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Thread: No slowing down for yellow, please

  1. #1
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    Default No slowing down for yellow, please

    Dear people at N3V,

    Could we please have an option to get rid of the slowing down of the trains when approaching a CAUTION signal, or even an ADVANCED CAUTION signal, a long way (0.5 km at least) before the signal is passed?
    This is not prototypical for normal continental trains. It may be for high-speed trains or very heavy trains with cab signalling, but classic continental trains do not have cab signalling. There is sufficient distance between the caution/warning/yellow and the danger/stop/red signals for a normal breaking procedure. The driver/engineer will start slowing down his/her train near the warning signal (if not later, depending on weight and speed).
    The implementation in Trainz slows down the gameplay in a manner which, to me, is unprototypical and annoying.
    A tick box in the Settings would be appreciated...

    Paul

  2. #2
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    I agree, the train should not slow down to half speed way before getting to the yellow signal. It should only slow down after it.
    TS06, TS09, TS10, TS12, New Era SP3

  3. #3
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    I'd like to add NOT slowing down for Approach Medium/Limited signals as well. Annoys the bananas out a me when an AI flies along a string of greens only to choke up at an App Med/Lim, when the actual protection sig in Med/Lim Clear. I have painfully eliminated many of these Distant sigs in favor of a single head that reads green to maintain line speeds. Now that that's out I actually feel better...
    (-3-)y-~~

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by hutten View Post
    Dear people at N3V,

    Could we please have an option to get rid of the slowing down of the trains when approaching a CAUTION signal, or even an ADVANCED CAUTION signal, a long way (0.5 km at least) before the signal is passed?
    This is not prototypical for normal continental trains. It may be for high-speed trains or very heavy trains with cab signalling, but classic continental trains do not have cab signalling. There is sufficient distance between the caution/warning/yellow and the danger/stop/red signals for a normal breaking procedure. The driver/engineer will start slowing down his/her train near the warning signal (if not later, depending on weight and speed).
    The implementation in Trainz slows down the gameplay in a manner which, to me, is unprototypical and annoying.
    A tick box in the Settings would be appreciated...

    Paul
    Hello Paul,

    I totally agree.

    Kind regards

    Kurt

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewiscc65 View Post
    I agree, the train should not slow down to half speed way before getting to the yellow signal.
    Agree on the "not a long way before the signal".

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewiscc65 View Post
    It should only slow down after it.
    Totally disagree. The rules are (or at least in many parts of the world; I don't know for all obviously):

    • If the next speed limit is higher than your current speed, you are allowed to increase the speed of your train when it has completely passed the sign.
    • If the next speed limit is lower than your current speed, you should have slowed down to that lower speed limit before you pass the sign.

    A signal at yellow effectively means a slower speed limit, so you should have slowed down before the sign(al), so please keep the AI to act accordingly.

    I am happy if the AI reaches that slower speed closer to the sign(al), but not after it as that would be against the common rules.

  6. #6
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    Good afternoon oknotsen,

    Thanks for your detailed comment. The rules do differ, however. I was not fully sure myself but I just had another look. In Holland (where I live) there are yellows and flashing yellows. They differ with respect to the speed limit restrictions. A simple yellow warning, however, like a double yellow in Belgium, merely indicates that the next signal may be at stop and that the engineer must act accordingly. There may be an additional speed indicator on the warning signal, and it indicates that the speed indicated must be attained before the next signal. Flashing signals and flashing speed indications, however, impose speed limits at the location of the signal itself.
    See, for example, here for an English text: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgia...way_signalling.

    Paul

  7. #7
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    In real life it depends on route knowledge. For the most part when I am about 200m from a double yellow I will start braking, although really light. Just to get the train under control.

    For single yellow the brake goes on pretty much when the signal is sighted.
    In some locations where you know your next signal is pretty far off you wouldn't brake much at all at first sight of the signal.

  8. #8
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    From what I remember, Auran/N3V used the NORAC Rule book as the basis for their signal operation. There are rules that govern cab or non-cab signal operations, but N3V has defaulted to non-cab signal operation, and I think this is where things go a bit awry and maybe this can be changed through a rule but I'm not sure.

    http://signals.jovet.net/rules/NORAC...al%20Rules.pdf ---- The signal chart with explanations.

    http://www.hubdiv.org/docs/signaling/NORAC.pdf ---- Other rules covering other aspects of train operation. Starting on page 78 is an explanation on the rules in detail regarding the various signals and page 84 give more detail on yellow signals.

    N3V could have used other rule books I'm sure, but their choice of NORAC rules might have been purposeful because it's very generic. There are other rule books available worldwide, and regional specific in the US and Canada. With all these possible combinations, it makes me wonder if they settled on one with the hopes the community would work out their other regional differences, however, the base logic remains in place.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
    TRS2019: 98592

  9. #9
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    I thank everyone for sharing their knowledge (even professional knowledge in some cases) here. I hope that more people will comment.
    Nonetheless, I wish that N3V would somehow allow us to change or tweak the behaviour of our trains to allow us to better "model" the local procedures.

    Paul

  10. #10
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    Now that I think about it, make the yellows do what some of the 08/interlocking signals do would be about right. I recall some of them act as speed limit signs when using their diverging aspects thus slowing a train much closer to the signals mount point. Even the 06 signals seem too do this when using restricted aspects. So, why not use this to make yellows slow down a train close to it as well.

    Food for thought...
    (-3-)y-~~

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by maruffijd View Post
    Now that I think about it, make the yellows do what some of the 08/interlocking signals do would be about right. I recall some of them act as speed limit signs when using their diverging aspects thus slowing a train much closer to the signals mount point. Even the 06 signals seem too do this when using restricted aspects. So, why not use this to make yellows slow down a train close to it as well.

    Food for thought...
    That would be the JR signals with their custom scripting. I don't see why that logic can't be applied to other signals. The general rule, since NORAC is a speed-controlled system and not direction-controlled like GCOR and CROR, and others, approaching a yellow indicates the driver must run at medium speed, which turns out to be about one half of the posted speed. This is exactly what the AI drivers do even if it annoys us.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
    TRS2019: 98592

  12. #12
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    I use an invisible signal at the appropriate distance before the caution. The invisible signal stays green if the caution signal is yellow allowing full speed up to the invisible signal, then the consist slows for the yellow.

    Cheers Bob
    Last edited by Robert65d; July 21st, 2019 at 10:10 PM. Reason: Spelling correction

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCitron View Post
    That would be the JR signals with their custom scripting. I don't see why that logic can't be applied to other signals. The general rule, since NORAC is a speed-controlled system and not direction-controlled like GCOR and CROR, and others, approaching a yellow indicates the driver must run at medium speed, which turns out to be about one half of the posted speed. This is exactly what the AI drivers do even if it annoys us.
    I think the point was to cause this slowdown closer to the yellow than .57-.59 miles early. I mean let the train run at full tilt until it needs to slow down in time for knocking down the yellow. Having my AI drop to half speed and crawl at 50% speed for about that half mile BEFORE it crosses the sigs threshold makes me a tad cuckoo. Especially when I am following one of these turtled trains in my Loco.
    (-3-)y-~~

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by maruffijd View Post
    I think the point was to cause this slowdown closer to the yellow than .57-.59 miles early. I mean let the train run at full tilt until it needs to slow down in time for knocking down the yellow. Having my AI drop to half speed and crawl at 50% speed for about that half mile BEFORE it crosses the sigs threshold makes me a tad cuckoo. Especially when I am following one of these turtled trains in my Loco.
    I believe this is realistic. The rules say to slow down to one half the speed on yellows. The reason for such a long distance out is because of how long it's supposed to take to stop a train. The unfortunate part is our simulator, if want to call it that, doesn't quite have that kind of stopping distance and acts more like the trains have magna-traction motors and are controlled like models instead of the real thing even in cab mode.

    Maybe it's time to forego a signal change and focus on actual engine and wagon specs and make them more realistic instead. I'm not saying what we have is bad, but things can always be improved. Let's face it too a lot of our technology is still ca 2001 technology even with the latest locomotives and rail cars, and coupled with that (no pun intended) we still use a lot of older rolling stock and even locomotives. In order to overcome our signaling issue, it may mean updating both the underlying game engine as well as engine and rail car e-specs.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
    TRS2019: 98592

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCitron View Post
    I believe this is realistic. The rules say to slow down to one half the speed on yellows. The reason for such a long distance out is because of how long it's supposed to take to stop a train. The unfortunate part is our simulator, if want to call it that, doesn't quite have that kind of stopping distance and acts more like the trains have magna-traction motors and are controlled like models instead of the real thing even in cab mode.

    Maybe it's time to forego a signal change and focus on actual engine and wagon specs and make them more realistic instead. I'm not saying what we have is bad, but things can always be improved. Let's face it too a lot of our technology is still ca 2001 technology even with the latest locomotives and rail cars, and coupled with that (no pun intended) we still use a lot of older rolling stock and even locomotives. In order to overcome our signaling issue, it may mean updating both the underlying game engine as well as engine and rail car e-specs.
    AH. Funny thing is, The AI train waits till the last second to slow down for speed limit reduction signs, but drops the same speeds half way across the county (I'm embellishing a bit) for a yellow. Putting the (game) engine in the shop for a tuneup (pun intended)is an excellent and overdue idea.
    (-3-)y-~~

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