Independent bake/train pulling power issues in TANE with multiple engines

I'm (trying) to drive a heavy train up a pass (steam engines), with a mallet in front and a 2-8-2 pushing at the rear. And I've been having problems. First, it keeps stalling out on a grade lower than what the same consist could handle in a grade test route I'd set up. Also, wheelslip is chronic, even when the engine should have absolutely no problem with a light train. Even on nearly level, it's hard to keep there from being chronic wheelslip, and often it seems to have no effect. Can some sort of route/environmental setting control adhesion? The same assets didn't have any problems in 09'. Should outside controlled conditions tonnage rating should be reduced? I've also had annoying low/visibly stuttering framerates - is that the problem?

Second, I can't seem to set the independent brakes on the head end/pusher -steam- engines separately. (To let the slack bunch up against the pusher.) The game seems to treat it as one independent brake for the entire train. Is something off, did pressing the independent brake bail screw something up, or does TANE no longer feature separate brakes for steam engines? If the latter, than how do you start a train on a grade if you can't control the slack?



(--Historically speaking, should I use a pusher ahead of the caboose, or double head the train? The train's longer than I'm used to, and quickly switching between engines is harder than I'm used to. ~1700 ton train, 4% grade, year ~1910.)
 
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I found little practicality on running 150 car trains. But if you absolutely must, break the train into whatever one engines can carry up the slope. What you try to do, believe me, we all have tried, at one time or another with more or less success, at the end the trouble is greater that the results. As per setting brakes, it used to work as expected, but at some time on the evolution of the game, it was left not being reliable, and today it is an "if" situation. Not being negative, just realistic.
 
I agree about 150 car trains, but these are steep grades and engines from around 1910 - I'm hauling just 20 wooden truss-rod coal gondolas. Which is perfectly reasonable. And I've done trains of around that length with two steamers up front and one in the back perfectly fine before. Busy, but doable. Question - in TANE, compared to previous versions, do you have to be more careful with throttle changes? I've heard they actually did make the rails more "slippery," with the result of constant wheelslip no matter what I do. It seems you'll have it if anything isn't perfect.

I also looked at the vehicle physics rule, and... Since 09' the tractive effort boost by sanding has been reduced from 25% to 10%. Which doing the math, means I should drop from 20 to 16 coal gons.

But brakes aren't reliable??? Shouldn't that have been patched by now? (Has it?) It kind of critical to running trains. What kind of unreliable? Some times and not others, some consists and not others, some routes and not others? What goes wrong? And if it can't be fixed, then... Why did I buy TANE again?

The train stalling also frequently comes with really slow framerates (likely single digits), is that what's causing it? It also seems that if I'm entering track with a steeper grade than what I'm on, if at any point throttle is less than required for a section of track, increasing it to enough always causes wheelslip and stalling. (Do I have to increase throttle before an increase in grade (to what? this isn't the steepest part), instead of when the train reaches it?
 
Hi BrasselC5048
In the case of the independent brake, these are linked together with steam locos. As far as I recall, this has been the case as far back as TRS2004. Unfortunately it does mean that you won't be able to brake the locos independently. Keep in mind that Trainz is designed around using a westinghouse train brake, and as such if you are modelling an unbraked train, then you may start to see some limitations come into play with the brakes.

If you are working with a train with full train brakes, then these should be able to be operated close to realistically, depending on the enginespec of the locomotives and wagons. Not all are created as well as they could be, in particular with the brakes. This is up to the creators of the assets to do, we cannot force creators to make or use accurate enginespec assets.

I have not seen issues with unreliable brakes, however with very long trains you may see very long times for the brakes to apply or release as in real life. Most railways have a limit of how many wagons you can have before you need a locomotive with a working air compressor (or an air compressor wagon), so as to ensure that the brakes work properly.

In regards to the steam physics, there have been changes and improvements to the steam physics in TANE. However this does mean that some older enginespecs may behave differently, both in terms of wheelslip and in terms of boiler operation from what I've seen. In this case you may need to either adjust the enginespec or try a different enginespec for the locos. Depending on the enginespec, this may result in a more 'slippy' loco than previous editions.

One thing to note is that any steam locomotive designed for Trainz Classics 1/2 or earlier will not function proper in TS2009 or newer; they use a very different enginespec and enginesound configuration. To make it work properly in TS2009 or newer, it will need to have the trainz-build number in the locomotive, cab view, drivers bogie, enginespec, and enginesound assets to be set to 2.9 or higher to work correctly; the enginespec and enginesound also need to be configured correctly for the newer steam physics/sounds system.

Regards
 
Hi BrasselC5048
In the case of the independent brake, these are linked together with steam locos. As far as I recall, this has been the case as far back as TRS2004.

It wasn't that way in 06' SP1. I haven't actually done much driving since I updated to 09 from being the last 06' holdout. I just assumed it would work the same way.


In regards to the steam physics, there have been changes and improvements to the steam physics in TANE. However this does mean that some older enginespecs may behave differently, both in terms of wheelslip and in terms of boiler operation from what I've seen. In this case you may need to either adjust the enginespec or try a different enginespec for the locos. Depending on the enginespec, this may result in a more 'slippy' loco than previous editions.

I'm actually doing the final check on an enginespec I wrote. (I've written plenty of 09' specs before) The other engine in the train also had an 09' one I wrote. Both were tested pretty heavily, but in 09'. Question - what's changed, and in what direction? Steam raising capacity higher or lower? What things tend to lead to it being more 'slippery'? (Everything I've tried in TANE has been slippery.) Should I increase the adhesion value?

Not all are created as well as they could be, in particular with the brakes. This is up to the creators of the assets to do, we cannot force creators to make or use accurate enginespec assets.

Willing to point to some NA early 20th century assets that have accurate enginespecs regarding brakes? I can use that to see if any changes are needed to my enginespecs.
 
Brasel, I'm interested. I too thought that the independent engine brake was per steam loco and not a train brake. I found that at least in TS19 it is not per loco. If I find the time I can go back into TANE then TS12 then TR09 then TRS04. TRS06 doesn't like my new win10 desktop though it ran in win10 on the laptop ok. TC3 is a relic with good intentions but it won't get reinstalled. TS10 was removed to make room to reinstall TS09 - for some reason that escapes me at the moment.

Wheelslip in my most humble opinion has been a problem since it's introduction in TC3. We can debate static, rolling and sliding friction values for various track and wheel conditions with and without sand but I don't think that's the problem. Again IMO it is the result of the new steam physics and the especs we use to define the steam loco parameters. The system results in locos that produce too much tractive force. An espec that gets 140% to 200% of the rated TE is guaranteed to generate wheelslip. When I do in game testing I always turn off wheelslip in the script I use to record the test. How can you determine the TE produced when the wheels slip constantly. You can't. With it essentially deactivated you can set the controls thru their full range for the tests. I set the espec to produce the rated TE and then when placed in game with the default wheelslip params the locos usually behave in a prototypical manner.

I've done 100's of test measuring TE vs time and speed along with numerous engine params. I constantly get too much force produced at the rail. I brought this to N3V's attention in discussion in TS09 development and often since then but they just blow me off. I've been told my clearance volumes must be all wrong - they aren't. Besides I've tested a range of values. They say the TE is very sensitive to the clearance. I said - very politely - that's just BS. If the new steam simulation is so sensitive to clearance volume then it's flawed and needs to be fixed.

I find out much later that steam locos with the new steam physics produce a lot more TE going forward then going in reverse. With the same control settings and BP - I've measured 40 to 60% more. That's not an accurate simulation of a steam loco's performance. This has been known and ongoing for many years now - thru TANE SP3 the last version I've tested. You can see some changes over the years in the tests I've run. They've been playing with the front end code trying to fix the problem but with limited success. Hopefully they'll get it right soon. In my tests the loco produces about the correct TE (compared to the real life one) when going in reverse and too much TE when going forward.

I've wondered around a bit here but getting back to your problem if I may I'd like to ask, what locos you're testing and if they're available on the DLS?

Bob Pearson
 
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Trainz physics have never been particularly accurate, the more so with steam traction!
 
Bob - I'd love to get hold of the material you're referring to as things are very different in 2019 vs 2009.

It is a goal of mine to address the statement of "Trainz physics have never been particularly accurate". Very few people ever add any weight to the comment and use specifics such as you are addressing Bob.

they are more likely to say "the loco accelerates (or brakes) too fast" or "it accelerates (or brakes) too slow" when these are easily tweaked.

Wheelslip is certainly something that has changed over time (primarily due to bug fixes elsewhere rather than directly changing anything), and needs some tweaking.

In my tests the loco produces about the correct TE (compared to the real life one) when going in reverse and too much TE when going forward.

If you can contact me through feedback@n3vgames.com with more detail on that, that sounds like something we could address quite easily.
 
It is a goal of mine to address the statement of "Trainz physics have never been particularly accurate". Very few people ever add any weight to the comment and use specifics such as you are addressing Bob.

Support for vacuum braking or "stepped" air braking would be a start... :)
 
Brasel, I'm interested. I too thought that the independent engine brake was per steam loco and not a train brake. I found that at least in TS19 it is not per loco. If I find the time I can go back into TANE then TS12 then TR09 then TRS04. TRS06 doesn't like my new win10 desktop though it ran in win10 on the laptop ok. TC3 is a relic with good intentions but it won't get reinstalled. TS10 was removed to make room to reinstall TS09 - for some reason that escapes me at the moment.
Seems going back as far as TRS04 the ind. engine brake acts per train and not per engine.

What I've done recently after stalling on grade (using rod locos in adhesion mode going up grade on the Abt rack in Tasmania - in Trainz - thanks Vern small world isn't it) is to set the rear loco to start pushing with the cutoff at max and regulator at something less then I expect to get wheelslip. Head to the front loco, set the cutoff at full, release the air brake and as the loco starts to move down grade a bit (hopefully the couplers start to compress) open up the regulator to stop the motion and start moving fwd. Might takes several tries to get it going - reapplying brakes and making another attempt. Also doesn't hurt to have the safeties popping while your doing it. Put the steam blower on full if that's what it takes. Don't forget the sand.

@Brasel
Another thought I had is curve resistance on grade. Trainz now includes curve resistance and I'm not sure when it came in - TS09 or 10 maybe. But if the test grade doesn't have curvature similar to the grade you running on the results will be different.

@Tony
Thanks for the comments and the request with a link. I'll add some plots I made last year on this problem to some thoughts I penned and send them on.

Bob Pearson
 
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