TRS19 Content delivery strategy causing major route development problems

Hi Cayden
I have checked these assets here, and it appears that many are updates to DLS assets. Once I have confirmed which are updates to DLS assets, I'll ask our content team to make sure that these are uploaded to the DLS.

However some are assets that are exclusive to specific DLC packs, such as:

<kuid2:57230:21660:1> Donner P12 GreenRock10
<kuid:57230:21755> WP12 rock05
<kuid2:82412:23043:1> TUME-23043-Scrap-Metal




The first two were provided by Jango as part of the Sebino Lake, Italy DLC pack, and this author has not released these assets on the DLS.

The last is by TUME and is part of their Season Town USA and Milwaukee Road Avery-Drexel DLC routes/DLC packs, and again the author has not released these assets onto the DLS.

The rest I will need to double check before I pass them on to our team to look into.

Regards

Hi Zec,

Thanks for looking into these assets. I didn’t know there was a content management team that we could go to with these kinds of issues. Guess I have been making content rather than running content for too long. As Whamm0 has said, if the number of problem assets can be narrowed down then it will be easier for him to make a few substitutions and release an updated version of the compatible route.

Looking forward to developments.

Cayden
 
Hello,

Your problems as route builders are much bigger, but as a user I am also annoyed at a simple fact. If I want all the assets of a 4.6-build route I downloaded from the DLS, I may have to download some or many of the DLC routes that are so-called "included" with TRS19. That means tons of GB of routes and assets that I don't want and don't need, and do not even have the space for. I only need those four, six or twenty assets that I am missing in CM but that I am entitled to have in game. I just want to be able to download those from the DLS. If they are not freeware for those that do not have TRS19, fine, than find a mechanism to differentiate between users having different versions of the game.

Regards,
Paul
 
Hi Paul

An a la carte system like you describe would be useful to avoid large downloads of unwanted content. Unfortunately I think it falls on route creators to farm out as many of these dlc only assets to help you avoid that. To n3v's credit they are trying to make available assets that are just newer versions of existing DLS assets which accidentally got placed into dlc.

In general, allowing users to pick and choose assets they need from content they have access to would be nice to have though.

Walter
 
The problem here all along has been that when a route developer uses Surveyor to create a route there is no way to know that an item that is being added to the route is payware or something only available from a DLC. It is unreasonable to expect a route creator to have to go through many hundreds, or even thousands, of content items in the average a route to weed out the items not available on the DLS since they do not look any different in Surveyor then a normal DLS download item.

There are only two possible solutions. These are:

1. Everything must be on the DLS. That may not be possible however due to payware contractual issues.

2. Color code item name green in both Surveyor tab lists and in CM route dependency lists so that it is easy for the route creator to know the items that are not available on the DLS. This way we can replace them with items that are on the DLS.

Bob
 
Whilst I sympathise as a route builder, it's not that hard to check your own route by right clicking on it in CM, list dependencies, then list by status and easily see if any show as payware. If so, you replace them with a freeware item. At least that's what I do.
 
Yes, one can do that easily for payware only, but that fails when the asset shows as built-in due to being put in a free dlc pack. Can't tell those as easily. End users then see unknown for the asset when they download the route. It all depends on how well the assets are categorized.
 
I've already taken this one up with N3V. All of the TFX and Clutter assets I have used in recent routes now appear as payware. As those assets form one of the highlighted functionalities of TRS 19, that problem needs to be rectified ASAP. I am about to upload https://forums.auran.com/trainz/sho...S-19-Route-1950s-Glory-Years-Valley-Run-Redux to the DLS but I am concerned that all of the clutter and TFX assets will appear as 'missing assets'.

Regards
Bob
 
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There are assets on the list posted by Cayden that were made by creators who have said that they want what they make to be freely available to the Trainz community to be enjoyed. So for N3V to make their assets payware is like giving them a punch on the nose and laughing in their face. Freeware should not become payware. If N3V commissions someone to make an asset fair enough it should be payware, but locking out freeware in the face of their creators' intentions is a crappy thing to do in my book.
 
There are assets on the list posted by Cayden that were made by creators who have said that they want what they make to be freely available to the Trainz community to be enjoyed. So for N3V to make their assets payware is like giving them a punch on the nose and laughing in their face. Freeware should not become payware. If N3V commissions someone to make an asset fair enough it should be payware, but locking out freeware in the face of their creators' intentions is a crappy thing to do in my book.
Let's face it , the whole system of assets that NV3 have created can be described as a curates egg, a dogs breakfast , or a lash up, or a mix of all three. It's never really been thought through, it's just been bandaided over and over again so we end up with his melange of freeware , payware, items being hosted on external sites , defunct items unable to be updated, etc, etc, it's probably too big a job to ever fix, it's a bit like a fire underground that cannot be extinguished, all one can ever do is tinker with it and put out flare ups as they occur. It's evident that the company do not have sufficient resources to ever tackle the job so that these problems are eliminated, but color coding assets in CM might be a start.
 
Let's face it , the whole system of assets that NV3 have created can be described as a curates egg, a dogs breakfast , or a lash up, or a mix of all three. It's never really been thought through, it's just been bandaided over and over again so we end up with his melange of freeware , payware, items being hosted on external sites , defunct items unable to be updated, etc, etc, it's probably too big a job to ever fix, it's a bit like a fire underground that cannot be extinguished, all one can ever do is tinker with it and put out flare ups as they occur. It's evident that the company do not have sufficient resources to ever tackle the job so that these problems are eliminated, but color coding assets in CM might be a start.

If there were points to award for posts, I'd give you 1000 to start!

I've said before that instead of doing a *.*, why not lock what's only payware? (The *.* for those that don't know is the old CP/M, Unix/Linux, DOS, Windows command line reference to everything. You want to copy all contents from a folder (directory) to an other location you'd use copy *.*)

The answer I was given is the packaging system doesn't work that way and they want to make an all inclusive install with all assets and make it easier to download the payware all in one shot. If that's the case, then it breaks what's already installed, and my thinking much later, after that thread had long disappeared, that this is still a lazy man's easy way out.

Let's look at this in a bit more detail.

Many of the assets used are built-in or installed from the DLS so this is a wasted download that overwrites what's already installed, and locks down built-in and sometimes DLS assets that are already there by up-versioning them to use the packaged assets.

What's so difficult with having the installer check what's already there before installing? Content Manager does this now when installing something from the DLS.

If stuff isn' already installed and is required from the DLS, the installer should check dependencies just as Content Manager already does, and automatically download these assets from the DLS. We can't say that the speed will be any different because stuff has to be downloaded anyway. The content store, even though it's contacting the DLS, shouldn't be affected by a user's lack of FCT should they not have one.

Simple and done. It may require some extra If then, do while, and for to loops, and some fetching, but that's part of the download process anyway when we install something off the DLS.

The way they're doing it now makes N3V appear as though they are slowly removing the DLS from the picture and locking down content so it cannot be modified or updated locally. Maybe as much as they deny it, this is their intent, if not it sure appears that way. If we wanted locked payware, we would have gone to the other company where most everything is payware. As it stands now, when a packaged route is installed then removed, assets that were up-versioned, are now missing assets. This causes a multitude of problems requiring an EDR, and hunting missing dependencies on the DLS or elsewhere. If only the proprietary payware assets are locked, this is no longer an issue because when the payware removed, that is the only thing that is removed and nothing else. I have found a workaround for this issue, but I need to reaffirm my steps before I release my processes, and possibly send in a bug report on this matter.
 
Does this have anything to do with this conversation:

See quote below - From THIS THREAD

Uninstalling and reinstalling would fix the issue, and how it got to this state is most likely moving stuff around manually (something we're trying to avoid with the introduction of the .tzarc format which is soon to be unleashed). -- Tony Hilliam
 
The problem here all along has been that when a route developer uses Surveyor to create a route there is no way to know that an item that is being added to the route is payware or something only available from a DLC. It is unreasonable to expect a route creator to have to go through many hundreds, or even thousands, of content items in the average a route to weed out the items not available on the DLS since they do not look any different in Surveyor then a normal DLS download item.

There are only two possible solutions. These are:

1. Everything must be on the DLS. That may not be possible however due to payware contractual issues.

2. Color code item name green in both Surveyor tab lists and in CM route dependency lists so that it is easy for the route creator to know the items that are not available on the DLS. This way we can replace them with items that are on the DLS.

Bob

A fairly easy option would be to add the following filters to the 'search filter' tool in Surveyor:

Filter 1: On Download Station = True
Filter 2: OR
Filter 3: Built-in
Filter 4: AND
Filter 5: On Download Station True

This will then display only content that is built-in and on the DLS, or is simply from the DLS. Actually, you can probably simplify to just 'on Download Station' = 'True' and it should show the same assets.

Anything else will be excluded from the content lists. You can save filters in the content search filter panel, so you can easily apply this filter as desired.

This issue is specifically concerned with updates to DLS content that has been provided to us (or that we have had to update in-house in some cases) to package the DLC pack. Normally we will put these updates onto the DLS, or request the creator of the asset to upload an update, however in some cases this may be missed. In those cases, we will try to get the update released onto the DLS as soon as possible.


However content that is provided to us that is NOT already on the DLS will not be placed onto the DLS by us. This content may be exclusive to the DLC pack, or it may be 'freeware' from a 3rd party website that they have included in their DLC pack. In this case, you would either need to find the source of the asset, or have the DLC pack installed; we generally cannot put this content onto the DLS, only the original creator can do this.

In regards to packaging all assets into the DLC pack, this is done to ensure that players see a streamlined, easy, installation system. We do not intend to make players download a DLC pack, then have to hunt for dependencies (including the DLS) to try to install their DLC packs. We have made a number of improvements to the handling/packaging of DLC packs, via the new TCCP system, which should hopefully improve the handling of dependencies a lot more as well, however as it is still new it may take a little time to see how things go when larger DLC packs are processed through it :)

Regards
 
@ZecMurphy - just curious on how it goes for the uploads of those few items that were updates to dls items? (Please see post #138)

For the remaining dlc only assets, the first two are just textures. How do I go about replacing/removing those textures?

Thanks
Walter
 
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If you turn on show kuids in surveyor items not on the DLS as in third party or your own creations not yet uploaded appear in Red.
 
I've just waded through this thread and even at this point there does not appear to be a solution. It appears that the issue is that N3V want to protect the content used in DLC from changes, and route creators want to have continued free access to that content. I can see the logic of both sides and I suggest that it could be possible for N3V and Content creators to get what they want,

It would require the creation of an "locking" key character which is added to the kuid of all content used for a DLC route. This would effectively guarantee the safety of DLS used content while still allowing use and updating of the original item. I suggest that this could be achieved by modification of the current process used for locking DLS items.

It could also be used if a DLC author wanted to limit the item to use of his content by uploading his content using the locking key added to the KUID.

Just a thought.

Peter
 
Hi All
We are still working on this, but the good news is that I have confirmed what assets are available from the DLS. Unfortunately the following reported assets are non DLS assets, and as such would require the relevant DLC pack(s) to be able to install them (unless available from another source):

<kuid:57230:21755> WP12 rock05
<kuid2:82412:23043:1> TUME-23043-Scrap-Metal
<kuid:661281:75013> Tree Broadleaf 02 Darker
<kuid:661281:75012> Tree Broadleaf 01 Darker
<kuid:661281:85139> PBR TS09 55 Asphalt
<kuid2:57230:21660:1> Donner P12 GreenRock10
<kuid2:122860:100323:2> (TS12) RockCliff Ground seasonal
<kuid2:565830:100115:1> (TS12) MossyRock Ground

Unfortunately it will take some time to organize the other assets to be uploaded to the DLS.

In regards to usage of assets, there are no restrictions of using assets included in DLC packs. As it has always been with payware for Trainz, if you use an asset that is exclusive to a DLC pack or payware pack in a route, then anyone downloading that route would need to purchase the relevant DLC pack or payware pack.


Content from the DLS is still DLS content, however in a few cases updates need to be made internally to fix issues with those DLS assets. We try to upload these as soon as possible, however in some cases they may be forgotten by the time they are confirmed to be fixed/working. In this case, once we the specific assets have been reported and we have verified they are DLS asset updates, we will get them uploaded ASAP.

Regards
 
Peter as far as I am aware the asset is only locked for that version which comes with the DLC package. If you update that asset and it has a higher version number on the DLS the DLC one becomes obsolete. Over time even those DLC assets will become out of date as Trainz moves forward.

There are some assets that show as unknown and if you look at asset versions the latest shows unknown. In some cases if you select the unknown asset and use download this version it will download.
 
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I'm not a route maker so this problem doesn't affect me but i see this:-.

Route builders want to keep content unlocked, and N3V want to lock the content to prevent changes that will affect the payware route.

It seemed to me that there could be a method that makes the content hidden from being listed in the editor, while still allow use for the original to be used and updated.

So:-

If Original content is used for for a payware route a process like this would solve the problem of locked content required by NV3 used for It would also allow the creation of content where the content creator wants to sell the content separately forms route.. The process would be something like this:-

An item is run through the current process, which currently locks it as payware but instead of locking, a marker of some type is added to the KUID or the KUID is altered by the addition of a hidden symbol. When the route is accepted, I suggest that it is run through a process that adds the locking key to copies of the original route content. The end result is that the user will have complete access to all the original content but the normal user is not able to access and change any content uploaded with the route, while the original content is still open for normal use.

This is all 'off the cuff'. It seems that as the original content is locked which has required internal changes to add the locking code, a. A bit of positive thinking about this will solve the problem. The locking change only happens when a payware route goes through the final 'packaging' process.

As I see it, something like this would 'preserve' all the original content without preventing it's use elsewhere. I thinks most of this process already exists, and could be modified.

I'm old and tired so i hope this all makes sense. My coding days are long gone but I suggest that this would not be too difficult. Perhaps someone could create a flow chart.

Peter
 
A real mess!

Hi All
We are still working on this, but the good news is that I have confirmed what assets are available from the DLS. Unfortunately the following reported assets are non DLS assets, and as such would require the relevant DLC pack(s) to be able to install them (unless available from another source):

<kuid:57230:21755> WP12 rock05
<kuid2:82412:23043:1> TUME-23043-Scrap-Metal
<kuid:661281:75013> Tree Broadleaf 02 Darker
<kuid:661281:75012> Tree Broadleaf 01 Darker
<kuid:661281:85139> PBR TS09 55 Asphalt
<kuid2:57230:21660:1> Donner P12 GreenRock10
<kuid2:122860:100323:2> (TS12) RockCliff Ground seasonal
<kuid2:565830:100115:1> (TS12) MossyRock Ground

Unfortunately it will take some time to organize the other assets to be uploaded to the DLS.

In regards to usage of assets, there are no restrictions of using assets included in DLC packs. As it has always been with payware for Trainz, if you use an asset that is exclusive to a DLC pack or payware pack in a route, then anyone downloading that route would need to purchase the relevant DLC pack or payware pack.


Content from the DLS is still DLS content, however in a few cases updates need to be made internally to fix issues with those DLS assets. We try to upload these as soon as possible, however in some cases they may be forgotten by the time they are confirmed to be fixed/working. In this case, once we the specific assets have been reported and we have verified they are DLS asset updates, we will get them uploaded ASAP.

Regards

This is getting real confusing. I have 21 assets from the Oyster Bay Compatible Edition that list as “unknown”. Five are not available on the DLS. I get that, and a couple I have no idea why they are not there. But there are 14 that are on the DLS but with lower KUID numbers. Four of these are even TRS19 compatible. But for all fourteen someone has created new copies with higher version numbers, which are not on the DLS. So these, the bulk of my missing assets are no longer available to me for TRS19 routes I might download (e.g., Oyster Bay) or routes I might create. If it were a T:ANE route I was downloading or creating all 14 would be available to me.

And sadly there is no way I can fix this.

Cayden

xihHrQy.png
 
If you have a lower version on the DLS download it and then in the route delete missing assets. This should delete the higher kuid number but still retain the asset. I did it awhile ago with some assets and it worked for me.
Those missing assets will be found in one of the free routes on the DLC. C & O Hinton and Cornish Mainline are two routs that contain some of those assets.
 
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