on departure York. 176T 14Cwt.

    Leeds (dep 9:40 a.m.) to Edinburgh (arr 3:31 p.m.)
    NER BCK¹ Diag 174 26T 15Cwt 9 1st 18 3rd seats
    NER TK Diag 156 29T 10Cwt 42 3rd seats (7 compt x 6 pax when built 1909 - later 56 3rd seats 7 compt x 8 pax) Mon Tue Fri Sat Only
    Newcastle (dep 12:12 p.m.) to Edinburgh
    NER RC Diag 166 30T 15Cwt 10 1st 15 3rd seats ( A Diagram 166 weighed 40T and sat 13 of each class)
    NER BCK¹ Diag 174 26T 15Cwt 9 1st 18 3rd seats
    York to Edinburgh
    NER BT¹* Diag 18 23T 13Cwt 30 3rd seats
    NER C* Diag 5 27T 29 1st 24 3rd seats
    Sheffield (dep 8:40 a.m.) to Edinburgh
    NER BT¹* Diag 18 23T 13Cwt 30 3rd seats
    NER C* Diag 5 27T 29 1st 24 3rd seats
    NER T* Diag 14 25T 5Cwt 80 3rd seats
    NER T* Diag 14 25T 5Cwt 80 3rd seats
    NER BT¹* Diag 18 23T 13Cwt 30 3rd seats
    York to Keswick (arr 2:00 p.m.)
    NER BCL¹* Diag 27 26T 10Cwt 9 1st 18 3rd seats


    I have used the following documents in compiling the following explanation:

    Bradshaw’s April 1910
    Bradshaw’s July 1922
    NERA publication on N.E.R. Timetable October 1912 to March 1913
    NERA publication on the LNER NE Area July 1926 Carriage roster
    NERA publications on N.E.R. Carriage drawings and E.C.J.S. Carriage Drawings.
    Various Isinglass Models Drawings.

    The Leeds portion BCK weighing 26 Tons 15 Cwt seating 9 First and 18 Third Class passengers is a conundrum. The Diagram 174 BCK built in 1909 & 1912 (the LNER built several more in 1924) weighed 28 Tons 17 Cwt with dual brakes in the Isinglass drawing but sat 12 First and 24 Third Class passengers, though the NERA drawing is annotated as "actually 18 Third". Nine is an uncommon figure for the First Class. Two compartments seating two a side would seat eight while three a side would seat twelve. The N.E.R. in 1898 built ten Diagram 27 non-corridor 52ft Lavatory Van Composites seating 9 First and 18 Third (later changed to 24 Third), weighing 26T 6Cwt in its single braked version (which may have been 26T 15Cwt in dual braked form) but the T.C.W.I. lacks the * to indicate non-corridor stock.

    The Newcastle portion Brake Composite paired with the Dining Composite in the Newcastle to Edinburgh portion is described in the same way as the Leeds to Edinburgh carriage. It appears counter-productive to pair a non-corridor/non-vestibule carriage with a dining carriage but then the 9:57 a.m. train from York is mostly comprises non-vestibule carriages.

    My opinion is that the TCWI is a guide and that the key issues are that the carriage provided was dual braked, was a corridor/vestibule type and that the seating is a recommended minimum. If an NER dual braked Diagram 174 was supplied for each carriage then each provided 12 First and 24 Third Class seats and exceeded the T.C.W.I. minimum requirements.

    The Dining Composite (RC) also requires investigation. The N.E.R. Diagram 166 weighed 40 Tons and sat 13 of each class. 30 Tons seating 10 First and 15 Third is strange. I can’t find the N.E.R. having a carriage matching those specifications in 1914, even when considering carriages cascaded from the East Coast Joint Company. Six years prior to 1914 the N.E.R. built three Diagram 166 RC carriages, expressly for Newcastle to Liverpool and Newcastle to Edinburgh services so the East Coast T.C.W.I. seems to require a carriage the N.E.R. did not have.

    The train is an example of portioned working, attaching and removing through carriages en-route. The train has four portions for Edinburgh, from Sheffield, Leeds, York and Newcastle, with a fifth portion travelling to Keswick from York, detaching at Darlington. The portion from Sheffield joined at York with the York to Edinburgh portion. The Leeds to Edinburgh portion travelled via the Leeds Northern. It stopped at Harrogate but not at Ripon or Northallerton. The York portion arrived Newcastle at 11:55 with the Leeds portion arriving four minutes later at 11:59 a.m. the York portion was six minutes ahead of the Leeds portion on departure Darlington but stopped at Durham, which the following Leeds portion omitted. The York, Leeds and Newcastle portions were combined for Edinburgh and departed at 12:12 p.m. A busy thirteen minutes shunting.

    The timings were obviously leisurely. The 8:55 a.m. from Leeds, travelling via York, arrived at Edinburgh two hours before this train, which departed only 45 minutes later.

    The portion from Sheffield, is largest one in the train. With the N.E.R. having relatively few vestibule/corridor carriages (only around 74 in 1922) it is perhaps unsurprising that the company rostered non-corridor/non-vestibule carriages for the portion, though the journey was similar in length to that between Newcastle and Liverpool, which had benefitted from corridor stock for around six years by 1914.

    The T.C.W.I. does not indicate which Sheffield station the portion originated. In 1914 both the Great Central and Midland Railways were different companies and still eight years away from the Big Four merger, which no-one could predict at the time. Examining the timetables and carriage rosters the portion would appear to originate at Sheffield Victoria. However, one has to dig for it since none of the timetables for York to Edinburgh lists a connection time for a train from Sheffield!

    Bradshaw’s 1910 and the NER 1912-13 timetables are “winter” timetables, operating for most of the year. Bradshaw’s 1922 and the NE Area 1926 roster are summer documents but from between eight to twelve years later. The N.E.R. 1912-13 has the 9:57 a.m. York to Edinburgh and lists it in the table for Dining trains, so it was a year-round train, but no Sheffield portion seems evident then. By 1922 there is no 9:57, but there is a 10:05 a.m. which arrives Edinburgh 3:48 p.m. but lacks the “Restaurant Car Express” notation granted to the 9:38 a.m. York to Glasgow. Again, no Sheffield portion for the 10:05 a.m. is evident. The NE Area 1926 Roster has set No. 118, the “Glasgow to Sheffield (Vic) Portion” and is an “XBCCV” (52ft Corridor Brake Composite with dual brake). This however, is rostered to attach to the 9:38 a.m. and appears to travel to York attached to set No. 293.

    I feel it worth it to divert a little to look at the 1926 Sheffield to Glasgow through carriage. The 1926 roster has 8:07 a.m. from Sheffield for set No. 293, 8:13 a.m. for set No. 118 and Bradshaw’s 1922 G.C.R. Manchester to Cleethorpes timetable lists a “Through train to York” at 8:15 a.m. (via Rotherham & Masboro arrives 8:25 departs 8:27) which arrives York at 9:21 a.m. The set No. 118 carriage then attaches to set No. 313 the “Leeds and Glasgow (corridor) set departing at 9:38 a.m. The 1926 Set No. 313 arrives back at York 9:44 p.m. with the “XBCCV” departing for Sheffield at 10:03 p.m. attached to set No. 431 for Bristol! Set 431 was made up of G.C.R. and G.W.R. carriages on alternate days. The “XBCCV” arrived Sheffield (Vic) at 11:35 p.m. Bradshaw’s 1922 G.C.R. Cleethorpes to Manchester timetable shows the train spending 15 minutes at Rotherham & Masboro (11:07 to 11:25 p.m.) I think that shunting was going on there. Set 431 departed York with vans from Glasgow to Westbury, Newcastle to Calne and Newcastle to Yeovil attached to its core two-carriage consist.

    I believe that the Sheffield portion in 1914 is possibly from Sheffield Victoria and potentially a summer service, hence it not appearing in the winter timetables. I also believe that, in my opinion, that by 1922, post WWI that the Sheffield portion for the 9:57’s successor, the 10:05 a.m. no longer ran. I think that it was superseded by a year-round through carriage attached to the 8:55 a.m. Leeds to Glasgow, which departed York at 9:38 a.m. The existence of the 1926 "XBCCV" confirms that the Corridor Brake Composite type was the "go to" carriage for the minimum provision of through carriage and anyone modelling the post-WWI Leeds to Glasgow train must acknowledge the likely presence of a former corridor N.E.R. BCK in the consist. I say N.E.R. because the ”XBCCV” in set No. 118 is not described as a “foreign” (other company or non-LNER NE Area) carriage.
    A final note. The 9:57 a.m. carriages returned to their homes in five different ways. The Leeds portion turned around quickly, heading south with the 5:45 p.m. from Edinburgh. The Newcastle portion returned south attached to the 7:45 a.m. from Edinburgh to London the following day, detached at Newcastle. The York portion returned south attached to the same evening’s 7:45 p.m. Edinburgh to London service but the portion is bound for Normanton. This is significant since the T.C.W.I. shows them attached to the 7:45 p.m. along with the N.E.R. T.P.O. which had travelled north from York attached to the head of the 10 a.m. from Kings Cross!! I am frustrated that Harris did not list this in his book or even mention it. I will edit the previous UP express detailed listings.

    The Sheffield portion “returned locally” to Newcastle and was attached to the following day’s 12:20 p.m. Newcastle to Sheffield. The York to Keswick through carriage also “returned locally”. I take “returned locally” to mean attached to the first convenient service heading that way and do not discount that they were run as empty stock.
    Last edited by borderreiver; September 19th, 2019 at 05:15 AM. Reason: reformatting and more to say

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia, NSW, Karuah
    Posts
    847
     

    Default

    Good heavens, I did not intend to open up another can of worms for you.
    You obviously have a computer in your noggin, as I myself am unable to co-relate all that data.
    Keep On Keeping On
    JackDownUnder

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,160
     

    Default Editing and Extra Information

    Hello Jack

    Thanks. I have edited post #20 to make it clearer. I also need to go back to add the new information about the 7:45 p.m. Up consist.

    Posts 19 and 20 indicate what a mixture of carriages could be seen on services during the steam era. I have looked in Steve Banks and Clive Carter's book "LNER passenger Trains 1923-67 the Principal Services" and read the entry regarding the Sheffield to Glasgow through carriage. they report that "in the first years of the L.N.E.R. the NE Area provided an ex-N.E.R. BCK (2,3) and (on Saturdays) an ex-G.C.R. TK, Parker or matchboard." The carriage was meant to provide businessmen with a morning train because cross-country and other express trains from London inevitably meant mid-day or evening departures. Both had been replaced by equivalent Gresley carriages by the 1930s. So, at least the service seems to have operated up to WWII. They go on to clarify that the through carriage was attached to a "two-set of ex-N.E.R. non-corridor carriages, clerestory or elliptical roofed whose roster covered intermediate stations between Sheffield, York and Doncaster". They go on to report that the two-set was still in use with the train during the late 1930s, striking quite a contrast.

    For the return journey Banks and Carter rightly say how it got back to York, though identify the departure from York as the 10:15 p.m. for Swindon, virtually a parcels train, which means that their source is possibly not the 1926 NE Area Roster. They go on to say that the Swindon train did not travel via Sheffield, so the carriage was at the rear and detached at Rotherham, possibly with a light engine coming to collect them. Bradshaw's 1922 shows it as a through train from York but does not preclude the possibility of an engine attaching to the carriages detached at Rotherham (back to that 15 minute layover). Bradshaw's July 1938 York to Edinburgh table shows a connection from Sheffield Vic departing 8:05 a.m with a TC (through carriage Sheffield to Glasgow). The return gets to Sheffield at 11:57 p.m. The Manchester to Cleethorpes timetable shows the 8:05 a.m. departure, with Rotherham & Masboro at 8:27 a.m. and York at 9:20 a.m. Southbound the table shows the 10:13 departure from York with the Rotherham & Masboro departure at 11:43 p.m. and the 11:57 p.m arrival at Sheffield Victoria.

    I do not know when the through carriage stopped.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,160
     

    Default The 1914 T.C.W.I.

    Acquiring the 1914 East Coast Through Carriage workings provides a much more complete picture than the extract reproduced by Harris in his 1995 book "Great Northern Railway and East Coast Joint Stock Carriages from 1905". Another revelation is that Harris omitted the page which showed that the 8:45 p.m. Down train had a Saturday variation. There is some balancing to do on the stock roster spreadsheet with the discovery of extra timetabled trains entering the mix.

    There are changes to my assumptions and in particular the 7:45 p.m. Up departure from Edinburgh as well as the 12:00 Sunday Up train from Edinburgh are much more complex trains than I previoulsy thought. It is significant that the 1914 T.C.W.I. reveals the 7:45 p.m. did run on Saturday nights. It is also significant that the presence of N.E.R. carriages in the 12:00 Sunday Up departure because I now have six Down workings conveying an N.E.R. two-car Dining set (12:12 p.m. from Newcastle Monday to Saturday) but seven Up workings (the 7:45 a.m. from Edinburgh Monday to Saturday and the 12:00 from Edinburgh on Sunday). Add to that the presence of three N.E.R. corridor carriages in the 12:00 Up departure noted as working Down on the 1:30 p.m. from Normanton.

    I have been determining the details about that train from Normanton. There must have been a reason to start the train there, probably the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway connection from Liverpool Exchange (dep) and Manchester Victoria (dep 10:55) which arrived at 1:09 p.m.. A Midland connection existed from Sheffield (departure 9:05 a.m.) but arrived Normanton as early as 10:25 a.m.! A G.C.R. through train ran from Nottingham at 12:55 p.m. to York but arrived at 2:55 p.m. an hour too late to make what would have been a valuable connection. the L.N.W.R. missed a connection too, with the 10:45 a.m. from Liverpool Lime Street and 12:05 p.m. from Manchester Exchange not reaching Leeds (New) until 2:38 p.m. with York not reached until 3:22 p.m. Astonishingly, to catch Sunday's 2:04 p.m. from York a Leeds passenger had to leave Leeds (New) station at 9:00 a.m.. The G.N.R. missed by an even greater margin than the L.N.W.R., with the 11:40 a.m. Kings Cross Luncheon Car Express not reaching York until 3:55 p.m. Despite the long-standing degree of co-operation on the East Coast Main Line between the G.N.R. and N.E.R. it is surprising that in 1914 there was no effort made to provide a connection to Scotland.

    Bradshaws April 1910: - Sundays Table 722: Liverpool Exchange 9:06 a.m. Manchester Victoria 10:40 a.m. Normanton 1:30 p.m.York 2:04 p.m. Newcastle 4:03 p.m.
    NER 1912 - 1913: - Sundays Page 133: Liverpool Exchange 9:00 a.m. Manchester Victoria 10:55 a.m. Normanton 1:30 p.m.York 2:04 p.m. Newcastle 4:03 p.m.
    NER 1912 - 1913: - Sundays Page 45: York 2:30 p.m. Tea Car Express Newcastle to Edinburgh. Newcastle 4:03 - 4:10 p.m. Edinburgh 6:53 p.m.
    NER 1912 - 1913: - Sundays Page 101: Normanton 1:30 p.m. Monk Fryston picks up as required Hull to York passengers York 2:09 p.m. Newcastle 4;03 p.m.
    Bradshaw's 1922: - No service located
    LNER NEA 1926: - Sundays Page 93: Set No. 552 1:30 p.m. Normanton York 2:09 p.m. - Leeds and Scarborough five non-corridor carriage set with L&YR "VV" attached. No set working Normanton to Edinburgh shown.

    It is not clear whether the trains in Bradshaws 1910 or the NER 1912-13 work merely from Normanton or whether the set originates at Manchester or Liverpool.
    In any event, it appears that the NER 1912 - 1913 points to a likely candidate for the seventh Down working of an N.E.R. Dining set.
    Last edited by borderreiver; September 20th, 2019 at 08:40 PM. Reason: Spelling

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •