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Thread: 1914 UK East Coast Joint Stock Carriage Roster

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    Default 1914 UK East Coast Joint Stock Carriage Roster

    Following an enquiry about the make-up of the UK's East Coast Joint Stock Expresses, I have decided to post a thread showing the allocations for Summer 1914 (June - September) derived from work published by Michael Harris and Ken Hoole.

    This first post will deal with the overall view of the Down trains. Further posts will address the overall view of the Up trains. with detailed allocations of both down and up trains afterwards

    The East Coast Joint Stock Company ownership was shared between the Great Northern, North Eastern and North British Railways, proportions being related to mileage, which made the G.N.R. the "senior" partner. The E.C.J.S.C. supplied the carriages required to operate the express passenger services along the East Coast Main Line between London Kings Cross, Edinburgh Waverley, Glasgow Queen Street, Perth and Aberdeen.

    Down Trains

    The summer of 1914 saw five daytime express passenger trains between London and Edinburgh. On weekdays (Monday to Friday) There were four overnight express passenger trains.

    9:50 a.m. London - Edinburgh.

    Eight carriages departing London. 257 T 14 Cwt.
    This train was the relief for the 10:00 a.m.
    This train ran to Edinburgh July - September.
    During May London - Newcastle on Mondays and Fridays only.
    During June london - Newcastle on weekdays (Mondays to Fridays).

    10:00 a.m. London - Edinburgh, Glasgow, Perth and Aberdeen.

    Ten carriage set departing London. 303 T 17 Cwt
    G.N.R. nickname "The Scotch Express" - known officially as "The Flying Scotsman" from the L.N.E.R. era.
    A feature of the 10 a.m. was having the N.E.R. TPO coach at the head of the down train between York and Edinburgh (re-positioning for its next up duty).

    10:35 a.m. London - Edinburgh and Glasgow.

    Ten carriage set departing London. 295 T 14 Cwt
    With G.N.R. corridor carriage portions from London - Cromer, (detached at Peterborough) and ( Saturdays Only) Grantham – Doncaster.
    With Midland Railway portion (attached at York) Bristol – Newcastle (Non-vestibule carriages)
    With N.E.R. portion from Newcastle - Alnmouth (non-vestibule carriages).

    11:20 a.m. London - Edinburgh, North Berwick, Perth and Montrose.

    Nine carriage set departing London. 287 T 8 Cwt
    A through Corridor Brake Composite to North Berwick detached at Drem to continue on with the N.B.R. branch train.
    With a N.E.R. through Brake Composite carriage (attached at Darlington) from Keswick to Newcastle. Non-vestibule carriage.

    2:20 p.m. London - Edinburgh. Monday to Friday.

    Nine carriage set departing London. 274 T 13 Cwt
    Unofficial G.N.R. nickname "The Afternoon Scotch Express".
    With a 6-w non-vestibule Brake Van running outside the E.C.J.S. Corridor Bogie Brake as far as Newcastle.
    The 6-w van detached and then on from Newcastle to Edinburgh with the 11:45 p.m. ex-London.

    2:20 p.m. London - Edinburgh. Saturdays Only.

    Eleven carriage set departing London. No weight shown. I calculate 364 T 9 Cwt.
    With a Brake Third for Edinburgh added to the weekday set at the head of the train.
    With a Corridor Composite for Edinburgh added to the weekday set as the fourth carriage in the train.
    With a south-end brake, G.N.R. Corridor Brake Composite running outside the E.C.J.S. Corridor Bogie Brake rather than the weekday's 6-w Brake Van.
    The G.N.R. carriage running as far as Newcastle, returning south from there with the Saturday 11:29 p.m. departure for London.

    7:55 p.m. London - Inverness and Fort William. Saturdays & Sundays excepted.

    Nine carriage set departing London. 246 T 9 Cwt
    Included a sleeping car for Inverness and a sleeping composite to Fort William.
    The Inverness sleeping car would go forward to Strathpeffer as required.

    8:15 p.m. London - Edinburgh, Montrose and Aberdeen. Saturdays & Sundays Excepted.

    Eight carriage set departing London. 235 T 16 Cwt
    With an E.C.J.S south-end Brake Third at the head of the train from Newcastle to Glasgow Queen Street. (This left London at 4:30 p.m. behind a G.N.R. passenger train).
    Despite being an overnight train only one carriage (for Aberdeen) was a sleeping car.

    8:45 p.m. London - Edinburgh Waverley and Glasgow Queen Street. Saturdays Excepted.

    Eleven carriage set departing London. 274 T 5 Cwt
    With one G.N.R. non-vestibule 6-wheel brake van for Hull, detached at Doncaster.
    With one G.N.R. non-vestibule 4-wheel G.P.O. mail van for Leeds, detached at Doncaster.
    With two G.N.R. 6-wheel G.P.O. mail vans with vestibule connections for Newcastle.
    With a G.N. & N.E.J.S. Brake van running as far as Newcastle.
    With a N.E.R. G.P.O. bogie van running between Newcastle and Edinburgh early a.m. Tuesday to Saturday.
    Like the 8:18 p.m. despite being an overnight train only one carriage (for Glasgow) was a sleeping car, this time a sleeping composite.

    8:45 p.m. London - Edinburgh and Glasgow. Sundays Only.

    Eleven carriage departing London. Weight not shown. I calculate it as 303 T 8 Cwt
    With one G.N.R. non-vestibule 4-wheel G.P.O. mail van for Leeds, detached at Doncaster.
    With two G.N.R. vestibule 6-wheel G.P.O. mail vans for Newcastle.
    With G.N. & N.E.J.S. Pantry Third and Kitchen First running empty stock as far as Newcastle.
    With a N.E.R. G.P.O. bogie van running between Newcastle and Edinburgh early a.m. Monday.

    11:30 p.m. London - Aberdeen and Perth. Saturdays Only.

    Eight carriage set departing London. 244 T 7 Cwt.
    One sleeping car for Aberdeen and one for Perth.

    11:45 p.m. London - Newcastle, North Berwick, Edinburgh and Glasgow. Monday to Friday.

    Nine carriage set departing London. 282 T 12 Cwt.
    With a 6-wheel E.C.J.S non-vestibule Brake Van between Newcastle and Edinburgh which left London at 2:20 p.m ( Not Monday a.m. – which is the Sunday departure ex-London).
    With one E.C.J.S Sleeping car, Corridor Brake Composite and Corridor brake Third for Glasgow.
    With a G.N. & N.E.J.S portion for Newcastle (one G.N. & N.E.J.S. Sleeping car, G.N. & N.E.J.S. Corridor Third & G.N.R. bogie Corridor Brake Van).
    With a E.C.J.S. Sleeping car and E.C.J.S. Corridor brake Composite for North Berwick.

    11:45 p.m. London - Newcastle, North Berwick, Edinburgh and Glasgow. Saturdays Only.

    Eight carriage set departing London. 227 T 17 Cwt.
    Includes three Corridor Brake vans (BG) and a Corridor Brake Composite (BTK) departing London.
    One brake van was a G.N. & N.E.J.S. carriage running to Newcastle, one a G.N.R. carriage running to Newcastle and the third a G.N.R. carriage running to York.
    Like the 8:18 and 8:45 p.m. trains, only one carriage (for Glasgow) was a sleeping car.

    The table in Harris shows that between Newcastle and Edinburgh the Saturday 11:45 p.m. includes a 6-w E.C.J.S. Brake Van to EC Diag 37 van. However, the table lists no Diag 37 as attached to Saturday’s 2:20 p.m. ex-London, so this van could not have run in the 2:20 p.m. in order to meet the Saturday 11:45 p.m.

    It is unclear as to whether it is a mistake from 1914, if the table means that on Sat at 5:00 a.m. there is a Diag 37 6-w van waiting at Newcastle ex-Friday’s 2:20 p.m. from London, or it is a different Diag 37 van. No information as to how that van would have reached Newcastle from London. However, twenty 6-w Diag 37 vans were built during 1883 with eight more built in 1893, so in July 1914 Newcastle may have at least one such van to hand in the sidings.
    EC Diag 37 No. 49 was destroyed in an accident at Montrose during December 1915.

    The data for condemnation/cascading of EC Diag 37 vans is incomplete, so it is unclear how many were on stock during July 1914. The lowest number of the class was “49” during July 1914 so Nos. 46A, 47A, and 48A were not in E.C. stock at that point. Disposals had started before 1914, with five condemned between 1911 & 13 (Nos. 52A, 54A, 100A, 101A & 106) whilst one was cascaded to the G.N.R. during 1913 (No.85A). Of the eight built by Cravens during 1893, one (No. 214) was condemned during 1919 while the remaining seven were cascaded between 1919 and 1922, with five to the G.N.R. (Nos. 215 – 219) and two to the N.E.R. (Nos. 220-221). Therefore at least nine of the twenty-eight were in E.C. stock during the summer of 1914 (Nos. 49 & 214-221).

    11:45 p.m. London - Newcastle, North Berwick, Edinburgh and Glasgow. Sundays Only.

    Nine carriage set on departure London. 282 T 12 Cwt.
    With one E.C.J.S Sleeping car, a Corridor Brake Composite and Corridor Brake Third for Glasgow.
    With a G.N. & N.E.J.S portion for Newcastle (one G.N. & N.E.J.S. Sleeping car, G.N. & N.E.J.S. Corridor Third & G.N.R. bogie Corridor Brake Van).
    With a E.C.J.S. Sleeping car and E.C.J.S. Corridor Brake Composite for North Berwick.

    - A late subtraction, I verified that the 6-w E.C.J.S. Brake van was not attached at Newcastle during the early hours of Monday morning to the 23:45 p.m. Sunday train from London to Edinburgh and Glasgow. My error to show it in the original posting.

    - A late addition P.S. Ken Hoole reported that (in a T.C.W.I. which he did not date) the Down 8:55 a.m. Leeds to Glasgow Breakfast & Luncheon Express, via York, rostered for nine N.E.R. corridor carriages, also conveyed an E.C.J.S Brake Van between York and Edinburgh. This brake originated at London, departing there at 5:05 a.m. with the G.N.R. semi-fast bound for York. The 5:05 a.m. is listed in the April 1910 Bradshaw's, arrive York 9:18 a.m. The April 1910 Bradshaw's has the Glasgow leaving Leeds at 9:00 a.m. and departing York at 9:43 a.m. The 1922 Bradshaw's has the Glasgow train leaving Leeds at 8:55 a.m. but the train from London is the 4:45 a.m.
    Last edited by borderreiver; August 20th, 2019 at 09:33 AM.

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    Top research, thanks.

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    As always great work. As seen in my PM today I have my first up and down 9:50 am and return next day at 10:00 am consists working.
    I am running them from and to portals at York and just before Northallerton.
    I still have a lot of work to do to add those stations to my North Yorkshire Route.
    Looking forward to the remaining notes.
    By the way I retain all your note in my Excel spreadsheet.
    JackDownUnder

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    Thanks for the kind words.
    I am working on the Up train overview. Harris only listed one Up train, the 7:45 a.m. from Edinburgh, because it was unusual in combining with an N.E.R. dining portion as far as Newcastle and then combining with a G.N. & N.E.J.S. service from Newcastle to London. Harris noted that to save space the return (Up) working of the carriages on the down services were shown in the through carriage working arrangement tables.

    However, that appears to be not the whole picture. There seem to be rather more E.C.J.S services in the Up direction than the down direction and at least one of them, in my opinion so far, is an empty stock working taking the carriages south. That service is not all stations but it appears to have stopped at several smaller wayside stations between Edinburgh and Newcastle with a 48 minute layover at Newcastle. With only three through platform faces at Newcastle Central I think that it is more likely the E.C.J.S. empty stock was detached from the Edinburgh - Newcastle passenger train and subsequently attached to the later Newcastle - York train. Some care would have been necessary at Newcastle by the N.E.R. to avoid reversing the facing of the E.C.J.S. set, since that would then require the G.N.R. to turn each one and remarshal them at London. That makes me think that either a through platform was assigned to the arriving Edinburgh and departing York trains, with the York departure via the King Edward Bridge, or the Edinburgh train arrived in an eastern end bay platform and the E.C.J.S. carriages were taken directly to a western end bay for the York departure. An arrival at an eastern end bay and a departure from the same bay via the High Level Bridge and Gateshead West would reverse the facing of the whole E.C.J.S. set.

    While it is probable that the E.C.J.S. carriages were locked out of use for that working south, if they were not ,then passengers from wayside stations such as Prestonpans, Reston, Belford and Chathill must have had a pleasant surprise. The normal service trains calling at those stations were ordinary compartment stock lacking corridor connections and most also lacked toilet facilities.

    I am working on a spreadsheet listing the week's workings of carriages to the north by carriage diagram day/time and seeing how they balance out going south.

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    Up Trains


    The up trains were, in large part, rather more complex in make-up than the down trains. Most have to be deduced from the down service tables which show the balancing workings for carriages. To save space and publishing costs, Harris only listed the through carriage working instructions for the 7:45 a.m. service. This was due to the “hybrid” nature of the 7:45 a.m. (combining E.C.J.S. carriages with N.E.R. carriages and G.N. & N.E.J.S. carriages to run through to London).


    To supplement Michael Harris ( G.N.R. & E.C.J.S. Carriages from 1905 – Oakwood Press 1995 ) and Ken Hoole ( The Illustrated History of East Coast Joint Stock - OPC 1993 ) . I have referenced my David & Charles 1969 reprinted copy of Bradshaw’s July – September 1922 timetable and thanks to JackDownUnder for pointing me to an online version of Bradshaw’s April 1910 timetable held by the hathitrust archive. The North East Railway Association (N.E.R.A.) 2002 facsimile publication “North Eastern Railway Timetable 1st October 1912 to 31st March 1913” and 2014 facsimile publication “L.N.E.R. N.E. Area Carriage Roster from 19th July 1926 Until Further Notice” have also proved useful for providing some information.

    I have had to make some judgement calls when assessing the information in the above publications because they do not only refer to different years but also in some cases to different seasons. The summer period, from July to September was the peak period for long distance travel, in part attributable to the “Glorious Twelfth” when many “in society” travelled to Scotland to take part in the grouse shooting season. Spending all or part of the summer in Scotland had been made fashionable by Queen Victoria during the mid-19th century and with her grandson King George V on the throne in July 1914 this “tradition” had not yet significantly waned, though the start of World War One during August 1914 would change things.

    The winter timetable inevitably had fewer trains. For example, Harris reports that prior to 1913 that the 11:45 p.m. from London did not operate at all during January to March, with its vehicles running in the 11:30 p.m. being duplicated as required. This raises a question, because in the 1914 Through Carriage Working Instructions reproduced in Harris, the 11:30 p.m. was a train which ran only on Saturdays. So, prior to 1913 was the 11:30 p.m. similarly restricted to Saturdays Only or was the 11:30 actually the year-round train and the 11:45 p.m. the one which only ran on summer Saturdays? The April 1910 Bradshaw’s shows a departure at 11:30 p.m. Saturdays excepted and on Sundays. The winter 1912/13 N.E.R.A. timetable shows “through coaches” from York to Edinburgh departing at 3:19 a.m. and the 1910 Bradshaw’s shows the 11:30 p.m. out of London reaching York at 3:12 a.m. The July 1922 Bradshaw’s shows no E.C.J.S. sleeping car train departing London after 10:30 p.m. so there is nothing to compare with there. Therefore, I tend towards the opinion that prior to 1913 it is likely the 11:45 p.m. was the summer Saturdays extra and that by summer 1914 the situation had switched, with the 11:45 p.m. the year-round train while the 11:30 p.m. was the summertime Saturdays Only departure. That during WWI the economy measures resulted in the post-WWI sleeping car trains leaving London around an hour earlier than pre-WWI. The above is to illustrate the assessment and judgement I have had to make. Any errors or omissions are inevitably mine.

    Harris also reports that during the winter 1914/1915 timetable (October – March) that the Inverness and Fort William sleeping cars did not run throughout the year. The West Coast Joint Stock and East Coast Joint Stock companies collaborated over the winter to run through carriages and sleeping cars on alternate days from Kings Cross and Euston respectively. In my opinion this was not just an adjustment for winter but a wartime economy measure.

    During the summer of 1914 the T.C.W.I. lists seven weekday daytime express passenger train departures from Edinburgh, compared to five down departures from London. An eighth Up departure is listed, at 6:25 p.m. but this is an N.E.R. service between Glasgow and Leeds (via York) and the E.C.J.S. carriages in this departure were NPCS brake van, probably only going as far as York with this train (arriving York 10:55 p.m.) and then going south to London with a subsequent Up G.N.R. passenger train from York. I think that the 6:38 a.m. slow passenger train from York, arriving London at 11:50 a.m. is a possible candidate since the G.N.R. practise was to add N.P.C.S. carriages such as luggage/brake vans conveying mail and parcels traffic at either (or both) ends of their secondary express and ordinary passenger trains on the E.C.M.L. In some trains there were more brake vans in the consist than there were passenger carriages!

    The 1914 T.C.W.I. reproduced in Harris lists five overnight weekday departures in the Up direction south from Edinburgh. Once again, more than in the Down direction northwards from London.

    The sheer size of this section means that I will have to post it in two parts, with the overview of the trains themselves in the next post.

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    I applaud the investigation that you are performing. This will go down in the annals, if we or our future kin survive the world's current & future problems.
    For the purpose of constructing a realistic model in TRS2019 one realises that:
    - model generally is constructed to run for one day, yes one can include weekend workings & specials where they do not overload the scheduling. I did have mine running 20 hrs at one time until my PC crashed.
    - in consideration of this one can discount the historical change considerations.
    - for someone such as I, this means that I do not have to overload the little grey cells which at 80 years old do not appear to be able to calculate the options as easily as they used to do.
    I am compiling an excel spreadsheet incorporating the known schedule from pre WW1 to allow scheduling without further reference to the time tables of that period.
    I am also compiling one to cross reference the Carriage Roster Codes to available rolling stock provided by TRS2019, Paul's & others. So once and for all the selections will be made & the little grey cells may be rested.

    Unfortunately this is not all that there is to consider as the railway companies generally made more money out of mineral traffic than passenger, especially NER. So there are a lot of movement of mineral and other traffic to be slotted in between the passenger services. this is another historical investigation that needs to be made!! I do not think that I will be going there until my passenger traffic is running smoothly. I do have a fictitious coal mine with five pick up services delivering to stations surrounding Starbeck/ Harrogate which include local shunting at those stations.

    Keep up the good work Borderreiver.
    JackDownUnder

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    Default The Up E.C.J.S. Daytime Express Passenger Train Overview

    The Up Train Overview - The daytime express passenger trains

    Weekdays - Monday to Saturday

    7:45 a.m. Edinburgh - London.

    Six carriages on departure Edinburgh. 173 T 16 Cwt

    With an N.E.R. portion for Newcastle made up of a BCK & RC.
    At Newcastle they were detached and the E.C.J.S. carriages attached to the 10:28 a.m. G.N. & N.E.J.S. service to London, which included a RF & RTP.
    The 7:45 a.m. had dining facilities for its entire journey.
    The main E.C.J.S. core returned in the Down direction at 10:30 p.m. the same day.
    One E.C.J.S. coach, returned in the Down direction on the next day's 10:35 a.m. from London.
    With an N.E.R. portion for Newcastle made up of a Corridor Brake Composite and a Corridor Composite Dining Car.

    The T.C.W.I. states that the balancing down working for the core portion is the same day’s 10:30 p.m. from London, running six days a week. In the April 1910 Bradshaw’s this was not an advertised overnight E.C.J.S. departure. The G.N.R and N.E.R.
    possibly working the carriages as empty stock attached to their slower overnight passenger trains carrying mails. Officially, the carriages reached Edinburgh at 8:58 a.m. (via the 6:00 a.m. ex-Newcastle
    for its last leg). In reality there was no hurry. The carriages were not required until 7:45 a.m. the day following arrival at Edinburgh.

    10:00 a.m. Edinburgh – London.

    Eight carriage set on departure Edinburgh. 257 T 14 Cwt
    This up service was a relief to the 10:15 a.m. and ran from July to September.
    During May it ran from Newcastle to London on Monday and Friday only.
    During June it ran from Newcastle to London on weekdays (Monday to Friday).
    All carriages ran down on the previous day’s 9:50 a.m. from London.

    10:15 a.m. Edinburgh – London.

    Ten carriage set on departure Edinburgh. 303 T 17 Cwt
    This train was the Up “Scotch Express” with all carriages running down on the previous day’s 10:00 a.m. from London.
    Included a portion ex-Glasgow (departed 8:40 a.m.) for London.
    Included a core portion from Edinburgh for London.
    Included a through coach ex-Perth (departed 8:35 a.m.) for London.
    Included a portion ex-Aberdeen (departed 6:15 a.m.) for London.

    10:25 a.m. Edinburgh – London.

    Four carriage set on departure Edinburgh. Weight not shown. I calculate it as 121 T 1 Cwt
    Included one E.C.J.S. Brake Van which had run down from London on the previous day’s 10:35 a.m.
    Included an E.C.J.S. portion from Edinburgh to London.
    This portion had run down on the previous day’s 8:45 p.m. from London.

    No dining carriages are recorded as being allocated to this train and in the 1922 Bradshaw’s lacks any Luncheon/Dinner train remarks/notes.
    The April 1910 Bradshaw shows a 10:20 which ran through to London arriving 8:35 p.m.
    This was a long journey without dining facilities. However, the N.E.R. Winter 1912-13 timetable has a table of Breakfast, Luncheon and Dining car services showing that the traveller without their own food and drink may still have had access to hot and cold food on the 10:25 a.m., or at least could do so between Newcastle and York.
    The N.E.R. advertised that Luncheon baskets could be obtained at York, Darlington, Newcastle, Leeds, Harrogate, Scarborough or Hull stations with hot or cold luncheon at 3 shillings (3/-) and without wine, ale, stout or aerated water at 2 shillings and 6 pence (2/6). Telegrams ordering luncheon baskets, meals etc were sent free of charge on notice being given to the Conductor or Guard of the Train, or to the Station Master, or other Official, at any of the principal Stations en route. The G.N.R. and N.B.R. may have offered something similar. If the N.B.R. would telegraph the N.E.R. at Newcastle the traveller might have their food delivered onboard there.

    12:25 p.m. Edinburgh – London.

    Six carriage set on departure Edinburgh. Weight not shown. I calculate it to be 181 T 9 Cwt
    Included a portion ex-Glasgow (departed 11:00 a.m.) for London.
    This ran down as part of the previous day’s 10:35 a.m. from London.
    Included a core portion from Edinburgh for London.
    This ran down to Edinburgh on the previous day’s 11:20 a.m. from London.
    A further coach joined at Drem, the through E.C.J.S. coach from North Berwick (departing there 12:30 p.m.).
    This ran down on the previous day’s 11:20 a.m. from London.

    2:00 p.m. Edinburgh – London.
    Seven carriage set on departure Edinburgh. Weight not shown. I calculate it to be 238 T 4 Cwt
    This was the scheduled relief train for the 2:30 p.m.
    Included a portion from Edinburgh for London.
    This ran down to Edinburgh on the previous day’s 2:20 p.m. from London.
    Included a Brake van from Edinburgh to London.
    This ran down to Edinburgh on the previous day’s 8:15 p.m. from London.
    However, while the 2:00 p.m. Up train operated six days a week (Mon – Sat), the 8:15 p.m. Down operated only five nights a week (Mon – Fri).
    This leaves a deficit of one Brake Van heading north to be made good in the roster.

    2:30 p.m. Edinburgh – London.

    Eight carriage set on departure Edinburgh. Weight not shown. I calculate it to be 274 T 15 Cwt
    This was the “Afternoon Scotch Express”.
    Included a portion from Edinburgh for London.
    Ran down as part of the previous day’s 10:35 a.m. from London.
    Included a portion from Perth (departed 12:30 pm.) for London.
    One carriage of this portion ran down as part of the previous day’s 10:35 a.m. as far as Edinburgh.
    It subsequently worked from Edinburgh to Perth at 7:30 a.m. positioning for the Up return working from Perth to London.
    The other carriage of this portion ran down on the previous day’s 11:20 a.m. from London.
    Included a portion from Aberdeen (departed 10:30 a.m.) for London.
    This ran down to Montrose on the previous day’s 11:20 a.m. from London, later empty stock to Aberdeen.
    Included a portion from Glasgow (departed 1:00 p.m.) for London.
    This ran down as part of the previous day’s 8:45 p.m. from London to Glasgow.

    6:25 p.m. Edinburgh – Leeds (via York).

    This was not an E.C.J.S. express passenger train.
    It was the nine carriage N.E.R. express passenger service from Glasgow to Leeds via York, which conveyed two, perhaps three E.C.J.S. Brake vans bound for London as far as York.
    The G.N.R. would take the vans onwards from York, attached to a passenger train.
    Included an E.C.J.S. 6-w Van from Edinburgh for London.
    This had travelled down as far as Newcastle on the previous day’s 2:20 p.m. from London (Van did not run Saturday) and subsequently on to Edinburgh attached to the previous day’s 11:45 p.m. from London (Not Sunday night/Monday morning).
    Included an E.C.J.S. Brake van from Glasgow (departed 5:00 p.m.) for London.
    This had travelled down on the previous day’s 8:15 p.m. from London.
    A third van was probably attached at Edinburgh. This had also travelled down on the 8:15 p.m. but the T.C.W.I. states it returned to London via the 5 p.m. from Edinburgh but there was no 5 p.m. train. I believe that it was attached to the 5 p.m. from Glasgow, which departed Edinburgh at 6:25 p.m.
    This train was later named “The North Briton” during BR days.

    As previously mentioned, there is a contradiction in the Down trains regarding the van attached to the 11:45 p.m. between Newcastle and Edinburgh. On Monday to Friday the van which would return from Edinburgh to London on the subsequent 6:25 p.m. ran in the 2:20 p.m. down departure for Edinburgh as far as Newcastle. It did not run on Saturdays. However, a same class of van was shown in the 1914 T.C.W.I. as being attached at Newcastle for Edinburgh to the Saturday night but not the Sunday night 23:45 p.m. departure from London. This is explained by a “Not Mondays” note for the Sunday night train.
    The van attached during the early hours of Sunday to the 23:45 p.m. from London on Saturday night is shown as working back in the Up direction to London on the 6:25 p.m. from Edinburgh, which must have been the 6:25 p.m. on Monday, since the train did not run on Sundays.

    Sundays

    12:00 p.m. Edinburgh – London.
    Three carriage set on departure Edinburgh. Weight not shown. From the explicitly mentioned carriages in the 1914 T.C.W.I. I calculate it to be 96 T 19 Cwt.
    Included a. portion from Edinburgh for London.
    This had run down on the previous day’s Saturdays Only 2:20 p.m. from London.
    Included a Corridor Brake Third from Edinburgh to London.
    This had run down on the previous night’s Saturdays Only variation of the 11:45 p.m. from London.
    There is no Sunday E.C.J.S. daytime down train shown in the T.C.W.I. reproduced by Harris, so there is no Sunday inbound stock to provide carriages for a balancing Sunday working back from London, hence the use of stock from other Down trains.
    No dining cars appear to be rostered for this train and April 1910 Bradshaw's has no notation advertising dining facilities.
    I will return to Sunday daytime express passenger workings later.


    The overview of the overnight express passenger trains to follow.
    Last edited by borderreiver; August 21st, 2019 at 06:05 AM. Reason: Change to consist of 2:30 p.m. and reformatting

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    Default

    I thought I had made a breakthrough with co-relating NER rolling stock to the Carriage roster.
    However, I am stuck.
    I am unable to relate the Carriage Design numbers to the descriptions in the NER Carriage Roster and the Code Signals.
    Would it help if I purchased the NERA publication, NER Passenger Vehicles 1909 Volumes 1-5.
    JackDownUnder

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    Default

    Hello Jack

    The documents make one work, that is for sure. The E.C.J.S. Through Carriage Working Instructions deal with "class numbers", which requires Hoole to decipher, while the L.N.E.R. N.E. Area Carriage Roster for 1926 utilise telegraphic codes. An example is the roster requiring an "EC XVV", which is a East Coast 52ft Vacuum ATB fitted Van - in other words, what we would think of now as a corridor bogie brake van (BG) - Except there were NO 52ft East Coast BGs, There were 46ft 6in and 56ft 6in ones prior to 1923 and some 61ft 6in ones after 1923 (L.N.E.R. Gresley BGs in the East Coast main Line allocation in 1926 were also EC XVV). However, ANY EC 56'6"/61'6" with dual westinghouse/vacuum auto train brake fitment would suffice, which gives you around six different diagrams of E.C.J.S. carriage to choose from. A photo is worth a thousand words with this regard but of course many trains went unrecorded.

    As for purchasing the N.E.R.A. Carriage drawings, they are useful and will at least give you an idea of what each carriage looked like. It is expensive to get them to Oz though, They will weigh between half a kilo and a kilo. If you have a pressing need I can refer to my copies for you.

    Regards
    Frank
    Last edited by borderreiver; August 12th, 2019 at 04:51 AM.

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    Default The Up E.C.J.S. Overnight Express Passenger Train Overview

    The Up Train Overnight overview

    The Up overnight trains included sleeping cars. Portioned working was the norm. Several carriages working south overnight had worked north attached to daytime trains Others were hauled north overnight as empty stock.
    This post deals with the Weekday overnight workings.


    Weekdays – Monday to Saturdays.

    Weekday nights Monday to Friday saw four departures from Edinburgh for London, dropping to one, at 10:55 p.m. on Saturday nights.
    7:45 p.m. Edinburgh – London. Not Saturdays.

    Six carriage set departing Edinburgh. I calculate the weight as 179 T 2 Cwt

    All from Edinburgh.
    Included the N.E.R. T.P.O. from Edinburgh to York, possibly one of the three 52ft 1910 built NE Diagram 183 carriages.
    Several carriages worked down from London on the previous day’s 2:20 p.m.
    The Sleeping Car worked down to Glasgow on the previous day’s 8:45 p.m. from London, working back empty from Glasgow to Edinburgh during the day.
    A Brake Van worked down earlier the same day, starting from London at 4:45 a.m. attached to a G.N.R. train, switched to the 9:38 a.m. N.E.R. express passenger train for Glasgow at York, which departed Leeds at 9:00 a.m.
    A Brake Third worked down to Edinburgh on the previous day’s 11:45 p.m. from London.


    10:35 p.m. Edinburgh – London. Not Saturdays.

    Mondays Only - Seven carriage set on departure Edinburgh. I calculate the weight to be 220 T 1 Cwt
    Tuesdays to Fridays - Five carriage set on departure Edinburgh. I calculate the weight to be 159 T 15 Cwt


    Portions from Perth and Edinburgh.
    Perth portion, departed Perth at 7:55 p.m.
    On Mondays Only the Perth portion was double sized, amalgamating two down portions. One had worked down on the previous Saturday Only 11:30 p.m. from London while the other worked to Inverness as a portion on Friday’s 7:55 p.m. from London, working back to Perth as empty stock on Saturday. It is this latter working which formed the regular Perth portion, Tuesday through Friday.

    Edinburgh portion.
    One carriage had worked down on that morning’s 11:20 a.m. while two others had worked down to North Berwick on the previous day’s 11:45 p.m. (Sundays to Fridays) from London as far as Newcastle, attached to the 5:50 a.m. N.E.R. passenger train for Edinburgh as far as Drem, then to North Berwick, arriving 9:08 a.m. Subsequently worked as empty stock to Edinburgh.


    10:55 p.m. Edinburgh – London. Not Saturdays.

    Seven carriage set departing Edinburgh. I calculate the weight to be 200 T 7 Cwt.

    Portions from Glasgow, Montrose and Fort William.
    Glasgow portion, departed Glasgow 9:35 p.m. The carriages worked down on the previous 11:45 p.m. (Mon-Fri only version from London).
    Montrose portion, departed Montrose 7:50 p.m. Down working the previous 8:15 p.m. (Mon-Fri only from London).
    Fort William portion, departed Fort William 5:05 p.m. The carriages, including a Sleeping car, worked down on previous 7:55 p.m. (Mon-Fri only from London).


    10:55 p.m. Edinburgh – London. Saturdays Only.

    Three carriage set on departure Edinburgh. I calculate the weight to be 95 T 3 Cwt.
    All from Glasgow, departing 9:35 p.m.

    11:15 p.m. Edinburgh – London. Not Saturdays

    Ten carriage set on departure Edinburgh. I calculate the weight to be 305 T 15 Cwt.
    This makes it the heaviest overnight up train.

    Portions from Inverness, Aberdeen, and Glasgow
    Inverness portion, departed Inverness 5:00 p.m. Four carriages worked down on the previous day’s 7:55 p.m. (Mon-Fri Only from London).
    Aberdeen portion, departed Aberdeen 7:35 p.m. Five carriages worked down on the previous day’s 8:15 p.m. (Mon-Fri Only from London)
    Glasgow portion, departed Glasgow 9:35 p.m. (for Newcastle), worked down on the previous day’s 8:15 p.m., attached at Newcastle for Glasgow (Mon-Fri Only from London).

    According to Bradshaw’s for July 1922, this train did not take up passengers from Edinburgh, though the 11:05 p.m. in Bradshaw’s for April 1910 has no such restriction. The April 1910 Bradshaw’s, being springtime has sleeping saloons and through carriages from Inverness and Perth on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays only, with daily Sleeping cars from Aberdeen, Dundee, Glasgow and Edinburgh. Bradshaw’s for 1922 has restaurant facilities advertised for passengers between Aberdeen and Edinburgh. No such facility is advertised for the 1910 service. It is difficult to reliably determine when the Edinburgh restriction and the provision of dining car for Aberdeen – Edinburgh started without further research. My guess would be it came in post-WWI.

    Posting limits mean that Sunday workings are to follow
    Last edited by borderreiver; August 14th, 2019 at 09:35 AM.

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    Default The Up Overnight Express Passenger Train Overview

    Sundays

    Two overnight trains in the Up direction departing Edinburgh on Sunday nights.

    7:45 p.m. Edinburgh – London. Sundays only.

    Seven carriage set on departure Edinburgh. I calculate the weight to be 218 T 4 Cwt.

    Portions from Aberdeen, Perth and Edinburgh.
    Aberdeen portion departed Aberdeen at 3:30 p.m. Two carriages worked down on the previous day's Saturdays Only 11:30 p.m.
    The Perth portion departed Perth at 4:10 p.m. Two carriages worked down to Perth on the previous day’s Saturdays Only 11:30 p.m.
    Edinburgh portion. Two carriages worked down on the previous day’s 2:20 p.m. while the Sleeping car had worked down to Aberdeen on the previous day's Saturdays Only 11:30 p.m. from London, then worked back to Edinburgh empty stock earlier on Sunday.

    The T.W.C.I. only mentions working locally back to Edinburgh but to balance the workings it would have had to return to London at some point before Saturday. There were 17 of the Class/Diagram on stock, veterans from 1899, but only one weekly working explicitly listed, the SO Down 11:45 p.m. There may have been rather a lot of flexibility as to how and when it worked Up to London. It is my assumption that it did so on the Sunday night.

    The lack of van space in the Perth portion is unusual since passengers, particularly First Class, tended not to travel light. Having to recover baggage from the N.B.R. brake van on arrival Edinburgh and then shift it to one of the two Brake Compos in the train for London would be a significant inconvenience. The only reason I can think of this being tolerated would be that few passengers were expected to travel, meaning baggage would be stowed in one or more empty compartments!

    Note: - Where experience suggested a higher number of passengers, I believe that Perth would not normally have an E.C.J.S. Brake Van, Brake Compo or Brake Third to hand in a siding. However, on a Sunday afternoon there were four E.C.J.S. carriages in the sidings, which were all rostered to depart Perth at 7:55 p.m. Monday. The carriages were a Brake Van and Third which had arrived that morning from London along with a Brake Van and Third which had worked as empty stock from Inverness on Saturday. A telegram or telephone call to Edinburgh might have sufficed to authorise the connection of a Brake Van (or both Brake Van plus Third) to the Sunday 4:10 p.m. departure.

    It is important to realise that the T.C.W.I. were a set of requirements but were not written in stone. Circumstances could, and did, require departures from what the T.C.W.I. required. Strengthening, substitution, duplication and even triplication were necessary at times and where possible departures from the T.C.W.I. would keep in mind the quality of the original required carriage and the number of seats. Carriages were no more reliable then than they are now and failures could happen. The District Traffic Superintendents at London, York, Newcastle and Edinburgh were authorised to make changes as they deemed necessary.

    There were carriages available at the major stations to cover. For example, the TC.W.I. has no formal roster for any of the eight Class 283/E.C. Diag. 53 Brake Thirds built in 1901. This at the same time as the T.C.W.I. requiring five out of the six 1896/1897 built Class 262/265 E.C. Diag. 50/51 carriages! Similarly, there are no formal rosters for the six 1901 built Class 322/323 E.C. Diag. 54/55 Brake Thirds. There were sixteen Thirds to Class 73/E.C. Diag. 22, built in 1907 on stock but are invisible the 1914 T.C.W.I.

    Others were used lightly. The T.C.W.I. required four Class 98/E.C. Diag. 49 daily but there were seven on stock. That is seventeen Brake Third carriages and sixteen Third carriages to draw upon, though where each was allocated is guesswork and of course they also were sometimes in the workshops.

    10:50 p.m. Edinburgh – London. Sundays Only.

    Eight carriage set on departure Edinburgh. I calculate the weight to be 258 T 12 Cwt

    Portions from Glasgow and Edinburgh.
    Glasgow portion, departed Glasgow 8:35 p.m. Three carriages worked down to Glasgow on the previous day’s Saturdays Only 11:45 p.m.
    Edinburgh portion. Two carriages worked down to North Berwick on Friday’s 11:45 p.m. Empty stock then to Edinburgh on Saturday. One carriage worked down on the Saturdays Only version of the 11:30 p.m.while another worked down on the Saturday’s Only version of the 11:45 p.m.A final one worked down on Saturday’s 11:20 a.m.

    Detailed breakdowns to follow.
    Last edited by borderreiver; August 14th, 2019 at 09:36 AM.

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    Default 1914 E.C.J.S. Down Express Passenger Train Detailed breakdown

    Detailed Consists - Down Trains
    Listings start at the head of the train, working towards the rear.
    On the E.C.M.L. all Brake vans, Brake Composites, Brake Thirds and Locker Composites had special instructions applicable to them regarding the loading of baggage and mails etc.

    ¹ indicates that the Through Carriage Working Instructions explicitly specify a dual-braked carriage is utilised.

    Weekdays – Monday to Saturday
    9:50 a.m. London to Edinburgh.
    Eight carriage set on departure London. 257 T 14 Cwt.

    London to Edinburgh
    BTK #280 Diag 52
    TK #93 Diag 23
    TK #93 Diag 23
    TO #354 Diag 33
    RTP #313 Diag 30
    RF #310 Diag 76A
    FK #86 Diag 56A
    BG #45 Diag 36

    10:00 a.m. London to Edinburgh, Glasgow, Perth and Aberdeen.
    Ten carriage set on departure London. 303 T 17 Cwt

    York to Edinburgh
    NER GPO
    London to Glasgow
    BTK #97 Diag 49A
    CK #78 Diag 3A
    London to Edinburgh
    CK #1 Diag 2A
    TO #192 Diag 29A
    RK #211 Diag 80A
    FO #190 Diag 75A
    London to Perth
    CG #76 Diag 2B
    London to Aberdeen
    CK #1 Diag 2A
    TK #24 Diag 34
    BG #155 Diag 39B

    10:35 a.m. London to Edinburgh and Glasgow.
    Ten carriage set on departure London. 295 T 14 Cwt

    York to Newcastle – (Bristol to Newcastle through carriages)
    MR BT
    MR C
    MR BT
    London to Glasgow
    BCK¹ #342 Diag 47
    TK¹ #38 Diag 19
    London to Edinburgh
    CK #301 Diag 13
    RTP #64 Diag 31
    RC #352 Diag 78
    TK #38 Diag 19
    BG #45 Diag 36
    London to Peterborough – (London to Cromer through carriages)
    GNR Semi-Open Third
    GNR BCK
    GNR BG
    Grantham to Doncaster – (Saturdays Only)
    GNR BTK
    GNR TK
    Newcastle to Alnmouth
    NER BC
    NER BT

    While the T.C.W.I. lists non-corridor Midland Railway carriages, the N.E.R. 1912-13 Winter timetable advertises the 9:45 a.m. from Bristol to Newcastle as having dining facilities! Bradshaw's for April 1910 on page/table 578 advertises the 9:45 a.m. as the "Newcastle Corridor Express, Restaurant Car Bristol to Newcastle". This means the Midland Portion to Newcastle was formed of corridor stock, though the Dining cars probably were removed at either Sheffield Midland or at York. Dining facilities betwen York and Newcastle would be in the E.C.J.S. dining cars so long as the carriages were corridor stock (and had adaptors to fit between the M.R. British Standard and E.C.J.S Pullman connections).

    11:20 a.m. London to Edinburgh, North Berwick, Perth and Montrose.
    Nine carriage set on departure London. 287 T 8 Cwt

    London to Edinburgh
    BTK #262 Diag 50
    London to Perth
    CK #298 Diag 12
    London to Montrose
    CG¹ #17 Diag 2
    TK¹ #38 Diag 19
    London to Edinburgh
    RTP #64 Diag 31
    RC #316 Diag 79
    FK #86 Diag 56A
    BG #45 Diag 36
    London to North Berwick
    BCK¹ #80 Diag 45
    Darlington to Newcastle – (Keswick – Newcastle through carriage)
    NER BC

    2:20 p.m. London Kings Cross - Edinburgh Waverley. Monday to Friday.
    Nine carriage set on departure London. 274 T 13 Cwt

    London to Edinburgh
    BCK #239 Diag 46
    TK #24 Diag 34
    TK #24 Diag 34
    TO #14 Diag 15
    RTP #304 Diag 29
    RF #332 Diag 77A
    FK #122 Diag 58
    BG #19 Diag 35
    London to Newcastle
    BV #49 Diag 37

    2:20 p.m. London to Edinburgh. Saturday Only.
    Eleven carriage set on departure. 364 T 9 Cwt.

    London to Edinburgh
    BTK¹ #98 Diag 49
    BCK #239 Diag 46
    TK #24 Diag 34
    BCK¹246 Diag 6A
    TK #24 Diag 34
    TO #14 Diag 15
    RTP #304 Diag 29
    RF #332 Diag 77A
    FK #122 Diag 58
    BG #19 Diag 35
    London to Newcastle
    GNR BCK (Possibly 61ft6in GN Diagram 171, 218A, 218F or 218G)

    7:55 p.m. London to Inverness and Fort William. Not Saturday.
    Nine carriage set on departure London. 246 T 9 Cwt

    London to Inverness
    BG #45 Diag 36
    TK #24 Diag 34
    TK #24 Diag 34
    SLF #120 Diag 63
    CK #17 Diag 2
    BG #19 Diag 35
    London to Fort William
    TK #38 Diag 19
    SLC #90 Diag 69
    BG #289 Diag 42

    8:15 p.m. London to Edinburgh, Montrose and Aberdeen. Not Saturday.
    Eight carriage set on departure London. 235 T 16 Cwt

    Newcastle to Glasgow
    BTK¹ #262 Diag 50 (brake van at south end and departed London at 4:30 p.m. via GNR passenger train)
    London to Glasgow
    BG #19 Diag 35
    London to Edinburgh
    BG #19 Diag 35
    London to Aberdeen
    BG #19 Diag 35
    TK #24 Diag 34
    TK #24 Diag 34
    SLF #165 Diag 64
    BCK #239 Diag 46
    London to Montrose
    BTK #262 Diag 50 (brake van at south end)

    8:45 p.m. London to Edinburgh and Glasgow. Not Saturday.
    Eleven carriage set on departure London. 274 T 5 Cwt

    London to Hull
    GNR 6w Brake Van (As required)
    London to Leeds
    GNR 6w Mail Van
    London to Newcastle
    GNR 6w Mail Van
    GNR 6w Mail Van
    GN&NEJS BG
    Newcastle to Edinburgh
    NER GPO
    London to Glasgow
    BCK #239 Diag 46
    TK #24 Diag 34
    SLC #147 Diag 72
    London to Edinburgh
    BTK #98 Diag 49
    Twin CK #202 Diag 5
    BTK #262 Diag 50

    11:30 p.m. London to Aberdeen and Perth. Saturdays Only.
    Eight carriage set on departure London. 244 T 7 Cwt.

    London to Aberdeen
    BCK #342 Diag 47
    TK #38 Diag 19
    SLF #125 Diag 62
    London to Perth
    SLF #120 Diag 63
    TK #24 Diag 34
    CK #17 Diag 2
    TK #38 Diag 23
    BG #45 Diag 36

    11:45 p.m. London to Newcastle, North Berwick, Edinburgh and Glasgow. Mon to Fri.
    Nine carriage set on departure London. 282 T 12 Cwt.

    Newcastle to Edinburgh
    B #49 Diag 37
    London to Glasgow
    BCK #342 Diag 47
    BTK #98 Diag 49
    SLF #235 Diag 66
    London to Edinburgh
    BTK #262 Diag 50 (brake van at south end)
    London to North Berwick
    SLF¹ #235 Diag 66 (Detached at Newcastle at 5:18 a.m. – Attached to 5:50 a.m. N.E.R. departure for Edinburgh ǂ)
    BCK¹ #80 Diag 45 (Detached at Newcastle at 5:18 a.m. – Attached to 5:50 a.m. N.E.R. departure for Edinburgh ǂ)
    London to Newcastle
    GN&NEJS SLF
    GN&NEJS TK
    GN&NEJS BG

    ǂ North Berwick portion detached at Drem, arrives 9:08 a.m.

    11:45 p.m. London to Newcastle, North Berwick, Edinburgh and Glasgow. Saturday Only.
    Eight carriage set on departure London. 227 T 17 Cwt.

    Newcastle to Edinburgh
    B #49 Diag 37
    London to Glasgow
    BCK #342 Diag 47
    TK #38 Diag 23
    SLF #165 Diag 64
    London to Edinburgh
    TK #38 Diag 23
    BTK¹ #280 Diag 52
    London to Newcastle
    GN&NEJS BG
    GNR BG
    London to York
    GNR BG


    Sundays Only

    During 1914 there were no E.C.J.S daytime express passenger train departures from London for Scotland.
    By 1922 Bradshaw’s for July shows a single E.C.J.S. Down daytime express passenger train, departing at 11:30 a.m. and was a Restaurant Car express to Edinburgh and Glasgow. 8:30 p.m. at Edinburgh and 9:50 p.m. at Glasgow

    8:45 p.m. London to Edinburgh and Glasgow.
    Eleven carriage set on departure London. 300 T 5 Cwt

    London to Leeds
    GNR 6w Mail Van
    London to Newcastle
    GNR 6w Mail Van
    GNR 6w Mail Van
    GN&NEJS RTP (GN&NEJS stock working ECS)

    GN&NEJS RF
    Newcastle to Edinburgh
    NER GPO (Attached Newcastle at 3:08 a.m. Monday)

    London to Glasgow
    BCK #239 Diag 46
    TK #24 Diag 34
    SLC #147 Diag 72
    London to Edinburgh
    BTK #98 Diag 49
    Twin CK #202 Diag 5
    BTK #262 Diag 50

    11:45 p.m. London to Newcastle, North Berwick, Edinburgh and Glasgow.
    Nine carriage set on departure London. 282 T 12 Cwt.

    Newcastle to Edinburgh
    B #49 Diag 37 (Attached at Newcastle at 5:18 a.m. Monday)
    London to Glasgow
    BCK #342 Diag 47
    BTK #98 Diag 49
    SLF #235 Diag 66
    London to Edinburgh
    BTK #262 Diag 50 (brake van at south end)
    London to North Berwick
    SLF¹ #235 Diag 66 (Detached at Newcastle at 5:18 a.m. Monday – Attached to 5:50 a.m. N.E.R. departure for Edinburgh ǂ)
    BCK¹ #80 Diag 45 (Detached at Newcastle at 5:18 a.m. Monday – Attached to 5:50 a.m. N.E.R. departure for Edinburgh ǂ)
    London to Newcastle
    GN&NEJS SLF (GN&NEJS working as empty stock)
    GN&NEJS TK
    GN&NEJS BG

    ǂ North Berwick portion detached at Drem, arrives 9:08 a.m.
    Last edited by borderreiver; August 28th, 2019 at 11:53 AM. Reason: Formatting and new information on the Midland Bristol - Newcastle set

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    Default 1914 E.C.J.S. Up Daytime Express Passenger Train Detailed breakdown

    Detailed Consists - Daytime Up Trains

    Listings start at the head of the train, working towards the rear.
    On the E.C.M.L. all Brake vans, Brake Composites, Brake Thirds and Locker Composites had special instructions applicable to them regarding the loading of baggage and mails etc.

    ¹ indicates that the Through Carriage Working Instructions explicitly specify a dual-braked carriage is utilised.


    Weekdays – Monday to Saturday

    7:45 a.m. Edinburgh to London. Not Sundays.
    Six carriages on departure Edinburgh. 173 T 16 Cwt

    Edinburgh to Newcastle
    NER BCK (NE Diag 174, 3 built 1909. 4 built 1912)
    NER RC (NE Diag 166 3 built 1908)
    Newcastle to London
    GN&NEJS BG (NEJS Diag 13 or 18)
    GN&NEJS FK (NEJS Diag 6)
    GN&NEJS RF (NEJS Diag 1)
    GN&NEJS RTP (NEJS Diag 2)
    GN&NEJS TO (NEJS Diag 9)
    Edinburgh to London
    TK #38 Diag 19
    TK #38 Diag 19
    CG #292 Diag 10
    BG #45 Diag


    10:00 a.m. Edinburgh to London. Not Sundays.
    Eight carriage set on departure Edinburgh. 257 T 14 Cwt

    Edinburgh to London
    BG #45 Diag 36
    FK #86 Diag 56A
    RF #310 Diag 76A
    RTP #313 Diag 30
    TO #354 Diag 33
    TK #93 Diag 23
    TK #93 Diag 23
    BTK #280 Diag 52


    10:15 a.m. Edinburgh to London.
    Ten carriage set on departure Edinburgh. 303 T 17 Cwt

    Aberdeen to London
    BG #155 Diag 39B
    TK #24 Diag 34
    CK #1 Diag 2A
    Perth to London
    CG #76 Diag 2B
    Edinburgh to London
    CK #1 Diag 2A
    FO #190 Diag 75A
    RK #211 Diag 80A
    TO #192 Diag 29A
    Glasgow to London
    CK #78 Diag 3A
    BTK #97 Diag 49A


    10:25 a.m. Edinburgh to London.

    Four carriage set on departure Edinburgh. 121 T 1 Cwt

    Edinburgh to London
    BTK #262 Diag 50
    Twin CK #202 Diag 5
    BTK #98 Diag 49
    BG #45 Diag 36


    12:25 p.m. Edinburgh to London.

    Six carriage set on departure Edinburgh. 181 T 9 Cwt

    Glasgow to London
    TK¹ #38 Diag 19
    BCK¹ #342 Diag 47
    Edinburgh to London
    FK #86 Diag 56A
    RC #316 Diag 79
    RTP #64 Diag 31
    BG #45 Diag 36
    Drem to London – (North Berwick to London through carriages)
    BCK¹ #80 Diag 45


    2:00 p.m. Edinburgh to London.

    Seven carriage set on departure Edinburgh. 238 T 4 Cwt

    Edinburgh to London
    BG #19 Diag 35
    FK #122 Diag 58
    RF #332 Diag 77A
    RTP #304 Diag 29
    TO #14 Diag 15
    TK #24 Diag 34
    BG #19 Diag 35


    2:30 p.m. Edinburgh to London.

    Eight carriage set on departure Edinburgh. 274 T 15Cwt

    Aberdeen to London
    TK¹ #38 Diag 19
    CK¹ #17 Diag 2
    Perth to London
    CK #298 Diag 12
    RC #352 Diag 78
    Edinburgh to London
    RTP #64 Diag 31
    CK #301 Diag 13
    Glasgow to London
    TK #24 Diag 34
    BCK #239 Diag 46


    6:25 p.m. Edinburgh to Leeds (via York).
    This was not an E.C.J.S. express passenger train.
    Ten carriage set Monday 254 T 16 Cwt
    Nine carriage set Tuesday to Saturday 241 T 19 Cwt

    Edinburgh to York
    BG #49 Diag 37 (Attached Mondays Only)
    BG #49 Diag 37
    BG #19 Diag 35
    BG #19 Diag 35
    Glasgow to Leeds (Source 1926 NE Area Carriage Roster Set #313)
    NER¹ BTK (3) (NE Diag 157)
    NER¹ TK (NE Diag 156)
    NER¹ TO (NE Diag 155)
    NER¹ RT (NE Diag 170)
    NER¹ FO (NE Diag 158)
    NER¹ BFK (2) (NE Diag 154)

    A single example of 3-compartment BTK to NE Diagram 194 was built during 1912, so it is possible that carriage ran in the Leeds to Glasgow set.
    However, ten very similar BTKs were built by York to Diagram 555 for the LNER S Area GE section during 1923 as Nos. 1051E-60E (from 1925 Nos. 62504-13).


    Sundays
    12:00 p.m. Edinburgh to London.
    Three carriage set on departure Edinburgh. I calculate it to be 96 T 19 Cwt.

    Edinburgh to London
    BTK¹ #98 Diag 49
    CG
    ¹ #246 Diag 6
    BTK¹ #280 Diag 52



    Detailed breakdown of overnight trains to follow.
    Last edited by borderreiver; August 21st, 2019 at 06:29 AM. Reason: Formatting

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    Default 1914 E.C.J.S. Up Overnight Express Passenger Train Detailed breakdown

    Weekdays – Monday to Friday
    7:45 p.m. Edinburgh to London.
    Six carriage set departing Edinburgh. 179 T 2 Cwt
    Edinburgh to York
    NER TPO (Possibly NE Diag 183)
    Edinburgh to London
    BG #45 Diag 36
    BTK #262 Diag 50 (Brake at south end)
    SLC #147 Diag 72
    TK #24 Diag 34
    BCK #239 Diag 46


    10:35 p.m. Edinburgh to London. Mondays Only.
    Seven carriage set on departure Edinburgh. 220 T 1 Cwt
    Perth to London

    BG #45 Diag 36
    BG #45 Diag 36
    TK #24 Diag 34
    TK #24 Diag 34
    Edinburgh to London
    BCK¹ #80 Diag 45
    SLF¹ #235 Diag 66
    BTK #262 Diag 50 (Brake at north end)


    10:35 p.m. Edinburgh to London. Not Mondays.
    Five carriage set on departure Edinburgh. 159 T 15 Cwt
    Perth to London
    BG #45 Diag 36
    TK #24 Diag 34
    Edinburgh to London
    BCK¹ #80 Diag 45
    SLF¹ #235 Diag 66
    BTK #262 Diag 50 (Brake at north end)


    10:55 p.m. Edinburgh to London.
    Seven carriage set on departure Edinburgh. 200 T 7 Cwt.
    Montrose to London
    BTK #262 Diag 50 (brake van at south end)
    Glasgow to London
    BTK #98 Diag 49
    SLF #235 Diag 66
    BCK #342 Diag 47
    Fort William to London
    SLC #90 Diag 69
    TK #38 Diag 19
    BG #289 Diag 42


    11:15 p.m. Edinburgh to London.
    Ten carriage set on departure Edinburgh. 305 T 15 Cwt.
    This makes it the heaviest overnight up train.
    Glasgow to Newcastle
    BTK¹ #262 Diag 50 (Brake at south end)
    Inverness to London
    BG #19 Diag 35
    CK #17 Diag 2
    SLF #120 Diag 63
    TK #24 Diag 34
    Aberdeen to London.
    BCK #239 Diag 46
    SLF #165 Diag 64
    TK #24 Diag 34
    TK #24 Diag 34
    BG #19 Diag 35


    Saturdays

    10:55 p.m. Edinburgh to London.
    Three carriage set on departure Edinburgh. 95 T 3 Cwt.
    Glasgow to London.
    TK #38 Diag 23
    SLF #165 Diag 64
    BCK #342 Diag 47


    Sundays

    7:45 p.m. Edinburgh to London.
    Seven carriage set on departure Edinburgh. 218 T 4 Cwt.
    Aberdeen to London
    TK #38 Diag 19
    BCK #342 Diag 47
    Perth to London
    TK #38 Diag 23
    CK #17 Diag 2
    Edinburgh to London
    SLF #125 Diag 62
    TK #24 Diag 34
    BCK #239 Diag 46


    10:50 p.m. Edinburgh to London.
    Eight carriage set on departure Edinburgh. 258 T 12 Cwt
    Glasgow to London
    TK #38 Diag 23
    SLF #165 Diag 64
    BCK #342 Diag 47
    Edinburgh to London
    SLF #120 Diag 63
    TK #38 Diag 23
    BCK¹ #80 Diag 45
    SLF¹ #235 Diag 66
    BTK #262 Diag 50 (Brake at north end)
    Last edited by borderreiver; August 27th, 2019 at 05:53 AM. Reason: Reformatting

  15. #15
    Join Date
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    Default The E.C.J.S. "Bigger Picture"

    The E.C.J.S. “Bigger Picture”.

    Is this the complete picture of E.C.J.S. carriage rostering in 1914? No, it is not. To quote Steve Banks from his website: “If there's a moral in all this it's that reality bites: surviving records such as Carriage Working books that are all too often trotted out as if gospel only indicate what was planned, not what happened on a practical basis.” Taking a look at his work on the website relating to the L.N.E.R. period Flying Scotsman gives an example of the pitfalls when looking at things from seven or more decades down the line. Some misrepresentations in books are mentioned. Authors can and do make errors.

    The 1914 T.C.W.I. reproduced in Harris has no details of the duplicates. Duplication, substitutions and strengthening did take place. How you do it as a modeller should be guided by some operating principles, which Banks mentions. One such is; “The actual choice of stock should come as no surprise for all the best carriages in the fleet were spoken for in specific trains in the normal pecking order, from the best to, shall we say, the least best. Laid aside in the carriage sidings was a selection of the principal types and qualities for substitution as required, and more or less complete spare sets that were adjusted according to need for a relief. On a busy day many trains were duplicated, occasionally even run in three "parts". A strengthening carriage would, as far as practicable, be selected to match the quality of the train. Even so, the closest match available on the day to the operating department might not have been a close one. Inevitably, part three of a triplication was likely to be rather older than the scheduled train which was being triplicated.

    Looking at the 1926 L.N.E.R. N.E. Area July 1926 Carriage Roster gives me a clue as to the possible existence of other workings of E.C.J.S. carriages, particularly the full brake vans. This roster must be treated with caution, since it dates to three and a half years after the grouping, which itself was somewhat different from that applicable to 1914. However, the N.E.R.A. preface expresses the opinion that, given it pre-dates the major changes coming to the L.N.E.R. during the late 1920s, it is the closest reproduction of the last year of N.E.R. pre-grouping operations which is currently known. I must also advise that in the 1926 roster the former E.C.J.S. and G.N. & N.E.J.S. carriages surviving in use on the East Coast Main Line in East Coast main Line services from the East Coast allocation pool were all considered as “East Coast” carriages. A carriage built post-1923 and in “E.C.” stock would also be labelled as “East Coast” Carriages in the roster.

    How does this connect to the pre-1923 E.C.J.S.? The L.N.E.R. N.E. Area roster has a section on “foreign” carriages and one for “Mail, Parcels and Milk Vans”. Carriages which originated outside the L.N.E.R. N.E. Area and were bound for destinations outside the L.N.E.R. N.E. Area are completely invisible in the roster.

    Roster No. 57 – E.C. XVV – Edinburgh dep 10:25 a.m.
    York arr 4:48 p.m. dep 7:44 p.m.
    London arr unknown. – possibly the arrival at London may have varied by time and even route taken.

    This carriage is visible in the N.E. roster because it required handling at York – it was detached from one train and attached to another.
    An XVV was a 52ft Vacuum-ATB fitted carriage – no E.C.J.S or E.C.M.L. L.N.E.R. carriage was 52ft though – a 56ft 6in bogie or 61ft 6in bogie carriage would do.

    Roster No. 58 – E.C. XVV – Edinburgh dep 2:35 p.m.
    Newcastle arr 6:40 p.m. dep 7:15 p.m.
    York arr 9:34 p.m. dep 10:10 p.m.
    London arr 3:25 a.m.

    This van leaves Edinburgh behind an ordinary passenger train (N.E. roster No. 19 - which started its day at Ferryhill in County Durham at 7:35 a.m. and would end its day on reaching York at 9:34 p.m.). The 2:35 p.m. took four hours five minutes to cover the one hundred and twenty-five miles to Newcastle. From Newcastle at 7:15 p.m. in the Up direction this four passenger carriage roster (which ran with a strengthening fifth carriage (Lav Compo) (Newcastle at 9:20 a.m. to York at 9:34 p.m.)) would have no less than six vans plus a N.E.R. - P.O. attached!

    The E.C. XVV from Edinburgh
    One VV (32ft) attached at Tweedmouth for Leeds (Roster No. 4)
    Two more E.C. XVV from Newcastle to London (Roster No. 126)
    One N.E. or G.C. XVV for Manchester (Roster No. 100)
    One N.E. or G.C. XVV to Liverpool (Roster No. unknown). I could not find a roster number for a GC XVV van in the N.E. Area book with a timing from Newcastle at 7:15 p.m.!

    With the probability that the 6:25 p.m. Edinburgh - York conveyed one of the three 52ft NE Diag 183 TPOs, the newest in stock, it is possible that the 7:15 p.m. from Newcastle hauled one of the five older 1904 built 52ft NE Diag 93 carriages. In pre-grouping days the livery carried was that of the N.E.R. with a scarlet box painted around the mail slot in the side of the carriage for letters posted at station stops.

    Roster No. 114 – E.C. XVV – London dep 4:55 a.m. – typo – I believe it to be the 4:45 a.m.
    York arr 9:18 a.m. dep 9:38 a.m.
    Edinburgh arr 1:44 p.m. dep 7:40 p.m. – the 7:45 p.m. in the 1914 T.C.W.I.
    London arr 6:44 a.m.

    Roster No. 115 – E.C. XVV – London dep 4:45 a.m.
    York arr 9:18 a.m. dep 10:05 a.m.
    Edinburgh arr 3:40 p.m. dep 7:40 p.m. – the 7:45 p.m. in the 1914 T.C.W.I.
    London arr unknown

    Roster No. 126 – E.C. XVV – London dep 4:55 a.m. – typo – I believe it to be the 4:45 a.m.
    York arr 9:18 a.m. dep 10:05 a.m.
    Newcastle arr 12:09 p.m. dep 7:15 p.m. – the 7:45 p.m. in the 1914 T.C.W.I.
    York arr 9:34 p.m. dep 10:10 p.m.
    London arr 3:25 a.m.

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