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We're also working out the best way to ensure it is easy for route builders to know which items can be used that can then be accessed by others. Note that this is not a TRS19 issue, it has been around for most of the lifetime of Trainz. The issue now is that there aren't one or two routes involved, but dozens or combinations (and hence the need to introduce systems to improve the process for both route builders and "general users".
Thank you for the reply, Tony, at least now we know this issue is acknowledged and being worked on.
Ron
5. Old content should no longer be shielded in Trainz by showing it as "built-in" in order to avoid the content restrictions we third party developers have to contend and live with. As an example I have seen in TRS19 built-in items with build numbers as low as 1.2 that would not be allowed for us 3rd party developers to upload to the DLS. You all should have to live with the same content restriction rules you impose on us. Shielding it also ensures that it is not updated to keep up with the times. It is many of these old items that seem to be causing problems.
Bob
We do not actively remove content from the Download Station, except in extreme situations, such as when it is in breach of the code of conduct, or the Download Station upload agreement. There have been some prior cases (around 10 years ago) where content was removed on request of the original creator; however our policy is now to not do this so as to avoid missing dependencies. In otherwords, content will only be removed if it includes inappropriate content (ie pornography, or coarse language, or similar), or has been uploaded without the original creator's permission.1. First and foremost we 3rd party route developers need the assurance that any content that was originally submitted to the DLS will always be available for download to those who use our routes.
This is entirely up to the creator of the asset, we cannot and will not force people to upload content to the Download Station.2. The DLS is the best option to ensure availability of content at all times. Any item of freeware content that is used in Trainz, whatever the version, should be on the DLS.
Again, this is up to the creator of the content. If a creator spends hundreds of hours making scenery objects for their route, and decides to release them exclusively in a DLC pack, then this is their choice. We will not force them to release their payware content on to the DLS.3. Content that needs to be included in DLCs or in Trainz should just have a copy of that content from the DLS. Content in DLCs and the various Trainz versions should not be just available exclusively in that DLC or Trainz version.
You can check this for content included in DLC packs by using the 'payware' filter in either the Surveyor filter menu, or in Content Manager. Currently it will also include content that is 'exclusive' in the included content packs in TANE/TRS19.4. If payware must be used it should capable of being turned off when selecting content in Surveyor for use in a freeware route that is going to be uploaded to the DLS. This ensures that we freeware route developers don't include it on our routes by mistake that go to the DLS.
Unfortunately we only have a small team available, and as such it's not possible for us to update every built-in asset to the latest Trainz-build numbers. In many cases, the assets are retained for legacy purposes, or because they are used by a route or session in Trainz.5. Old content should no longer be shielded in Trainz by showing it as "built-in" in order to avoid the content restrictions we third party developers have to contend and live with. As an example I have seen in TRS19 built-in items with build numbers as low as 1.2 that would not be allowed for us 3rd party developers to upload to the DLS. You all should have to live with the same content restriction rules you impose on us. Shielding it also ensures that it is not updated to keep up with the times. It is many of these old items that seem to be causing problems.
Removing it from the DLS isn't the only way that it can be made unavailable for download. Making it built-in or payware also means that it can't be downloaded. DLS items should not be built-in or payware, and where this has happened in the past they need to be deletable so that the DLS version is again available. And please don't say 'If it's built-in or payware it doesn't need to be downloaded': that excuse ignores the advantages that DLS has over DLC.We do not actively remove content from the Download Station, except in extreme situations, such as when it is in breach of the code of conduct, or the Download Station upload agreement.
the advantages that DLS has over DLC.
Just so we're reading from the same page, can you please advise the different types of edits you do, and which is the most common situation.
1. Do you then save the item with the same KUID? New revision of the old KUID? Save under your own KUID? Or does it depend?
2. How do you redistribute? Privately, upload to the DLS etc?
Thanks again SailorDan. We're still working out various options and trying to ensure we capture all possibilities when addressing these things.
BuilderBob - regarding: "<kuid2:661281:100035:1> C&O 2-6-6-6 H8 - New River Mining Coal Run is installed by default. It is a session of <kuid2:453099:100037:20> C&O Hinton Division and includes <kuid:175455:100379> GBCX Cylindrical Hopper which is a freeware item from Jointed Rail. "
>>
We've worked out the process required to get into this situation and how to get out of it.
1. Install items from a 3rd party site (which lists them as modified in CM).
2. Install a N3V DLC item that also has that item (and in this case, it is marked Payware as it is not on the DLS).
3. Your modified item shows as faulty (since the program is expecting a payware item and you have a modified version installed)
The solution is to Open for Edit and Revert to Original. This will install the payware version. (How to edit that is a different issue, but it does resolve your faulty item).
-snip-
No content has been, or will be, removed so as to be included in DLC packs.
This is entirely up to the creator of the asset, we cannot and will not force people to upload content to the Download Station. Again, this is up to the creator of the content. If a creator spends hundreds of hours making scenery objects for their route, and decides to release them exclusively in a DLC pack, then this is their choice. We will not force them to release their payware content on to the DLS. In some cases, DLC packs may include 'free' content from 3rd party websites. This will be marked as 'payware', since it has not been sourced from the DLS (our system cannot detect how an item is distributed on 3rd party websites, so non DLS content will be marked as 'payware'). Unless the 3rd party website removes the asset from their website, it would still be available as freeware as well.
You can check this for content included in DLC packs by using the 'payware' filter in either the Surveyor filter menu, or in Content Manager. Currently it will also include content that is 'exclusive' in the included content packs in TANE/TRS19. You can also filter out content that is marked as 'payware' in Trainz by using the 'payware' filter, and set it to 'false'.
Unfortunately we only have a small team available, and as such it's not possible for us to update every built-in asset to the latest Trainz-build numbers. In many cases, the assets are retained for legacy purposes, or because they are used by a route or session in Trainz. They are, however, not actually 'shielded' from errors, all built-in content must be error free in Trainz (the same applies to content in DLC packs as well now). The exception is that we do not mark built-in content as faulty for not including the 'source' textures, since built-in content intentionally only includes the .texture files.There is also no restriction on you, a content creator, making content to older trainz-build numbers if you so chose. The limitation is that you would need to either update the trainz-build number to upload to the Download Station, or the asset would be placed into the repair queue for the Content Repair Group to update.
Zec:
Thank you for the reply. My response as follows:
Really? I decided to run a test in Content Manager to see what content items were in my TRS19, including the free DLCs we had to install, but not on the DLS. It turned out that there were over 7,700 such items. I have to admit that even I was surprised at how just many there were. Here is the screenshot from my content manager of the test results so you can see for yourself:
Nothing can better ruin a hobby than to turn it into a business, unless it is having someone else turn your hobby into his or her business.
This development reminds me of a comment I heard when the US patent office, and others, allowed people to patent genes simply because they saw/identified them first, but had no idea of what they did.
“If you make a camera [Trainz] you own the camera. If you take/make a picture with the camera [a route] you own the picture. If you take a picture of the moon, the planets and the stars [the assets] do you own the universe?”
Of course not! Because, despite the DLS contract, you (N3V) didn’t make the moon, the planets and the stars.
Why all the machinations? In what direction is N3V’s moral compass pointed? If you have had no creative input into an asset you have no moral right to profit directly from it!
I think SailorDan has put it succinctly.
“…DLS items should not be built-in or payware, and where this has happened in the past they need to be deletable so that the DLS version is again available. And please don't say 'If it's built-in or payware it doesn't need to be downloaded': that excuse ignores the advantages that DLS has over DLC.
Similarly, 3rd party content hosted on other sites is NOT 'available for download' if it is included as a payware item, because the user cannot download the freeware item to overwrite the payware item. Again, payware needs to be deletable.”
The DLS, with its almost 500,000 assets the vast majority of which have not been created by N3V and up until now have been freely available, is the heart of Trainz.
In my opinion its okay to sell the program you have created. Its okay to sell route(s) you have created. It is not okay to sell assets you did not create.
This is an important issue.
Continued free access to DLS content, or not, will determine the future of Trainz.
Cayden
Generally, the reason for the change to a built-in item is that it is used in an existing route but that it doesn't work properly or is missing some important functionality. It would be unusual that the edited item would not replace the built-in item, either directly or by obsoleting. Issues of optimization or pre-caching are less important than having the route look and work correctly. Users that are interested in multi-player already know that they can't make changes.Note also that whilst it is possible, it is not recommended as editing built-in items will have the following consequences: