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Thread: TRS19 Content delivery strategy causing major route development problems

  1. #1
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    Thumbs down TRS19 Content delivery strategy causing major route development problems

    I am a route developer who tries very hard to ensure to keep my routes are up to the latest major Trainz release standards. As part of this I also only use built-in or available from the DLS content items to ensure that no one has to hunt for content in order to be able to use my routes.

    I have recently been made aware of a major issue with the way N3V provides content that is causing problems for those who use my TRS19 routes such as my <kuid2:439337:102423:1> Cattaraugus Creek & Lake Erie 1950s - TRS19.

    The Problem: Built-in content is apparently being provided in the free DLCs that users are prompted to download and install by TRS19 rather then drawing on that already included in the base TRS19 program or requiring it be downloaded from the DLS. Not being aware of this I downloaded and installed all those free DLCs. The problem with this is that the content in these free DLCs then becomes indistinguishable from other TRS19 base content that is also shown as built-in or INstalled, Payware in the Content Manager.

    After I upgraded my CC&LE route and made it available, along with two sessions I developed, I started getting reports of missing content. I eventually tracked this down to content that was being only provided in the DLCs but was not being made available in either the base TRS19 program or available for download from the DLS.

    Here are some examples:

    <kuid2:68236:23278:2> Old Garage 2 - Built-In
    <kuid2:515942:100169:13> Cornish Mainline and Branches - TRS19
    <kuid2:154322:101483:23> ECML Kings Cross - Edinburgh

    <kuid2:453099:101630:51> Mountain Maple - 01 - INstalled, Payware
    <kuid2:57230:100074:13> Sebino Lake, Italy (1980s)

    <kuid2:124017:26043:3> YARN Bridge02 Support - INstalled, Payware
    <kuid2:453099:100037:20> C&O Hinton Division

    <kuid:661281:75013> Tree Broadleaf 02 Darker - INstalled, Payware
    <kuid2:154322:100063:15> ECML EDINBURGH - DUNDEE

    <kuid2:1942:37002:3> Fence_Corrugated_1942 - Built-In
    <kuid2:515942:100169:13> Cornish Mainline and Branches - TRS19
    <kuid2:154322:100063:15> ECML EDINBURGH - DUNDEE
    <kuid2:154322:101483:23> ECML Kings Cross - Edinburgh

    <kuid2:122860:100082:3> Roys_SLD_S1_8-1481 3D Seasons - INstalled, Payware
    <kuid2:122860:100436:27> Canadian Rocky Mountains - Golden, BC

    <kuid2:60238:37036:1> Road Divider - INstalled, Payware
    <kuid2:122860:100436:27> Canadian Rocky Mountains - Golden, BC
    <kuid2:154322:101483:23> ECML Kings Cross - Edinburgh

    <kuid2:1942:37001:2> Fence_Spiked_1942 - Built-In
    <kuid2:515942:100169:13> Cornish Mainline and Branches - TRS19
    <kuid2:154322:100063:15> ECML EDINBURGH - DUNDEE
    <kuid2:154322:101483:23> ECML Kings Cross - Edinburgh
    <kuid2:57230:100074:13> Sebino Lake, Italy (1980s)

    <kuid2:82763:1104:2> Fence 3 bar pebbles and rusty rails - Built-In
    <kuid2:515942:100169:13> Cornish Mainline and Branches - TRS19
    <kuid2:154322:100063:15> ECML EDINBURGH - DUNDEE
    <kuid2:154322:101483:23> ECML Kings Cross - Edinburgh

    <kuid2:9000:27014:1> Machine House 05 - INstalled, Payware
    <kuid2:154322:101483:23> ECML Kings Cross - Edinburgh

    <kuid2:60238:38212:1> Wire Gates - Built-In
    <kuid2:515942:100169:13> Cornish Mainline and Branches - TRS19
    <kuid2:154322:100063:15> ECML EDINBURGH - DUNDEE
    <kuid2:154322:101483:23> ECML Kings Cross - Edinburgh

    <kuid:661281:75012> Tree Broadleaf 01 Darker - INstalled, Payware
    <kuid2:154322:100063:15> ECML EDINBURGH - DUNDEE

    <kuid2:1942:37009:2> Fence_Chain_Link_1942 - Built-In
    <kuid2:515942:100169:13> Cornish Mainline and Branches - TRS19
    <kuid2:154322:100063:15> ECML EDINBURGH - DUNDEE
    <kuid2:154322:101483:23> ECML Kings Cross - Edinburgh
    <kuid2:57230:100074:13> Sebino Lake, Italy (1980s)

    Because of all of this I have been forced to revise my route requirements to: Minimum requirements are TRS19 with all hot fixes applied, all free DLCs downloaded and installed, and you must have your Shader quality set to ULTRA.

    Unfortunately, as pointed out by another user this doesn't help. Here is what he said: "That would prevent owners of the "North American Edition" to use them: most of built-in/payware assets in your example are from non-US routes..."

    I have also noticed that a lot of the DLC and base TRS19 built-in content ranges from build 1.2 to 2.9.

    If 3rd party freeware route development efforts such as mine are to continue remaining viable, N3V needs to revise it's content delivery strategy so that content is either built-in only in the base TRS19 program or available for download from the DLS and not dependent on download and installation of DLCs.

    My own personal opinion is that every item of content that is in the base TRS19 program or its DLCs should be made available for download from the DLS so that it is always available to users so that we 3rd party route developers do not have to be concerned about where it can be obtained. As the average route contains hundreds of content items it is impractical to try to track down the pedigree of each item that is being used on that route.

    N3V, this issue is really causing me support problems for my routes.

    Bottom line: Content needs to be either in the base TRS19 program or available for download from the DLS and not from separate DLCs.

    Bob
    Last edited by MSGSapper; May 21st, 2019 at 11:25 AM.
    Master Sergeant/E8, U.S. Army, Retired (1972-1993)

  2. #2
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    I hope you continue your outstanding work. The price of the full TS19 edition is about the cost of a tank of gas (I have a big tank in my F150). As an associate of mine once said:

    "That That Is Is".

  3. #3
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    I agree with you. Problem is that there is not a functional theme to the management of the product. Instead there is a constant overtone of marketing being the base strategy. The ease of development, implementation and use seem to become secondary to features.

    I tried downloading and had errors here are a few of them below. Looks like someone changed the "ground rules". Girders and turntable.

    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T1220: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1bd55) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T1220: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1c189) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T1220: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1c5c1) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T1220: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1c9f8) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T1220: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1ce26) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T1220: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1d258) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T1220: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1d68a) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T1220: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1dabc) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T1220: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1def7) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T1220: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1e339) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T1220: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1e769) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T1220: Mesh 13: Not suitable for vcache optimization
    ; <NULL> turntable/snow/turntable.fbx
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T7312: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1b0b1) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T7312: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1b4eb) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T7312: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1b921) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T7312: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1bd56) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T7312: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1c18b) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T7312: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1c5c3) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T7312: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1c9fa) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T7312: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1ce29) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T7312: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1d25c) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T7312: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1d68e) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T7312: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1dac0) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T7312: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1defb) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T7312: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1e33d) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T7312: FBX-DOM (TOK_KEY, offset 0x1e76d) shading mode not recognized: Phong
    ! <kuid:439337:103490> Warn, T7312: Mesh 13: Not suitable for vcache optimization
    Last edited by boleyd; May 21st, 2019 at 11:51 AM.
    Dick near Pittsburgh, Pa. i5-2500K 4.3ghz, 8gb memory, GTX1060 4gb video card

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by boleyd View Post
    I agree with you. Problem is that there is not a functional theme to the management of the product. Instead there is a constant overtone of marketing being the base strategy. The ease of development, implementation and use seem to become secondary to features.


    I suspect that the driver for this localization was needed cash flow. I can only speculate.

  5. #5
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    I have a bad feeling and I'm afraid................

  6. #6
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    I have had a bad feeling since the beginning of 2002

  7. #7
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    There's a strategy?

    The phong thing? I've seen that on installing but running a subsequent view errors and warnings it seems OK, so I'm ignoring it until told different.

    After the DLS date issue I did as suggested and ran a full database repair, that sorted out the date issues, however it seems to have unrepaired some stuff I'd fixed.........
    Malc


  8. #8
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    The problem for route builder is, what could be a standard base? TRS19 as full product? TRS19 without any regional edition? I thought I put all my money on full TRS19, so now I have the problem that users with regional editions have missing content when they get my routes. The transfer from TANE to TRS19 is not the biggest problem, since I use placeholder for DLC content. Sure this procedure cost me a week of work for one route. But now it is obsolete.

    I personally would be happy in the future with new releases of the game with a simple "Route Builder" Edition. Only the base, no further content, so only access to the DLS content. That would make a lot easier! Likewise, DLS content that is buildin should now also be added to the DLS.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by escd84 View Post
    The problem for route builder is, what could be a standard base? TRS19 as full product? TRS19 without any regional edition? I thought I put all my money on full TRS19, so now I have the problem that users with regional editions have missing content when they get my routes. The transfer from TANE to TRS19 is not the biggest problem, since I use placeholder for DLC content. Sure this procedure cost me a week of work for one route. But now it is obsolete.

    I personally would be happy in the future with new releases of the game with a simple "Route Builder" Edition. Only the base, no further content, so only access to the DLS content. That would make a lot easier! Likewise, DLS content that is buildin should now also be added to the DLS.
    Yep thats what we need, i'd happily spend MORE on that, a LOT more if it made my route building life easier.

    I'm just so fed up with all of this hoopla related to the DLS and payware etc, I really can't see myself ever releasing my Uintah route here as almost every person who does present a new route and who has tried their best to make it easy for users to use is getting problems with installing content .its as bad as installing new operating systems , to me , the effort to upgrade isn't worth it, I'm here to make routes , not to troubleshoot content , given that even wonderful routes usually don't get a lot of appreciation from the user base when uploaded its a wonder anyone bothers to submit new stuff as much as they do, as its followed by a litany of problems that seemingly take forever to solve . To cap it all, often when the issues are solved, another change is made and more issues rear their ugly heads. .... this is VERY annoying .
    WARNING! The Surgeon General has determined that the use of the simulator Trainz is highly addictive,

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitkin View Post
    I suspect that the driver for this localization was needed cash flow. I can only speculate.
    It doesn't help with cash flow. That's why it's so difficult to understand why they do it.

    There is no cash flow benefit from making items that can be freely downloaded from the DLS or elsewhere into payware or freeware. In fact, it damages the brand.

    When DLS items become freeware or payware they can no longer be edited, and deleting them is very difficult. Some content creators have indicated they will no longer contribute their items to the DLS if they are going to be distributed as built-in or payware. Several route creators have previously pointed out the issues of ensuring that people downloading their routes can get all the assets that they have used. I currently have "Modified, Faulty, Payware" which should be a JR download but every time I install it from the JR cdp it comes up with that status! There are many other examples of similar problems.

    Cleaning up the mess is going to take a lot of effort. That is effort that is not going into developing the product.

  11. #11
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    escd84 --

    Exactly. And I've been commenting about this before.

    For me the "base" install is the content that comes with the installation file, the one that we all downloaded from the MyTrainz / Product Downloads link. This does not include all the "free" DLC routes.

    It's why when I construct my little layouts I only use those base installation assets plus assets from the Download Station. That way I can be sure that we all have access to all the content that I use. Well, at least until N3V manage to do something to alter this, like introducing the regional editions.

    And yes, it's a mess.

    Phil

  12. #12

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    Total, utter mess. And it doesn't help that, other than a few exceptions, there is little to no way of distinguishing payware content from a DLC route when crafting your own or excluding same. What's needed is, i. for assets used in payware to have a prefix or suffix indicating that is the case, even if these have been purloined from the previously free version on the DLS. ii. A tickbox similar to the DTG TS editor where you can only use assets from payware DLC if you specifically tick the Provider/Product box in the RH flyout.
    Digging away in MSTS & TANE...

  13. #13
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    Just disable anything payware or built-in, in CM.

    Then you cannot accidentally use it in Surveyor.

    Half the stuff in my full TRS19 is disabled because it is of no interest to me.

    I know you route builder boys shouldn't have to do it.

    But it is a work around.

  14. #14
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    If you enable show kuids in Surveyor you get the kuid shown at bottom right of screen.
    White for DLS.
    Red for not on DLS as in third party or your own stuff not uploaded.
    And Yellow for builtin and payware.

    This helps but possibly there is a case for a fourth colour to seperate builtin from payware, say green?
    Malc


  15. #15
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    More than once I've looked over the config file of an asset that's payware and the original creator has written in their licence, 'Not to be distributed as payware'. Downloading a freeware asset from a third party site and it suddenly becoming uneditable payware the moment it's installed in Trainz is also hugely frustrating. My own assets on the DLS have 'Fair use, - not to be sold as payware or bundled with payware' written in their licence, but I guess that means absolutely nothing to N3V should they suddenly decide they want to use something I've made.
    Narcolepsy is not napping.

    HP XW8400 Xeon, Dual E5320 quad core CPUs, 16GB RAM, 1Tb SAS Hard drive, Nvidia GTX 960, Win 7.

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