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Thread: 1914 UK East Coast Joint Stock Carriage Roster

  1. #16
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    Default The Theory and the Practise

    Theory and Practise

    Which carriage diagrams were used to comply with the 1914 Through Carriage Working Instructions? The E.C.J.S. practise of referring to a carriage by its “Class” (the lowest number carriage of the type) persisted through to the 1930s on the L.N.E.R.

    The Full brakes of “Class 19” to E.C. Diagram 35 is one example, where to meet the requirements of the 1914 T.C.W.I. required more carriages of the class/diagram than actually existed. My belief is that the operating department considered that “class 19” could be met by using carriages from E.C. Diagram 39 and in practise pooled E.C. Diagram 35 and 39 carriages together. Nowhere in the 1914 T.C.W.I. does “class 126” appear (the lowest number assigned to an E.C. Diag 39 Brake).

    A second potential example is also revealed by “over-rostering” in the 1914 T.C.W.I. This is the “Class 262”, the E.C. Diagram 50 Brake Third. Each weekday the T.C.W.I. requires four of them to run in the down direction but only three were built, at Doncaster in 1896/7. Doncaster built three more, though opposite-handed, in 1897, but designated as E.C. Diag 51. This would have been “Class 265” and it appears nowhere in the T.C.W.I.

    There are some conundrums with these carriages. The first one is that the drawing for E.C. Diagram 50 shows it as having the corridor on the east side/right side of the carriage (where the brake end is at the south, buffers end of Kings Cross) which is unconventional for an E.C.J.S. coach, but the works photograph shows what looks like the corridor is on the conventional, left/west side!! The second conundrum is that the brake end had no corridor connection, making them “semi-vestibule” and operationally inflexible. According to Hoole Doncaster built the three E.C. Diagram 51 “opposite handed” but suspects that they were again not built to diagram. Does this mean that the Diagram 51 was built with the unconventional corridor side (opposite the as-built E.C. Diag 50) or with the conventional corridor side (opposite the E.C. Diag 50 drawing)? The only photograph of an E.C. Diag 51 in Hoole does not really show An E.C. Diag 51, it shows a Cowlairs built E.C. Diag 52!! In Hoole the E.C. Diagram 50 photograph caption wrongly says the carriage was built in 1907. It was built in 1897.

    The 1914 T.C.W.I. has the “Class 262”/E.C. Diag 50 “book-ending” the consist of the 8:15 p.m. While this is no problem for the carriage at the south end of the train where the T.C.W.I. explicitly requires the carriage to have the brake end at the south end, it is a problem for any passengers in the “Class 262”/E.C. Diag 50 at the head of the train as the T.C.W.I. explicitly requires this carriage brake end to be at the south end, meaning there was no access between this carriage and the rest of the train. In reality, being an overnight train and only attached at Newcastle around 3:00 a.m. this may not have been a great inconvenience. On the 11:45 p.m. the presence of a “Class 262”/E.C. Diag 50 isolates the Glasgow and Edinburgh portions from the North Berwick and Newcastle portions, splitting the train in two.

    Returning southbound on different trains, avoiding the same isolation would necessitate marshalling each carriage at the head of the southbound Up train. There is no record of the brake ends subsequently receiving corridor connectors. By 1914 almost all rosters for these carriages were on overnight trains. One did have a daytime roster in the up direction, on the 10:25 a.m. oddity from Edinburgh. One can only hope that it was marshalled at the head of the train.

    I am at a loss to explain why, in 1914, the operating department continued to heavily use the seventeen-year old “Class 262” with their lack of corridor connection, when there were fourteen newer Brake Third carriages to “Class 283/322/323” with no visible presence in that season’s T.C.W.I. Presumably these other carriages were earmarked "for greater things", perhaps they were in carriage sidings in sets for the duplicate services of the premier trains.

    Another example are the full brakes of “Class 45” (E.C. Diagram 36). There were sixteen of them, though the three E.C. Diagram 42, also built at Cowlairs, were almost identical, yet appear nowhere in the 1914 T.C.W.I. (where they would be “Class 289”).

    During 1914, approximately 330 carriages were in E.C.J.S. stock. On a weekday, only 157 carriages were required to meet the requirements of the T.C.W.I. The degree of utilisation varied by class and type. 23 carriages were brake composites, 34 were brake thirds, 33 were compartment composites, 72 were compartment thirds, and merely 8 were compartment firsts. There were 15 kitchen carriages, 31 open dining thirds (15 with pantries) and only two open dining firsts. As to the more specialised carriages there were 49 sleeping cars, of which 11 were composite carriages where Third Class passengers still only had seated compartments. The E.C.J.S had approximately 64 full brakes on stock, of which around 12 were 6-wheelers.

    Hoole reports that the 10:36 a.m. from London to Edinburgh was allocated a Great Northern & North Eastern Joint Stock Kitchen First and Pantry Third from London to Newcastle, which was exchanged for a North Eastern Railway Dining Composite and North Eastern Railway Corridor Brake Composite for the onward journey to Edinburgh. Unfortunately Hoole does not mention the date of his source for his Through Carriage Working Instructions. The 1914 T.C.W.I. explicitly allocates E.C.J.S. carriages. The G.N.&.N.E.J.S Kitchen Firsts were built in 1906 but the N.E.R. Dining Composites weren't built until 1908 (2020 addition - muddied somewhat by the D.105 RC of 1905 but no N.E.R. BCK built until 1909), Isinglass's drawings mentioning they were for the "Newcastle to Edinburgh service". It is quite possible that the 10:36 Hoole mentions was after 1909 but prior to 1914, or was a winter timetable configuration.
    Last edited by borderreiver; June 3rd, 2020 at 06:17 PM. Reason: Reformatting

  2. #17
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    Default Further Observations on Composite Sleeping Carriages

    It would appear that there was a demand for composite sleeping carriages I had not previously considered. Hoole reports in his book on E.C.J.S. carriages that wealthy families found it convenient to hire a whole sleeping composite. The Master, Mistress and children occupied the First Class sleeping berths whilst the servants occupied the Third Class compartments. This provides the opportunity to have a sleeping composite working on from Edinburgh, Glasgow, Perth or Aberdeen since the carriage would be on private charter.

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    Default

    Interesting stuff, borderreiver.

    Rob.

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    Default 1914 E.C.J.S. Down Express Passenger Train Detailed breakdown - Further Information

    I have been lucky to receive some detailed information on the Summer 1914 East Coast Joint Company Through Carriage Working Instructions.

    ¹ indicates dual braked
    * indicates non-vestibule carriage

    Weekdays – Monday to Saturday
    5:05 a.m. London to Edinburgh.
    Mon - Fri Nine carriage set on departure London. 220T 8 Cwt.
    Sat - Ten carriage set on departure London. 243T 9Cwt

    Leeds to York Westinghouse brake
    London to Edinburgh (arr 1:32 p.m.)
    BG¹ #19 Diag 35

    London to York (arr 9:18 a.m.)
    GNR BG¹ 22T 7Cwt
    GNR C* 28T 18Cwt 10 1st 20 3rd seats
    GNR BT* 14T 11Cwt 40 3rd seats 4 compartment 6-wheeler

    London to Leeds
    GNR BCK 33T 18Cwt 10 1st 20 3rd seats
    GNR 6W Mail van 16 T
    GNR BG 23t 1Cwt

    London to Bradford
    GNR BCK 33T 18Cwt 10 1st 20 3rd seats

    London to Nottingham
    GNR BG 23t 1Cwt Saturdays Only

    London to Grimsby
    GNR BG 23t 1Cwt

    Doncaster to York
    GNR BC 15T 14Cwt 12 1st 20 3rd seats 6 wheeler
    GNR T 13T 17Cwt 50 3rd seats 6 wheeler Mondays Only and Alternate Thursdays

    Peterborough to Doncaster
    GNR T 13T 17Cwt 50 3rd seats Mondays Only
    GNR T 13T 17Cwt 50 3rd seats Mondays Only

    Leeds to Glasgow (arr 3:28 p.m.)
    NER BFK¹ Diag 200 27T 5Cwt 12 seats
    NER FO Diag 158 28T 10Cwt 36 seats
    NER RT Diag 170 41T 10Cwt 30 3rd seats
    NER TO Diag 155 28T 13Cwt 42 3rd seats
    NER TK Diag 156 29T 10Cwt 42 3rd seats (7 compt x 6 pax when built 1909 - later 56 3rd seats 7 compt x 8 pax)
    NER TK Diag 156 29T 10Cwt 42 3rd seats (7 compt x 6 pax when built 1909 - later 56 3rd seats 7 compt x 8 pax) Mon Fri Sat Only
    NER BTK¹ Diag 157 27T 14Cwt 18 3rd seats (3 compt x 6 pax when built 1908 - later 24 3rd seats 3 compt x 8 pax)

    The only carriage travelling from London to Edinburgh is the ECJS BG. This train is a perfect illustration of how the GNR moved mails and parcels along the Great Northern main Line (East Coast Main Line).
    On a Saturday morning no less than five BGs, one being the ECJS one, a 6 wheel mail van, a 6 wheel Compo, a 6 wheel Brake Third, and two BCKs (why would anyone get in the 6-wheelers when they could ride as far as Doncaster in a BCK?).

    Peterborough call. Monday Only - Attach carriages for Doncaster. Daily - detach Grimsby BG.
    Grantham call. Saturday Only - Detach Nottingham BG
    Doncaster call. - Detach carriages for Leeds and Bradford.
    York call. - Detach the ECJS BG and attach to the Leeds - Glasgow N.E.R. service.

    What a sight on arrival at York. An ECJS BG at the head, a GNR BG, GNR 6w Compo, GNR 6w Brake Third, GNR 6w Brake Compo and (on Mondays and alternate Thursdays) a GNR 6w Third. In 1914 this was, for the passengers, something out of their parents' era. Any hardy traveller from London (as well as Peterborough, Grantham and Retford) would have had to transfer to the GNR 6-wheelers for York at Doncaster. If tpassengers intended to go on to Darlington, Newcastle Edinburgh or Glasgow then they would have to change train at York, from the GNR one to the NER one. On boarding the NER express there was the lure of the breakfast service in the dining carriages.
    Last edited by borderreiver; June 2nd, 2020 at 07:49 AM. Reason: more to say and formatting

  5. #20
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    Default 1914 E.C.J.S. Down Express Passenger Train Detailed breakdown - Further Information 2

    More information from the detailed information on the Summer 1914 East Coast Joint Company Through Carriage Working Instructions.
    this time it is an N.E.R. express but it explains how the dining carriages which ran with the 7:45 a.m. up service got to Edinburgh Waverley.

    ¹ indicates dual braked
    * indicates non-vestibule carriage

    Weekdays – Monday to Saturday
    9:57 a.m. York to Edinburgh.
    Eight carriage set on departure York. 176T 14Cwt.

    E.C.J.S. T.C.W.I. lists "28 wheel pairs" (7 carriages) but even discounting the MTFSO Leeds TK this leaves 9 carriages apparently leaving York.


    Leeds (dep 9:40 a.m.) to E'boro (arr 3:31 p.m.)
    NER BCK¹ Diag 174 26T 15Cwt 9 1st 18 3rd seats
    NER TK Diag 156 29T 10Cwt 42 3rd seats (7 compt x 6 pax when built 1909 - later 56 3rd seats 7 compt x 8 pax) MTFSO.

    Newcastle (dep 12:12 p.m.) to E'boro
    NER RC Diag 166 30T 15Cwt 10 1st 15 3rd seats ( A Diagram 166 weighed 40T and sat 13 of each class)
    NER BCK¹ Diag 174 26T 15Cwt 9 1st 18 3rd seats

    York to E'boro
    NER BT¹* Diag 18 23T 13Cwt 30 3rd seats
    NER C* Diag 5 27T 29 1st 24 3rd seats

    Sheffield (dep 8:40 a.m.) to E'boro
    NER BT¹* Diag 18 23T 13Cwt 30 3rd seats
    NER C* Diag 5 27T 29 1st 24 3rd seats
    NER T* Diag 14 25T 5Cwt 80 3rd seats
    NER T* Diag 14 25T 5Cwt 80 3rd seats
    NER BT¹* Diag 18 23T 13Cwt 30 3rd seats

    York to Keswick (arr 2:00 p.m.)
    NER BCL¹* Diag 27 26T 10Cwt 9 1st 18 3rd seats


    I used the following documents as sources for the following explanation:

    Bradshaw’s April 1910
    Bradshaw’s July 1922
    NERA publication on N.E.R. Timetable October 1912 to March 1913
    NERA publication on the LNER NE Area July 1926 Carriage roster
    NERA publications on N.E.R. Carriage drawings and E.C.J.S. Carriage Drawings.
    Various Isinglass Models Drawings.

    The Leeds portion BCK weighing 26 Tons 15 Cwt seating 9 1st and 18 3rd Class passengers is a conundrum. The Diagram 174 BCK built in 1909 & 1912 (more built in 1924 by the LNER) weighed 28 Tons 17 Cwt with dual brakes in the Isinglass drawing but sat 12 1st and 24 3rd Class passengers, though the NERA drawing is annotated as "actually 18 3rd". Nine is an uncommon figure for the 1st Class. Two compartments seating 2 a side would seat 8 while 3 a side would seat 12. The N.E.R. in 1898 built ten Diagram 27 non-corridor 52ft Lavatory Van Composites seating 9 1st and 18 3rd (later changed to 24 3rd), weighing 26T 6Cwt in its single braked version (which may have been 26T 15Cwt in dual braked form) but the T.C.W.I. lacks the * to indicate non-corridor stock.

    The Newcastle portion Brake Composite paired with the Dining Composite in the Newcastle to Edinburgh portion is described in the same way as the Leeds to Edinburgh carriage. It appears counter-productive to pair a non-corridor/non-vestibule carriage with a dining carriage but then the 9:57 am train from York was mostly comprised of non-vestibule carriages.

    My opinion is that the TCWI is a guide and that the key issues are that the carriage provided was dual braked, was a corridor/vestibule type and that the seating is a recommended minimum. If an NER dual braked Diagram 174 was supplied for each carriage then each provided 12 First and 24 Third Class seats and exceeded the T.C.W.I. minimum requirements.

    The Dining Composite (RC) also requires investigation. The N.E.R. Diagram 166 weighed 40 Tons and sat 13 of each class. 30 Tons seating 10 1st and 15 3rd is strange. I can’t find the N.E.R. having a carriage matching those specifications in 1914, even when considering carriages cascaded from the East Coast Joint Company. Six years prior to 1914 the N.E.R. built three Diagram 166 RC carriages, expressly for Newcastle to Liverpool and Newcastle to Edinburgh services so the East Coast T.C.W.I. seems to require a carriage the N.E.R. didn't have. Amendment - the N.E.R. did have a carriage to choose - the Diagram 105 - see later post

    The train is an example of portioned working, attaching and removing through carriages en-route. The train has four portions for Edinburgh, from Sheffield, Leeds, York and Newcastle, with a fifth portion travelling to Keswick from York, detaching at Darlington. The portion from Sheffield joined at York with the York to Edinburgh portion. The Leeds to Edinburgh portion travelled via the Leeds Northern. It stopped at Harrogate but not at Ripon or Northallerton. The York portion arrived Newcastle at 11:55 am with the Leeds portion arriving four minutes later at 11:59 am the York portion was six minutes ahead of the Leeds portion on departure Darlington but stopped at Durham, which the following Leeds portion omitted. The York, Leeds and Newcastle portions were combined for Edinburgh and departed at 12:12 pm. A busy thirteen minutes shunting.

    The timings were obviously leisurely. The 8:55 am from Leeds, travelling via York, arrived at Edinburgh two hours before this train, which departed only 45 minutes later.

    The portion from Sheffield, is largest one in the train. With the N.E.R. having relatively few vestibule/corridor carriages (only around 74 in 1922) it is perhaps unsurprising that the company rostered non-corridor/non-vestibule carriages for the portion, though the journey was similar in length to that between Newcastle and Liverpool, which had benefitted from corridor stock for around six years by 1914.

    The T.C.W.I. does not indicate which Sheffield station the portion originated. In 1914 both the Great Central and Midland Railways were different companies and still eight years away from the Big Four merger, which no-one could predict at the time. Examining the timetables and carriage rosters the portion would appear to originate at Sheffield Victoria. However, one has to dig for it since none of the timetables for York to Edinburgh lists a connection time for a train from Sheffield!

    Bradshaw’s 1910 & the NER 1912-13 timetables are “winter” timetables, operating for most of the year. Bradshaw’s 1922 & the NE Area 1926 roster are summer documents but 8 to 12 years and WWI later. The N.E.R. 1912-13 has the 9:57 a.m. York to Edinburgh and lists it in the table for Dining trains, so it was a year-round train, but no Sheffield portion is evident then. By 1922 there is no 9:57, but a 10:05 am which arrives Edinburgh 3:48 pm but lacks the “Restaurant Car Express” notation granted to the 9:38 am York to Glasgow. Again, no Sheffield portion for the 10:05 am is evident. The NE Area 1926 Roster has set No. 118, the “Glasgow to Sheffield (Vic) Portion” and is an “XBCCV” (52ft Corridor Brake Composite with dual brake). This however, is rostered to attach to the 9:38 am and appears to travel to York attached to set No. 293.

    I feel it worth it to divert a little to look at the 1926 Sheffield to Glasgow through carriage. The 1926 roster has 8:07 a.m. from Sheffield for set No. 293, 8:13 a.m. for set No. 118 and Bradshaw’s 1922 G.C.R. Manchester to Cleethorpes timetable lists a “Through train to York” at 8:15 a.m. (via Rotherham & Masboro arrives 8:25 departs 8:27) which arrives York at 9:21 a.m. The set No. 118 carriage then attaches to set No. 313 the “Leeds and Glasgow (corridor) set departing at 9:38 a.m. The 1926 Set No. 313 arrives back at York 9:44 p.m. with the “XBCCV” departing for Sheffield at 10:03 p.m. attached to set No. 431 for Bristol! Set 431 was made up of G.C.R. and G.W.R. carriages on alternate days. The “XBCCV” arrived Sheffield (Vic) at 11:35 p.m. Bradshaw’s 1922 G.C.R. Cleethorpes to Manchester timetable shows the train spending 15 minutes at Rotherham & Masboro (11:07 to 11:25 p.m.) I think that shunting was going on there. Set 431 departed York with vans from Glasgow to Westbury, Newcastle to Calne and Newcastle to Yeovil attached to its core two-carriage consist.

    I believe that the Sheffield portion in 1914 is possibly from Sheffield Victoria and potentially a summer service, hence it not appearing in the winter timetables. I also believe that, in my opinion, that by 1922, post WWI that the Sheffield portion for the 9:57’s successor, the 10:05 a.m. no longer ran. I think that it was superseded by a year-round through carriage attached to the 8:55 a.m. Leeds to Glasgow, which departed York at 9:38 a.m. The existence of the 1926 "XBCCV" confirms that the Corridor Brake Composite type was the "go to" carriage for the minimum provision of through carriage and anyone modelling the post-WWI Leeds to Glasgow train must acknowledge the likely presence of a former corridor N.E.R. BCK in the consist. I say N.E.R. because the ”XBCCV” in set No. 118 is not described as a “foreign” (other company or non-LNER NE Area) carriage.
    A final note. The 9:57 a.m. carriages returned to their homes in five different ways. The Leeds portion turned around quickly, heading south with the 5:45 p.m. from Edinburgh. The Newcastle portion returned south attached to the 7:45 a.m. from Edinburgh to London the following day, detached at Newcastle. The York portion returned south attached to the same evening’s 7:45 p.m. Edinburgh to London service but the portion is bound for Normanton. This is significant since the T.C.W.I. shows them attached to the 7:45 p.m. along with the N.E.R. T.P.O. which had travelled north from York attached to the head of the 10 a.m. from Kings Cross!! I am frustrated that Harris did not list this in his book or even mention it. I will edit the previous UP express detailed listings.

    The Sheffield portion “returned locally” to Newcastle and was attached to the following day’s 12:20 p.m. Newcastle to Sheffield. The York to Keswick through carriage also “returned locally”. I take “returned locally” to mean attached to the first convenient service heading that way and do not discount that they were run as empty stock.
    Last edited by borderreiver; June 2nd, 2020 at 08:17 AM. Reason: reformatting and more to say

  6. #21
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    Default

    Good heavens, I did not intend to open up another can of worms for you.
    You obviously have a computer in your noggin, as I myself am unable to co-relate all that data.
    Keep On Keeping On
    JackDownUnder

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    Default Editing and Extra Information

    Hello Jack

    Thanks. I have edited post #20 to make it clearer. I also need to go back to add the new information about the 7:45 p.m. Up consist.

    Posts 19 and 20 indicate what a mixture of carriages could be seen on services during the steam era. I have looked in Steve Banks and Clive Carter's book "LNER passenger Trains 1923-67 the Principal Services" and read the entry regarding the Sheffield to Glasgow through carriage. they report that "in the first years of the L.N.E.R. the NE Area provided an ex-N.E.R. BCK (2,3) and (on Saturdays) an ex-G.C.R. TK, Parker or matchboard." The carriage was meant to provide businessmen with a morning train because cross-country and other express trains from London inevitably meant mid-day or evening departures. Both had been replaced by equivalent Gresley carriages by the 1930s. So, at least the service seems to have operated up to WWII. They go on to clarify that the through carriage was attached to a "two-set of ex-N.E.R. non-corridor carriages, clerestory or elliptical roofed whose roster covered intermediate stations between Sheffield, York and Doncaster". They go on to report that the two-set was still in use with the train during the late 1930s, striking quite a contrast.

    For the return journey Banks and Carter rightly say how it got back to York, though identify the departure from York as the 10:15 p.m. for Swindon, virtually a parcels train, which means that their source is possibly not the 1926 NE Area Roster. They go on to say that the Swindon train did not travel via Sheffield, so the carriage was at the rear and detached at Rotherham, possibly with a light engine coming to collect them. Bradshaw's 1922 shows it as a through train from York but does not preclude the possibility of an engine attaching to the carriages detached at Rotherham (back to that 15 minute layover). Bradshaw's July 1938 York to Edinburgh table shows a connection from Sheffield Vic departing 8:05 a.m with a TC (through carriage Sheffield to Glasgow). The return gets to Sheffield at 11:57 p.m. The Manchester to Cleethorpes timetable shows the 8:05 a.m. departure, with Rotherham & Masboro at 8:27 a.m. and York at 9:20 a.m. Southbound the table shows the 10:13 departure from York with the Rotherham & Masboro departure at 11:43 p.m. and the 11:57 p.m arrival at Sheffield Victoria.

    I do not know when the through carriage stopped.

  8. #23
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    Default The 1914 T.C.W.I.

    Acquiring the 1914 East Coast Through Carriage workings provides a much more complete picture than the extract reproduced by Harris in his 1995 book "Great Northern Railway and East Coast Joint Stock Carriages from 1905". Another revelation is that Harris omitted the page which showed that the 8:45 p.m. Down train had a Saturday variation. There is some balancing to do on the stock roster spreadsheet with the discovery of extra timetabled trains entering the mix.

    There are changes to my assumptions and in particular the 7:45 p.m. Up departure from Edinburgh as well as the 12:00 Sunday Up train from Edinburgh are much more complex trains than I previoulsy thought. It is significant that the 1914 T.C.W.I. reveals the 7:45 p.m. did run on Saturday nights. It is also significant that the presence of N.E.R. carriages in the 12:00 Sunday Up departure because I now have six Down workings conveying an N.E.R. two-car Dining set (12:12 p.m. from Newcastle Monday to Saturday) but seven Up workings (the 7:45 a.m. from Edinburgh Monday to Saturday and the 12:00 from Edinburgh on Sunday). Add to that the presence of three N.E.R. corridor carriages in the 12:00 Up departure noted as working Down on the 1:30 p.m. from Normanton.

    I have been determining the details about that train from Normanton. There must have been a reason to start the train there, probably the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway connection from Liverpool Exchange (dep) and Manchester Victoria (dep 10:55) which arrived at 1:09 p.m.. A Midland connection existed from Sheffield (departure 9:05 a.m.) but arrived Normanton as early as 10:25 a.m.! A G.C.R. through train ran from Nottingham at 12:55 p.m. to York but arrived at 2:55 p.m. an hour too late to make what would have been a valuable connection. the L.N.W.R. missed a connection too, with the 10:45 a.m. from Liverpool Lime Street and 12:05 p.m. from Manchester Exchange not reaching Leeds (New) until 2:38 p.m. with York not reached until 3:22 p.m. Astonishingly, to catch Sunday's 2:04 p.m. from York a Leeds passenger had to leave Leeds (New) station at 9:00 a.m.. The G.N.R. missed by an even greater margin than the L.N.W.R., with the 11:40 a.m. Kings Cross Luncheon Car Express not reaching York until 3:55 p.m. Despite the long-standing degree of co-operation on the East Coast Main Line between the G.N.R. and N.E.R. it is surprising that in 1914 there was no effort made to provide a connection to Scotland.

    Bradshaws April 1910: - Sundays Table 722: Liverpool Exchange 9:06 a.m. Manchester Victoria 10:40 a.m. Normanton 1:30 p.m.York 2:04 p.m. Newcastle 4:03 p.m.
    NER 1912 - 1913: - Sundays Page 133: Liverpool Exchange 9:00 a.m. Manchester Victoria 10:55 a.m. Normanton 1:30 p.m.York 2:04 p.m. Newcastle 4:03 p.m.
    NER 1912 - 1913: - Sundays Page 45: York 2:30 p.m. Tea Car Express Newcastle to Edinburgh. Newcastle 4:03 - 4:10 p.m. Edinburgh 6:53 p.m.
    NER 1912 - 1913: - Sundays Page 101: Normanton 1:30 p.m. Monk Fryston picks up as required Hull to York passengers York 2:09 p.m. Newcastle 4;03 p.m.
    Bradshaw's 1922: - No service located
    LNER NEA 1926: - Sundays Page 93: Set No. 552 1:30 p.m. Normanton York 2:09 p.m. - Leeds and Scarborough five non-corridor carriage set with L&YR "VV" attached. No set working Normanton to Edinburgh shown.

    It is not clear whether the trains in Bradshaws 1910 or the NER 1912-13 work merely from Normanton or whether the set originates at Manchester or Liverpool.
    In any event, it appears that the NER 1912 - 1913 points to a likely candidate for the seventh Down working of an N.E.R. Dining set.
    Last edited by borderreiver; September 20th, 2019 at 08:40 PM. Reason: Spelling

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    Default The 1914 T.C.W.I. - An Identification

    A bump to the thread as a consequence of new research.

    In the 1914 T.C.W.I. the identity of the RC in the Newcastle to Edinburgh portion of the 9.57am York to Edinburgh was a puzzle.

    Newcastle (dep 12:12 p.m.) to Edinburgh (arr 3.31 pm)
    NER RC Diag 166 30T 15Cwt 10 1st 15 3rd seats ( A Diagram 166 weighed 40T and sat 13 of each class)
    NER BCK¹ Diag 174 26T 15Cwt 9 1st 18 3rd seats

    This RC was subsequently attached to the 7.45 am Up departure from Edinburgh the following day, detached at Newcastle.

    It turns out that in 1914 the N.E.R. did have a candidate for a 30T 15CWT Dining Composite seating 10 First and 15 Third, the Diagram 105, built in 1905. The N.E.R.A. drawing matches the weight precisely. Three were built in June 1905, Nos. 765, 1790 & 1855. They sat 10 First Class in two bays as 2+1, with a lavatory occupying one corner of the outboard saloon and 20 Thirds in three bays as 3+1 with a lavatory occupying the corner of the outboard saloon bay and one single seat omitted from the opposite corner by the door to the kitchen. If at first the carriage was also 2+1 for Third Class passengers then the capacity was 15 Thirds. While the Third Class seating at 2+1 would conform with E.C.J.S. practise at the time seating First Class passengers as 2+1 was not. E.C.J.S. First Class passengers were accustomed to 1+1 seating. I do not know how many complaints were received in 1905 from put out First Class passengers. The pantry was by the inboard First Class Saloon. The kitchen had an external door in one corner, a sliding door out to the corridor towards the opposite corner with an external door on the corridor not quite in line with it. Each lavatory had access by sliding door from the end vestibule. According to Carter, the external features were closely related to the clerestory roof carriages built for the N.E.R. for the preceding few years. They were lettered "DINING SALOON" and had 24 side windows. The N.E.R.A. drawing confirms the window and door arrangements. They carrie dlined Crimson Lake livery, which would have been very noticeable between teak livery E.C.J.S. carriages. it is a little disappointing that no photograph of them in service during 1905 has emerged. they would surely have been quite conspicuous.

    A little history of the diagram, courtesy of an article on catering Carriages built at York in the North Eastern Railway Asssociation's magazine "North Eastern Express" issue 93 from November 1983 by C.S. Carter. Unfortunately, in a typo carter assigns Diagram 106, though in fact they were Diagram 105. The N.E.R. had no passenger carriages with end corridor connections in 1905 (the five Diagram 93 Mail Vans had offset ones) so there were no N.E.R. services to exploit this facility. However, Carter reports that the 1905 timetable indicates a dining saloon working north of Newcastle. He also mentions 1910 but that is in the period when the N.E.R. had built carriages with corridor connections and could have been carriages built during 1908/1909. Given that I have no access to a 1905 timetable or working instructions I have to presume that the 7.45 am Up ECJS working was established then to give a dining facility as far as Newcastle. The working south of Newcastle is a mystery for the period June to December 1905 since G.N.& N.E.J.S. workings did not commence until the end of 1905. At some point in 1905 the G.N.R. and N.E.R. utilised E.C.J.S. carriages on Newcastle to London trains as the N.B.R. complained about it, prompting the G.N.R. and N.E.R. to respond to the perfectly justified protest from the N.B.R. by authorising construction of carriages for the service. It seems likely that the E.C.J.S. carriages on the 7.45 am Edinburgh were joined to "pirated" E.C.J.S. carriages at Newcastle to continue on to London. It will take further research to determine which ones they might have been. The N.E.R. had three Diagram 105s in 1905 so I consider it likely that the one attached to the 7.45 am from Edinburgh worked all the way south to London. How it returned north to Newcastle would need access to a summer 1905 timetable and working instructions.

    The N.E.R. sold No. 1855 to the N.B.R. in 1913, following that with selling No. 1790 to the N.B.R. in 1919. No. 765 was withdrawn from L.N.E.R. N.E. Area stock during the 1920s as No. 2765. Nos. 1790 and 1855 had rather longer lives. Initially No. 1855 was deployed to the N.B.R. Edinburgh - Aberdeen train as N.B.R. No. 161, with 1790 becoming N.B.R. No. 463. One of them was seen at Perth on Edinburgh to Perth services during the early 1920s. No. 463 was hired to the G.N.oS. from June 1922 for their Aberdeen to Inverness dining service. Post-grouping both 161 and 463 were allocated to the N. Scottish section as Nos. 7961 and 7962. They continued on this work through in to the 1930s. At least one was working between Glasgow and Fort William during the summer of 1948. They were withdrawn in 1952. Long lives for carriages which are so mysterious in their early lives.

    So, perhaps the 1905-1908 E.C.J.S. T.C.W.I. for the portion could have been as below;

    Newcastle (dep 12:12 p.m.) to Edinburgh (arr 3.31 pm)
    NER RC Diag 105 30T 15Cwt 10 1st 15 3rd seats
    E.C. BCK¹ Diag 47 35T 6Cwt 8 1st 12 3rd seats (An E.C.J.S. BCK could have been used between Newcastle and Edinburgh, though the G.N.R. could have complained on the same grounds as the N.B.R. did about London - Newcastle).

    In 1914 if the N.E.R. supplied a Diagram 105 it would have still complied with the E.C.J.S. T.C.W.I. though in fact it seems likely that the diagram 166 RC was attached from June 1908. However, if none of the three RCs was available a Diagram 105 would suit the TC.W.I. (if not the passengers).
    Last edited by borderreiver; June 2nd, 2020 at 10:46 AM.

  10. #25
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    I have the 1906 Bradshaw, which part is of interest. It is a very large file.
    JackDownUnder

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    Hello Jack

    In this case the N.E.R. tables for York - Newcastle - Edinburgh and N.B.R. tables for Edinburgh - Berwick and Edinburgh - Glasgow, though I can find a use for the entire roster of N.E.R. tables.

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    Quote Originally Posted by borderreiver View Post
    Hello Jack

    In this case the N.E.R. tables for York - Newcastle - Edinburgh and N.B.R. tables for Edinburgh - Berwick and Edinburgh - Glasgow, though I can find a use for the entire roster of N.E.R. tables.
    Quick tangent question. Was WW1 as tough on the railways as WW2 was? Or was it slightly different due to the nature of the war? No bombing or at least very small bombings.

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    Hello HotshotJimmy, the nature of WWI meant that the demands made on the railways were rather different than those of WWII.

    As you say, aerial bombing was not on the scale of WWII. According to Wikipedia, Airships made about 51 bombing raids on Britain during WWI. These killed 557 and injured another 1,358 people. More than 5,000 bombs were dropped on towns across Britain, causing £1.5 million in damage. 84 airships took part, of which 30 were either shot down or lost in accidents. Aeroplanes carried out 27 raids, dropping 246,774 lb (111,935 kg) of bombs for the loss of 62 aircraft, resulting in ground casualties of 835 dead, 1,972 injured along with £1,418,272 of material damage. if I recall correctly a London school was hit in one Zeppelin raid, killing both teachers and children. The raids were confined to SE England. The airships meant to target Humberside on one raid and Skinngingrove in N. Yorkshire in another but in both cases adverse weather meant that Norfolk was bombed instead. German warships shelled Hartlepool and other east coast ports in 1914. The N.E.R. provided a loco to haul a naval gun along coastal lines in N.E. England, though not being a large caliber and without rangefinder apparatus, I doubt that they would ever have hit, let alone damaged, a German Imperial Cruiser.

    Coastal coal traffic was greatly disrupted in WWI, as it was in WWII. This meant that the railways had to make up the tonnage normally sent by ship, placing quite a strain on resources. There was also a massive flow of coal north via the Highland Railway in Scotland due to the Home Fleet being based at Scapa Flow. I think that this was transhipped at both Wick and Inverness. The N.E.R. loaned locomotives to the H.R. which just did not have the number of locomotives required to haul the tonnage required. The long stretches of single line also strained the network to the limit. Naval leave trains added to the woes of the HR.

    Down south, with the war taking place in France there were considerable tonnages of material moved by the L.S.W.R. to Southampton and huge numbers of military personnel to/from Southampton, Folkestone and Dover. There were shortages of manpower, as there were in WWII. Women took up jobs at various levels. Painting economies were implemented from around 1917 and materials for new building as well as repairs were in short supply. From 1916, at the demands of the government, miles of track were lifted in order for it to be laid in France to support the B.E.F. I think that Pickering - Levisham was one such singling and it was never redoubled. By the end of WWI locomotives, rolling stock and infrastructure were all wearing out with large backlogs of repairs and maintenance. The government also welched on the deal it struck with the railway companies in 1914, that they would be compensated at a level commensurate to their traffic in 1913. The government never paid up, which had consequences for many years afterwards.

    Other post-war consequences; The grouping in 1923, a glut of War-surplus WD 2-8-0 locos, of which many were bought by the L.N.E.R. A glut of war-surplus motor trucks and omnibuses, kickstarting the road haulage and motor omnibus businesses during the 1920s. The coal export business out of East Coast ports never returned to pre-WWI levels, affecting docks and the lines to those docks.
    Last edited by borderreiver; June 3rd, 2020 at 06:51 PM.

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    Default 1906 Bradshaw's

    Though outside the specific scope of the 1914 E.C.J.S. T.C.W.I. I am referring to Bradshaw's for 1906, courtesy of JackDownUnder, to seek out clues for the potential uses of the D.105 RC.

    The Leeds New Station - Glasgow Queen Street express departed Leeds for York at 8.50 am during 1906. Stopping as required at Garforth for passengers beyond York, the city was reached at 9.25 am. The wait at York was 13 minutes, departing at 9.38 am. The next stop for the service was Newcastle, arriving at 11.0 am. The timetable remarks "Luncheon Car Express Newcastle to Glasgow" departing Newcastle 11.08 am. Arrival Edinburgh Waverley 1.30 pm and Glasgow 3.24 pm. The return working from Glasgow Queen Street left at 5.0pm and Edinburgh Waverley 6.25 pm remarked as "Dining Car Express Glasgow to Newcastle" with an arrival at Newcastle of 9.05 pm. A rather longer wait of 12 minutes at Newcastle in the Up direction, departing 9.17 pm. Darlington benefits from a stop in the Up direction that it did not enjoy in the Down direction, 10.01 - 10.06 pm and York reached at 10.55 pm. Away from York at 11.10 pm, there was no setting down at Garforth for passengers from beyond York and the train terminated at Leeds new Station at 11.45 pm. Presumably any passenger from Leeds who set off for business in Glasgow on the previous day's down service had some means to get home from Leeds new Station at 11.45 pm!

    The 9.57am Down train from York exists, stopping at Northallerton (10.37 am), Darlington (10.55 - 11.0 am), Durham (11.33 am) and Gateshead West 11.54 am, arriving Newcastle 11.57 am, where it terminates. The layout of Bradshaw's is such that column 21 is also occupied by the 9.46 am arrival at York, marked as a "Through train Manchester to York" departing Manchester Victoria at 7.15 am. It is not at all clear whether the 9.57 am from York includes the 7.15 am from Manchester Victoria or does not include it. Usually in shared columns there is a bold horizontal line between them. This train carries no notation to indicate the presence of any dining facilities.

    In 1906 there is a 12.50 pm Down departure from York for Newcastle noted as a "Luncheon Car Express" Also occupying column 32 is the 12.15 pm arrival from Manchester Vic via Normanton, once again marked as "Through train Manchester to York" departing Manchester 10.5 am and is probably the NE-L&YR joint service. The layover at York is 35 minutes, which is long but not unusual, especially if through portions are being shunted. The N.E.R. had no passenger carriages with corridor connections to pair with a D.105, if indeed it is a D.105 on this train and I have not researched whether the L&YR operated carriages with corridor conncections on the train in 1906. In any event, we know that placing a dining car alongside carriages lacking corridor connections was not unknown in 1914, so is possibly also taking place in 1906. Passengers wishing to dine would have to embark the RC at York and remain with it as far as the next stop at Northallerton, which means a hastily eaten meal (40 minutes). Darlington is a more likely point at which to vacate the car (59 minutes in which to eat from York), while a diner embarking the RC at Darlington has just 51 minutes in which to eat before the train reaches Newcastle. With arrival at Newcastle of 2.44 pm it provides 1 hour 54 minutes for service. If occupying the seats for the whole York to Newcastle leg did 10 1st Class and 15 3rd Class diners provide enough trade to justify the running of the carriage? I wonder if the dining car staff in 1906 were as eager as they are in modern times to curtail operations about 30 minutes short of the terminus in order that they could cash up and be cleaned up, ready to clock off shortly after arrival? With no through connections it becomes immaterial whether the RC attached at York is marshalled at the head of the train, the rear of the train or even marshalled within it, such as between portions.
    Last edited by borderreiver; June 3rd, 2020 at 06:01 PM.

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    Default 1906 bradshaw's

    The North British Railway Timetable for 1906 shows that the 7.50 am from Edinburgh carried a breakfast car 1st & 3rd Class, Edinburgh to Newcastle. I believe that in 1906 this duty was carried out by the N.E.R. D.105 RC. The phrase Breakfast Car 1st & 3rd Class has me thinking that it was a single carriage providing the facility. The journey time from Edinburgh to Newcastle is two hours and thirty-two minutes with a stop at Berwick at 9.06 am. This gives the possibility of two sittings, Edinburgh - Berwick and Berwick - Newcastle, though if the carriage was to be detached at Newcastle I imagine that the objective was to get the second sitting completed within forty-five minutes!

    It is worth noting at this point that the King Edward VII bridge at Newcastle did not come in to use for trains until October 1st 1906, despite King Edward VII and Queen Alexandra officially opening the bridge on July 6th 1906. Therefore at the time of this February 1906 timetable all aAnglo-Scottish trains on the E.C.M.L. ran via the 1849 Stephenson High Level Bridge with a reversal at Newcastle Central. The engine change was not the issue, since that continued for decades after 1906. It was the capacity of the High Level Bridge and the congestion at the eastern end of the station which were the issues. Eight hundred train and light engine movements were required across the High Level bridge daily by 1900, far in excess of what Robert Stephenson envisaged in the 1840s.

    I will continue to search for how an N.E.R. D.105 53ft6in RC made its way north to Edinburgh to be present for the Up departure at 7.50 am the following day.

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