TRS19 Content delivery strategy causing major route development problems

The Problem: Built-in content is apparently being provided in the free DLCs that users are prompted to download and install by TRS19 rather then drawing on that already included in the base TRS19 program or requiring it be downloaded from the DLS.

The problem affects users even if they don't install the free DLC. It has gotten completely out of hand.

<kuid2:661281:100035:1> C&O 2-6-6-6 H8 - New River Mining Coal Run is installed by default. It is a session of <kuid2:453099:100037:20> C&O Hinton Division and includes <kuid:175455:100379> GBCX Cylindrical Hopper which is a freeware item from Jointed Rail. But if users don't also install the route (which SHOULD be optional) then the hopper (and others) are listed as 'Payware, Not Installed'. If the JR freeware is installed then it becomes listed as 'Payware, Modified, Faulty' and can't be used.

N3V claims that they aren't responsible if JR payware is subsequently released as freeware, but that's not what has happened here. The payware was never installed, but it is listed as 'Payware, Not installed', it can't be deleted and it can't be replaced!
 
The problem affects users even if they don't install the free DLC. It has gotten completely out of hand.

<kuid2:661281:100035:1> C&O 2-6-6-6 H8 - New River Mining Coal Run is installed by default. It is a session of <kuid2:453099:100037:20> C&O Hinton Division and includes <kuid:175455:100379> GBCX Cylindrical Hopper which is a freeware item from Jointed Rail. But if users don't also install the route (which SHOULD be optional) then the hopper (and others) are listed as 'Payware, Not Installed'. If the JR freeware is installed then it becomes listed as 'Payware, Modified, Faulty' and can't be used.

N3V claims that they aren't responsible if JR payware is subsequently released as freeware, but that's not what has happened here. The payware was never installed, but it is listed as 'Payware, Not installed', it can't be deleted and it can't be replaced!
The JR freeware one can be upversioned to override the payware.
Graeme
 
The JR freeware one can be upversioned to override the payware.
The JR ones get the status 'Payware, Modified, Faulty' and cannot be edited.

They could only be upversioned in another system (eg, TS12) and then imported - a process beyond the capacity of many users.
 
Take it no one has noticed the large amount of previously builtin / Payware assets being put on the DLS in the last month or so? Looks to me to be correcting the stuff marked as payware which shouldn't have been
This was the promise of 'immediate attention' on March 13th.

It seems to only apply to items where the DLC/builtin version was the same as the freeware version. In cases where the DLC/builtin version obsoleted the freeware (such as <kuid:5204:100065/66/68...>) nothing has happened.
 
I'm not sure I understand the difference between DLS and DLC. The payware part I get.

The bottom line for me is this seems to be an approach stop to buying anything new, TS19 included.

I think I'll just put any upgrade plans on hold till the dust settles.

-AL
 
I'm not sure I understand the difference between DLS and DLC. The payware part I get.

DLS is the download station. Anything on the DLS can be downloaded by anyone and used in the game. It is freeware and it is editable. Depending on the licence, it might also be redistributable, with or without modification.

DLC is downloadable content. It is either payware or built-in, cannot be edited and cannot be redistributed.

Route creators try to ensure that anything used in a route that is not part of the standard installation is DLS. In some cases it might also be third party freeware. If it's DLC then some users might not have it installed and won't be able to get it, so the route will be missing dependencies. Any uncertainty about what is installed by default or on the DLS (and therefore available to everyone) and what is additional content and possibly not available to everyone makes things difficult for the route creators.

Obviously, DLS items are much more valuable than DLC items. So the conversion of DLS items to DLC is very concerning. People who have created DLS items in order to make them freely available will likely be upset to see that they have been restricted to those who purchase DLC.
 
DLS is the download station. Anything on the DLS can be downloaded by anyone and used in the game. It is freeware and it is editable. Depending on the licence, it might also be redistributable, with or without modification.

DLC is downloadable content. It is either payware or built-in, cannot be edited and cannot be redistributed.

Route creators try to ensure that anything used in a route that is not part of the standard installation is DLS. In some cases it might also be third party freeware. If it's DLC then some users might not have it installed and won't be able to get it, so the route will be missing dependencies. Any uncertainty about what is installed by default or on the DLS (and therefore available to everyone) and what is additional content and possibly not available to everyone makes things difficult for the route creators.

Obviously, DLS items are much more valuable than DLC items. So the conversion of DLS items to DLC is very concerning. People who have created DLS items in order to make them freely available will likely be upset to see that they have been restricted to those who purchase DLC.

Indeed, of course NV3 need to turn a profit, but i have created around 500 cliff splines that can be used in Utah , Colorado and Wyoming , about 40 are already on the DLC but i'm darned if i'm going to add the latest and generally much more effective versions to the DLS if there's a chance that they are going to be subsumed as DLC items. I'll host them online instead. NV3 need to be careful to balance their need for income with that of providing a free range of items on the DLS, especially if their policies are going to result in fewer routes. its getting so the inconvenience will outweigh the pleasure of providing a free resource to fellow modellers, I'd rather pay a fee to a hosting service than spend days trying to sort out whether people can find and use the route assets or not.
 
NV3 need to be careful to balance their need for income with that of providing a free range of items on the DLS...
They don't make money out of turning your assets into payware - they make the money from the route that uses your assets, and that route can use freeware just as effectively as it uses payware. There is absolutely no reason for them to convert those DLS items to payware, which makes it very hard to understand why they do it.
 
Yes, they should be able to run a script that verifies DLS assets aren't marked as payware when they release a new route (or something)...
 
Yes, they should be able to run a script that verifies DLS assets aren't marked as payware when they release a new route (or something)...

Or perhaps stop running the script that marks them as payware...... ;o) I have a feeling it's automated.

Only thing that should be payware is the route and any custom made assets by it's creator that are not already available.
 
Yeah, I suspect they just make the entire package as 'payware', which, while simple to do, causes some unintended side effects....
 
Thanks Sailordan for the clarification. I now understand the problem.

What's the solution? I suspect it will work out in time, but meanwhile a
lot of folks are being subjected to what can be a real time consuming problem.

I also suspect the problem can be un-fixable in some cases. That is the real
problem. To work on a route, in some cases for months or years, and be
suddenly faced with an asset that becomes unusable can be quite
frustrating.

Editing assets for personal satisfaction has been one of Trainz strong points
since day one. Removing this feature can damage the brand.

Just my opinion. But as stated earlier, I'm on the sidelines for now.

-AL
 
I was about to click the TS19 buy button when I saw this thread but I stop, may be in six months this mess with available items would be resolved. Until then,...adios, ciao,farewell.....
 
Editing assets for personal satisfaction has been one of Trainz strong points since day one. Removing this feature can damage the brand.

That's the point that needs to be restated as loudly as possible. It's the product differentiation that generates the revenue, and it is being killed off.
 
I am quite disappointed to see N3V still hasn't bothered to post in this thread, even if only to say they are acknowledging this (game breaking ) issue. This attitude has made me reconsider continuing my gold subscription tbh. I might just buy the regional edition...

Ron
 
The lack of ANY acknowledgement of the concerned, experienced authors, is very strange. We know intuitively that N3V reads the forum. But why do they ignore customers.

A savvy customer of Web products always researches before purchasing. Blatant indifference by a vendor is a sure way to discourage new customers. In my view such an attitude is commercially suicidal and will eventually dry up, not only talented author participation, but new customers seeking a "railroad experience".

Silence only forces customers (current and future) to seek their own explanations. Few will be understanding of the position taken by N3V.
 
Unfortunately as I see it, the staff at N3V did it the old easy way. Instead of thinking ahead, they chose the good old simple upload all because that's so much easier than picking what should be included and what shouldn't. You mean to say they can CTRL- or Shift-click to select assets?

Understandably, there are things that need to be locked if they are going to do that, however, this should be done as the choice of the original author. The content creator uploading a route or an asset to N3V for inclusion in the DLC packages, should state what items or whether an item should be locked. The Cornish route we received around Christmas a year ago is a good example of this and it shows it can be done. This route, although distributed through the DLC system, is fully editable just like any other route we've installed in the past. Then on the contrary, there are going to be locomotives, passenger cars, or wagons that the authors don't want tampered with. This is author's right to do that if they wish and rightly so.

I also feel we're being ripped off because content that's for sale elsewhere, such as Jointed Rail's routes, locomotives, and other assets, should not be locked if they are installed as part of the DLC system. Why lock up these assets in this version and not the other? This is very deceiving for customers because they see a route for sale on N3V's website that's also available on Jointed Rail's website without knowing that the route can't be altered. Why should the customer then go through hoops to remedy this and then purchase something twice?

Yes we can edit the DLC routes in TRS19 now, but the routes built-in or DLC should be fully editable, and by fully editable I mean being able to merge the routes into others and not this you can edit, but not merge. Merging routes is a big part of the editing, and a big part of the Trainzing experience we have enjoyed since the program's inception, and for many of us since at least TRS2004 arrived on the scene. If there are conditions about uploading merged routes, well that should be stated, however, make merging available again.

It's because of these issues, I am very reluctant to purchase or download any newly released DLC including routes for fear that assets will be locked out, or break something already installed. I have an install now that has what were once fully editable assets from Jointed Rail now locked and no longer the assets I originally installed. There is no physical difference between the assets other than the version number to force the non-DLC version into obsolescence. I found this out the hard way with some textures I have used for years that have now become PBR-textures when they became built-ins. I didn't discover this until one day while running a route when I discovered buried track and jelly-donut innards all over my route. Instead of enjoying my driver's session, I spent hours looking for non-PBR replacement textures that were similar to the ones I had chosen before, however, no matter how close these textures are, they are not the same as the originals.
 
Just so this doesn't get further out of hand, we're aware of the thread and discussing an appropriate detailed response. We'll make a post outlining all the details when it is ready.

Meanwhile, please be assured there is no intention or desire to turn DLS content in DLC/payware content. ANy items that have ended up incorrectly tagged are being replaced with the correct status (and the vast majority are done).

We're also working out the best way to ensure it is easy for route builders to know which items can be used that can then be accessed by others. Note that this is not a TRS19 issue, it has been around for most of the lifetime of Trainz. The issue now is that there aren't one or two routes involved, but dozens or combinations (and hence the need to introduce systems to improve the process for both route builders and "general users".
 
Thanks Tony, I was pretty sure that's what all these updates of DLC assets that have been appearing on the DLS were doing.

Suggest a different colour for actual payware assets, ones that should be, when displaying kuids in surveyor would help?
 
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