TRS19 Content delivery strategy causing major route development problems
- Thread starter MSGSapper
- Start date
Tony:
Thank you for taking the time to reply!
As a person devoted to freeware Trainz route development, and any content needed to do that, I hope you will take the following into consideration when formulating your new content deployment strategy:
1. First and foremost we 3rd party route developers need the assurance that any content that was originally submitted to the DLS will always be available for download to those who use our routes.
2. The DLS is the best option to ensure availability of content at all times. Any item of freeware content that is used in Trainz, whatever the version, should be on the DLS.
3. Content that needs to be included in DLCs or in Trainz should just have a copy of that content from the DLS. Content in DLCs and the various Trainz versions should not be just available exclusively in that DLC or Trainz version.
4. If payware must be used it should capable of being turned off when selecting content in Surveyor for use in a freeware route that is going to be uploaded to the DLS. This ensures that we freeware route developers don't include it on our routes by mistake that go to the DLS.
5. Old content should no longer be shielded in Trainz by showing it as "built-in" in order to avoid the content restrictions we third party developers have to contend and live with. As an example I have seen in TRS19 built-in items with build numbers as low as 1.2 that would not be allowed for us 3rd party developers to upload to the DLS. You all should have to live with the same content restriction rules you impose on us. Shielding it also ensures that it is not updated to keep up with the times. It is many of these old items that seem to be causing problems.
Bob
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What he said! Built-in should only be applied to new content supplied with new products or new DLC. Older products and DLC that is obsolete should have their assets available on the DLS unless specified by the author.
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ZecMurphy
Community Assistant
I should be able to help on a few of these 
No content has been, or will be, removed so as to be included in DLC packs.
In some cases, DLC packs may include 'free' content from 3rd party websites. This will be marked as 'payware', since it has not been sourced from the DLS (our system cannot detect how an item is distributed on 3rd party websites, so non DLS content will be marked as 'payware'). Unless the 3rd party website removes the asset from their website, it would still be available as freeware as well.
You can also filter out content that is marked as 'payware' in Trainz by using the 'payware' filter, and set it to 'false'.
They are, however, not actually 'shielded' from errors, all built-in content must be error free in Trainz (the same applies to content in DLC packs as well now). The exception is that we do not mark built-in content as faulty for not including the 'source' textures, since built-in content intentionally only includes the .texture files.
There is also no restriction on you, a content creator, making content to older trainz-build numbers if you so chose. The limitation is that you would need to either update the trainz-build number to upload to the Download Station, or the asset would be placed into the repair queue for the Content Repair Group to update.
Regards
We do not actively remove content from the Download Station, except in extreme situations, such as when it is in breach of the code of conduct, or the Download Station upload agreement. There have been some prior cases (around 10 years ago) where content was removed on request of the original creator; however our policy is now to not do this so as to avoid missing dependencies. In otherwords, content will only be removed if it includes inappropriate content (ie pornography, or coarse language, or similar), or has been uploaded without the original creator's permission.
No content has been, or will be, removed so as to be included in DLC packs.
This is entirely up to the creator of the asset, we cannot and will not force people to upload content to the Download Station.
Again, this is up to the creator of the content. If a creator spends hundreds of hours making scenery objects for their route, and decides to release them exclusively in a DLC pack, then this is their choice. We will not force them to release their payware content on to the DLS.
In some cases, DLC packs may include 'free' content from 3rd party websites. This will be marked as 'payware', since it has not been sourced from the DLS (our system cannot detect how an item is distributed on 3rd party websites, so non DLS content will be marked as 'payware'). Unless the 3rd party website removes the asset from their website, it would still be available as freeware as well.
You can check this for content included in DLC packs by using the 'payware' filter in either the Surveyor filter menu, or in Content Manager. Currently it will also include content that is 'exclusive' in the included content packs in TANE/TRS19.
You can also filter out content that is marked as 'payware' in Trainz by using the 'payware' filter, and set it to 'false'.
Unfortunately we only have a small team available, and as such it's not possible for us to update every built-in asset to the latest Trainz-build numbers. In many cases, the assets are retained for legacy purposes, or because they are used by a route or session in Trainz.
They are, however, not actually 'shielded' from errors, all built-in content must be error free in Trainz (the same applies to content in DLC packs as well now). The exception is that we do not mark built-in content as faulty for not including the 'source' textures, since built-in content intentionally only includes the .texture files.
There is also no restriction on you, a content creator, making content to older trainz-build numbers if you so chose. The limitation is that you would need to either update the trainz-build number to upload to the Download Station, or the asset would be placed into the repair queue for the Content Repair Group to update.
Regards
Removing it from the DLS isn't the only way that it can be made unavailable for download. Making it built-in or payware also means that it can't be downloaded. DLS items should not be built-in or payware, and where this has happened in the past they need to be deletable so that the DLS version is again available. And please don't say 'If it's built-in or payware it doesn't need to be downloaded': that excuse ignores the advantages that DLS has over DLC.
Similarly, 3rd party content hosted on other sites is NOT 'available for download' if it is included as a payware item, because the user cannot download the freeware item to overwrite the payware item. Again, payware needs to be deletable.
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Tony_Hilliam
Trainz Plus - enjoy Trainz from just 20 cents a da
I assume you mean having the source textures and editing the items?
Just so we're reading from the same page, can you please advise the different types of edits you do, and which is the most common situation.
Anything on the DLS can be downloaded by anyone and used in the game. It is freeware and it is editable. Depending on the licence, it might also be redistributable, with or without modification. DLC is either payware or built-in, cannot be edited and cannot be redistributed.
Common edits include:
Reskinning.
Fixing errors (including missing descriptions and icons).
Adjusting existing settings (smoke effects, sound, queues, camera positions, mesh position (eg, cars and roads), corona asset)
Adding simple functionality (roll, height adjust, products)
Adding extended functionality (auto numbering, taillights, LOD, smoke containers, scripting edits, load attachment points)
I am sure others can add to this list. One of the most annoying items that are unfixable for built-in and payware are bridges where the piles don't extend to the bottom of the river basin, such as <kuid2:430547:21000:4> YR Bridge Plate Deck 2 Track. This is an easy fix that any user ought to be able to do, but can't because it's built-in.
Tony_Hilliam
Trainz Plus - enjoy Trainz from just 20 cents a da
Thanks for the response. Further questions:
1. Do you then save the item with the same KUID? New revision of the old KUID? Save under your own KUID? Or does it depend?
2. How do you redistribute? Privately, upload to the DLS etc?
1. Do you then save the item with the same KUID? New revision of the old KUID? Save under your own KUID? Or does it depend?
2. How do you redistribute? Privately, upload to the DLS etc?
ZecMurphy
Community Assistant
Hi SailorDan
Assets that are marked as 'builtin' can have the DLS version installed as well, allowing you to edit the asset. I have done this a few times with various assets that I wanted to make changes to. Just tested here in TRS19, just to verify it does still work...
It does require you to have some experience with downloading files and using Content Manager, but it seems the main goal is to allow you to manipulate the content, so this shouldn't be an issue...
The first step is to locate the asset on the Download Station website ( http://dls.trainzportal.com/index.php ).
Now click on the 'Download Details' button, then click on 'Download FTP'.
Now import the downloaded cdp file into Trainz, and then submit the asset.
This will then install the 'DLS' version of the asset in the place of the built-in asset. It will, however, be marked as 'locally modified'.
You will then be able to edit the asset as you wish.
Note, this will not work for content marked as 'payware'.
Regards
Assets that are marked as 'builtin' can have the DLS version installed as well, allowing you to edit the asset. I have done this a few times with various assets that I wanted to make changes to. Just tested here in TRS19, just to verify it does still work...
It does require you to have some experience with downloading files and using Content Manager, but it seems the main goal is to allow you to manipulate the content, so this shouldn't be an issue...
The first step is to locate the asset on the Download Station website ( http://dls.trainzportal.com/index.php ).
Now click on the 'Download Details' button, then click on 'Download FTP'.
Now import the downloaded cdp file into Trainz, and then submit the asset.
This will then install the 'DLS' version of the asset in the place of the built-in asset. It will, however, be marked as 'locally modified'.
You will then be able to edit the asset as you wish.
Note, this will not work for content marked as 'payware'.
Regards
Tony_Hilliam
Trainz Plus - enjoy Trainz from just 20 cents a da
Note also that whilst it is possible, it is not recommended as editing built-in items will have the following consequences:
1. The item will not be optimised (so performance will suffer - one item won't be a problem, lots of items will be)
2. It breaks precaching
3. It breaks multiplayer
We suggest you clone assets where possible for editing.
Note that we're also going to be addressing all these issues with a comprehensive answer that will outline what we recommend and don't recommend.
1. The item will not be optimised (so performance will suffer - one item won't be a problem, lots of items will be)
2. It breaks precaching
3. It breaks multiplayer
We suggest you clone assets where possible for editing.
Note that we're also going to be addressing all these issues with a comprehensive answer that will outline what we recommend and don't recommend.
Do you mean for assets that aren't payware or built-in? Or are you asking about what is expected to occur in the future if these assets are no longer built-in or payware?
For DLS and 3rd party assets I use several strategies. If the change is minor and cannot affect functionality I save with the same KUID. This is suitable where it is used in an existing route, and nothing should change. There are many traincars that do not have a correct consist/list icon that fall into this category. The second option is to save with an existing KUID updated to a newer version. This has the advantage that if a DLS update ever appears it is usable with whatever improvements the original creator did, and might or might not require the re-application of the original fix. The third option is to save with a new KUID but obsolete the original using an obsolete table. This is used where the asset should be automatically replaced in an existing route, but the changes are more extensive: it is useful when the update should be clearly identified as different. The other option is a new KUID without obsoleting the original. This is used primarily for reskins, but also where changes are more extensive, where the purpose is to create a new asset.
Distribution is private where permitted. Where distribution is not permitted I distribute a log of the changes, on request. Some distributees alter the KUID to their own and upload to the DLS, but most don't bother. It is likely that a similar practice would be adopted for items that are payware or built-in, should it become possible.
Tony_Hilliam
Trainz Plus - enjoy Trainz from just 20 cents a da
Thanks again SailorDan. We're still working out various options and trying to ensure we capture all possibilities when addressing these things.
BuilderBob - regarding: "<kuid2:661281:100035:1> C&O 2-6-6-6 H8 - New River Mining Coal Run is installed by default. It is a session of <kuid2:453099:100037:20> C&O Hinton Division and includes <kuid:175455:100379> GBCX Cylindrical Hopper which is a freeware item from Jointed Rail. "
>>
We've worked out the process required to get into this situation and how to get out of it.
1. Install items from a 3rd party site (which lists them as modified in CM).
2. Install a N3V DLC item that also has that item (and in this case, it is marked Payware as it is not on the DLS).
3. Your modified item shows as faulty (since the program is expecting a payware item and you have a modified version installed)
The solution is to Open for Edit and Revert to Original. This will install the payware version. (How to edit that is a different issue, but it does resolve your faulty item).
How to resolve this longer term is a tricky one. We are actually in the process of working with JR to upload all their freeware to the DLS, so this particular case would be solved by our forthcoming changes (TBD), but for other 3rd party sites, we're going to have to get the content creators to either create a new version of those items or get them to upload them to the DLS.
The New River session is actually a DLC item (but probably you have it as part of the Platimum Edition). You cannot install a session without the route it depends upon, so definitely it shouldn't be optional in that case.
BuilderBob - regarding: "<kuid2:661281:100035:1> C&O 2-6-6-6 H8 - New River Mining Coal Run is installed by default. It is a session of <kuid2:453099:100037:20> C&O Hinton Division and includes <kuid:175455:100379> GBCX Cylindrical Hopper which is a freeware item from Jointed Rail. "
>>
We've worked out the process required to get into this situation and how to get out of it.
1. Install items from a 3rd party site (which lists them as modified in CM).
2. Install a N3V DLC item that also has that item (and in this case, it is marked Payware as it is not on the DLS).
3. Your modified item shows as faulty (since the program is expecting a payware item and you have a modified version installed)
The solution is to Open for Edit and Revert to Original. This will install the payware version. (How to edit that is a different issue, but it does resolve your faulty item).
How to resolve this longer term is a tricky one. We are actually in the process of working with JR to upload all their freeware to the DLS, so this particular case would be solved by our forthcoming changes (TBD), but for other 3rd party sites, we're going to have to get the content creators to either create a new version of those items or get them to upload them to the DLS.
The New River session is actually a DLC item (but probably you have it as part of the Platimum Edition). You cannot install a session without the route it depends upon, so definitely it shouldn't be optional in that case.
Tony... very very respectfully.... As a one being new to Trainz since Oct of last year... If I am expected to identify and execute "fixes" like this N3V needs to do some educating and documenting. New users would have no idea of what's wrong let alone know what the problem is (cause), and then above and beyond that, know how to fix it. I am expected to know these things as a new user?
Believe me when I say "I'm pulling for you" and believe me when I say that as I've read about issues such as this I've generally kept a positive attitude. However, with the complications seen here some basic clear and concise docs would be most welcome. You could perhaps even find talented people to volunteer to do them with your support. But having customers who've been Trainz'ing for years, yet not understand the differences and relationships between the DLS and DLC is troublesome.
I'm referring to simple, plain language docs, for example: "What you need to know before you join Gold or Silver programs." "What you need to know if you buy a regional edition only." etc etc etc. These docs should be simple but yet cover the appropriate Driver, Session, Route Builder, Scripter, (etc) "need to know" issues.
As someone once said (Hosea): My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: (Hosea 4:6)
Zec:
Thank you for the reply. My response as follows:
Really? I decided to run a test in Content Manager to see what content items were in my TRS19, including the free DLCs we had to install, but not on the DLS. It turned out that there were over 7,700 such items. I have to admit that even I was surprised at how just many there were. Here is the screenshot from my content manager of the test results so you can see for yourself:
In order to have a route included in your product you usually set forth a lot of conditions. Not using any content not on the DLS should be one of those conditions. We third party developers have no way in surveyor content tabs to know the difference between what is on the DLS and what is not, which means we might use an item that other users might not be able to download or access, and this is already happening. See the very first post in this thread that started it all.
When I upgrade routes from a old major version to a new major version, as I did recently with my CC&LE route I found that items had changed status without my being aware of it. An an example, <kuid2:124017:26043:3> YARN Bridge02 Support - INstalled, Payware. This item was not changed or added by me when I upgraded the route from T:ANE to TRS19. Personally I think Payware that cannot be used on any and all freeware routes should not be used in Trainz. I have always prided myself on developing routes that any user could depend on as not having missing dependencies they could not download from the DLS. TRS19 has made that a lot tougher and it keeps getting tougher with each new major release of Trainz. As a matter of personal policy I ensure that no matter how enticing a 3rd party content item from some place other then the DLS might be, I do not use it for this reason.
Then how do the over 7,700 items shown in my screenshot get updated if they are not on the DLS? That is the problem with your approach here. Items that are not on the DLS keep going from major version to major version and never getting updated which means they keep getting further and further out of date. I don't want to seem unreasonable here. We third party developers can help upgrade these items and share the development load, but only if they are on the DLS where they can be reached for upgrade, unless I am missing something here.
Bob
Footnote: Using content manager I found that there are over 4600 content items in TRS19, or the free DLCs we had to download, that are build 1.6 or below and really need to be updated.
Thank you for the reply. My response as follows:
Really? I decided to run a test in Content Manager to see what content items were in my TRS19, including the free DLCs we had to install, but not on the DLS. It turned out that there were over 7,700 such items. I have to admit that even I was surprised at how just many there were. Here is the screenshot from my content manager of the test results so you can see for yourself:
In order to have a route included in your product you usually set forth a lot of conditions. Not using any content not on the DLS should be one of those conditions. We third party developers have no way in surveyor content tabs to know the difference between what is on the DLS and what is not, which means we might use an item that other users might not be able to download or access, and this is already happening. See the very first post in this thread that started it all.
When I upgrade routes from a old major version to a new major version, as I did recently with my CC&LE route I found that items had changed status without my being aware of it. An an example, <kuid2:124017:26043:3> YARN Bridge02 Support - INstalled, Payware. This item was not changed or added by me when I upgraded the route from T:ANE to TRS19. Personally I think Payware that cannot be used on any and all freeware routes should not be used in Trainz. I have always prided myself on developing routes that any user could depend on as not having missing dependencies they could not download from the DLS. TRS19 has made that a lot tougher and it keeps getting tougher with each new major release of Trainz. As a matter of personal policy I ensure that no matter how enticing a 3rd party content item from some place other then the DLS might be, I do not use it for this reason.
Then how do the over 7,700 items shown in my screenshot get updated if they are not on the DLS? That is the problem with your approach here. Items that are not on the DLS keep going from major version to major version and never getting updated which means they keep getting further and further out of date. I don't want to seem unreasonable here. We third party developers can help upgrade these items and share the development load, but only if they are on the DLS where they can be reached for upgrade, unless I am missing something here.
Bob
Footnote: Using content manager I found that there are over 4600 content items in TRS19, or the free DLCs we had to download, that are build 1.6 or below and really need to be updated.
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Now with that list select all, then show asset versions. ;o)
Nothing can better ruin a hobby than to turn it into a business, unless it is having someone else turn your hobby into his or her business.
This development reminds me of a comment I heard when the US patent office, and others, allowed people to patent genes simply because they saw/identified them first, but had no idea of what they did.
“If you make a camera [Trainz] you own the camera. If you take/make a picture with the camera [a route] you own the picture. If you take a picture of the moon, the planets and the stars [the assets] do you own the universe?” Of course not!
Why all the machinations?
I think SailorDan has put it succinctly.
“…DLS items should not be built-in or payware, and where this has happened in the past they need to be deletable so that the DLS version is again available. And please don't say 'If it's built-in or payware it doesn't need to be downloaded': that excuse ignores the advantages that DLS has over DLC.
Similarly, 3rd party content hosted on other sites is NOT 'available for download' if it is included as a payware item, because the user cannot download the freeware item to overwrite the payware item. Again, payware needs to be deletable.”
The DLS, with its almost 500,000 assets, the vast majority of which have not been created by N3V and up until now have been freely available, is the heart of Trainz.
In my opinion it's okay to sell the program you have created. Its okay to sell route(s) you have created. It is not okay to sell assets you did not create.
This is an important issue.
Continued free access to DLS content, or not, will determine the future of Trainz.
Cayden
This development reminds me of a comment I heard when the US patent office, and others, allowed people to patent genes simply because they saw/identified them first, but had no idea of what they did.
“If you make a camera [Trainz] you own the camera. If you take/make a picture with the camera [a route] you own the picture. If you take a picture of the moon, the planets and the stars [the assets] do you own the universe?” Of course not!
Why all the machinations?
I think SailorDan has put it succinctly.
“…DLS items should not be built-in or payware, and where this has happened in the past they need to be deletable so that the DLS version is again available. And please don't say 'If it's built-in or payware it doesn't need to be downloaded': that excuse ignores the advantages that DLS has over DLC.
Similarly, 3rd party content hosted on other sites is NOT 'available for download' if it is included as a payware item, because the user cannot download the freeware item to overwrite the payware item. Again, payware needs to be deletable.”
The DLS, with its almost 500,000 assets, the vast majority of which have not been created by N3V and up until now have been freely available, is the heart of Trainz.
In my opinion it's okay to sell the program you have created. Its okay to sell route(s) you have created. It is not okay to sell assets you did not create.
This is an important issue.
Continued free access to DLS content, or not, will determine the future of Trainz.
Cayden
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Very, very interesting point of view. Many thanks for your clear words. Now I do understand several things a bit more. Hopefully some of your suggestions become thruth.
_______
Josef
Tony:
I think what we are asking here is not unreasonable. We just want to:
1. Ensure that the content we use on the freeware routes we develop for others to use is itself only freeware.
2. Ensure that the content we use on those freeware routes is available for download on the DLS and users don't have to try and hunt for it. Routes that contain content items not on the DLS should be blocked from uploading. If folks want to add payware or content from other then the DLS for their own personal use that is ok, but those routes should not end up on the DLS where they will confuse users and newbies who download them and then end up with missing content.
3. Ensure that all freeware content in use by Trainz is on the DLS where someone can upgrade it from time to time to keep up with new major Trainz releases.
4. Ensure Payware does not somehow end up by accident on our freeware routes. This has to be kept simple when you consider that the average freeware route may contains hundreds or even thousands of content items. It is just too impractical for us now to check each and every item for its pedigree. Perhaps color coding items that show up in the surveyor tabs might be the solution. Example: Green for freeware and red for Payware. This color coding should also be shown in Content Manager for the dependency list for the route and/or session. This would make it easy to spot those items that way.
Is this too much to ask of you all?
Bob
I think what we are asking here is not unreasonable. We just want to:
1. Ensure that the content we use on the freeware routes we develop for others to use is itself only freeware.
2. Ensure that the content we use on those freeware routes is available for download on the DLS and users don't have to try and hunt for it. Routes that contain content items not on the DLS should be blocked from uploading. If folks want to add payware or content from other then the DLS for their own personal use that is ok, but those routes should not end up on the DLS where they will confuse users and newbies who download them and then end up with missing content.
3. Ensure that all freeware content in use by Trainz is on the DLS where someone can upgrade it from time to time to keep up with new major Trainz releases.
4. Ensure Payware does not somehow end up by accident on our freeware routes. This has to be kept simple when you consider that the average freeware route may contains hundreds or even thousands of content items. It is just too impractical for us now to check each and every item for its pedigree. Perhaps color coding items that show up in the surveyor tabs might be the solution. Example: Green for freeware and red for Payware. This color coding should also be shown in Content Manager for the dependency list for the route and/or session. This would make it easy to spot those items that way.
Is this too much to ask of you all?
Bob
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Generally, the reason for the change to a built-in item is that it is used in an existing route but that it doesn't work properly or is missing some important functionality. It would be unusual that the edited item would not replace the built-in item, either directly or by obsoleting. Issues of optimization or pre-caching are less important than having the route look and work correctly. Users that are interested in multi-player already know that they can't make changes.