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Thread: TRS19 Content delivery strategy causing major route development problems

  1. #151
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    Does this have anything to do with this conversation:

    See quote below - From THIS THREAD

    Uninstalling and reinstalling would fix the issue, and how it got to this state is most likely moving stuff around manually (something we're trying to avoid with the introduction of the .tzarc format which is soon to be unleashed). -- Tony Hilliam
    WIN10 ASUS B450M-A/CSM, GTX 1060-6 Windforce
    TRS19 106618(plus), 108640 (beta), 109037 (beta)

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSGSapper View Post
    The problem here all along has been that when a route developer uses Surveyor to create a route there is no way to know that an item that is being added to the route is payware or something only available from a DLC. It is unreasonable to expect a route creator to have to go through many hundreds, or even thousands, of content items in the average a route to weed out the items not available on the DLS since they do not look any different in Surveyor then a normal DLS download item.

    There are only two possible solutions. These are:

    1. Everything must be on the DLS. That may not be possible however due to payware contractual issues.

    2. Color code item name green in both Surveyor tab lists and in CM route dependency lists so that it is easy for the route creator to know the items that are not available on the DLS. This way we can replace them with items that are on the DLS.

    Bob
    A fairly easy option would be to add the following filters to the 'search filter' tool in Surveyor:

    Filter 1: On Download Station = True
    Filter 2: OR
    Filter 3: Built-in
    Filter 4: AND
    Filter 5: On Download Station True

    This will then display only content that is built-in and on the DLS, or is simply from the DLS. Actually, you can probably simplify to just 'on Download Station' = 'True' and it should show the same assets.

    Anything else will be excluded from the content lists. You can save filters in the content search filter panel, so you can easily apply this filter as desired.

    This issue is specifically concerned with updates to DLS content that has been provided to us (or that we have had to update in-house in some cases) to package the DLC pack. Normally we will put these updates onto the DLS, or request the creator of the asset to upload an update, however in some cases this may be missed. In those cases, we will try to get the update released onto the DLS as soon as possible.


    However content that is provided to us that is NOT already on the DLS will not be placed onto the DLS by us. This content may be exclusive to the DLC pack, or it may be 'freeware' from a 3rd party website that they have included in their DLC pack. In this case, you would either need to find the source of the asset, or have the DLC pack installed; we generally cannot put this content onto the DLS, only the original creator can do this.

    In regards to packaging all assets into the DLC pack, this is done to ensure that players see a streamlined, easy, installation system. We do not intend to make players download a DLC pack, then have to hunt for dependencies (including the DLS) to try to install their DLC packs. We have made a number of improvements to the handling/packaging of DLC packs, via the new TCCP system, which should hopefully improve the handling of dependencies a lot more as well, however as it is still new it may take a little time to see how things go when larger DLC packs are processed through it

    Regards
    Zec Murphy

    Customer Support Rep
    N3V Games (Auran)

    *Please do not use Private Messages for support. Support can only be provided via the helpdesk, or via the forums.

  3. #153
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    @ZecMurphy - just curious on how it goes for the uploads of those few items that were updates to dls items? (Please see post #138)

    For the remaining dlc only assets, the first two are just textures. How do I go about replacing/removing those textures?

    Thanks
    Walter
    Last edited by whamm0; August 3rd, 2020 at 10:56 AM.

  4. #154
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    If you turn on show kuids in surveyor items not on the DLS as in third party or your own creations not yet uploaded appear in Red.
    Malc


  5. #155
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    I've just waded through this thread and even at this point there does not appear to be a solution. It appears that the issue is that N3V want to protect the content used in DLC from changes, and route creators want to have continued free access to that content. I can see the logic of both sides and I suggest that it could be possible for N3V and Content creators to get what they want,

    It would require the creation of an "locking" key character which is added to the kuid of all content used for a DLC route. This would effectively guarantee the safety of DLS used content while still allowing use and updating of the original item. I suggest that this could be achieved by modification of the current process used for locking DLS items.

    It could also be used if a DLC author wanted to limit the item to use of his content by uploading his content using the locking key added to the KUID.

    Just a thought.

    Peter
    I5-6 Core CPU. 1070-Ti video card, 16GB memory

  6. #156
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    Hi All
    We are still working on this, but the good news is that I have confirmed what assets are available from the DLS. Unfortunately the following reported assets are non DLS assets, and as such would require the relevant DLC pack(s) to be able to install them (unless available from another source):

    <kuid:57230:21755> WP12 rock05
    <kuid2:82412:23043:1> TUME-23043-Scrap-Metal
    <kuid:661281:75013> Tree Broadleaf 02 Darker
    <kuid:661281:75012> Tree Broadleaf 01 Darker
    <kuid:661281:85139> PBR TS09 55 Asphalt
    <kuid2:57230:21660:1> Donner P12 GreenRock10
    <kuid2:122860:100323:2> (TS12) RockCliff Ground seasonal
    <kuid2:565830:100115:1> (TS12) MossyRock Ground

    Unfortunately it will take some time to organize the other assets to be uploaded to the DLS.

    In regards to usage of assets, there are no restrictions of using assets included in DLC packs. As it has always been with payware for Trainz, if you use an asset that is exclusive to a DLC pack or payware pack in a route, then anyone downloading that route would need to purchase the relevant DLC pack or payware pack.


    Content from the DLS is still DLS content, however in a few cases updates need to be made internally to fix issues with those DLS assets. We try to upload these as soon as possible, however in some cases they may be forgotten by the time they are confirmed to be fixed/working. In this case, once we the specific assets have been reported and we have verified they are DLS asset updates, we will get them uploaded ASAP.

    Regards
    Zec Murphy

    Customer Support Rep
    N3V Games (Auran)

    *Please do not use Private Messages for support. Support can only be provided via the helpdesk, or via the forums.

  7. #157

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    Peter as far as I am aware the asset is only locked for that version which comes with the DLC package. If you update that asset and it has a higher version number on the DLS the DLC one becomes obsolete. Over time even those DLC assets will become out of date as Trainz moves forward.

    There are some assets that show as unknown and if you look at asset versions the latest shows unknown. In some cases if you select the unknown asset and use download this version it will download.
    Last edited by stagecoach; August 4th, 2020 at 03:55 AM.

  8. #158
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    I'm not a route maker so this problem doesn't affect me but i see this:-.

    Route builders want to keep content unlocked, and N3V want to lock the content to prevent changes that will affect the payware route.

    It seemed to me that there could be a method that makes the content hidden from being listed in the editor, while still allow use for the original to be used and updated.

    So:-

    If Original content is used for for a payware route a process like this would solve the problem of locked content required by NV3 used for It would also allow the creation of content where the content creator wants to sell the content separately forms route.. The process would be something like this:-

    An item is run through the current process, which currently locks it as payware but instead of locking, a marker of some type is added to the KUID or the KUID is altered by the addition of a hidden symbol. When the route is accepted, I suggest that it is run through a process that adds the locking key to copies of the original route content. The end result is that the user will have complete access to all the original content but the normal user is not able to access and change any content uploaded with the route, while the original content is still open for normal use.

    This is all 'off the cuff'. It seems that as the original content is locked which has required internal changes to add the locking code, a. A bit of positive thinking about this will solve the problem. The locking change only happens when a payware route goes through the final 'packaging' process.

    As I see it, something like this would 'preserve' all the original content without preventing it's use elsewhere. I thinks most of this process already exists, and could be modified.

    I'm old and tired so i hope this all makes sense. My coding days are long gone but I suggest that this would not be too difficult. Perhaps someone could create a flow chart.

    Peter
    I5-6 Core CPU. 1070-Ti video card, 16GB memory

  9. #159
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    Default A real mess!

    Quote Originally Posted by ZecMurphy View Post
    Hi All
    We are still working on this, but the good news is that I have confirmed what assets are available from the DLS. Unfortunately the following reported assets are non DLS assets, and as such would require the relevant DLC pack(s) to be able to install them (unless available from another source):

    <kuid:57230:21755> WP12 rock05
    <kuid2:82412:23043:1> TUME-23043-Scrap-Metal
    <kuid:661281:75013> Tree Broadleaf 02 Darker
    <kuid:661281:75012> Tree Broadleaf 01 Darker
    <kuid:661281:85139> PBR TS09 55 Asphalt
    <kuid2:57230:21660:1> Donner P12 GreenRock10
    <kuid2:122860:100323:2> (TS12) RockCliff Ground seasonal
    <kuid2:565830:100115:1> (TS12) MossyRock Ground

    Unfortunately it will take some time to organize the other assets to be uploaded to the DLS.

    In regards to usage of assets, there are no restrictions of using assets included in DLC packs. As it has always been with payware for Trainz, if you use an asset that is exclusive to a DLC pack or payware pack in a route, then anyone downloading that route would need to purchase the relevant DLC pack or payware pack.


    Content from the DLS is still DLS content, however in a few cases updates need to be made internally to fix issues with those DLS assets. We try to upload these as soon as possible, however in some cases they may be forgotten by the time they are confirmed to be fixed/working. In this case, once we the specific assets have been reported and we have verified they are DLS asset updates, we will get them uploaded ASAP.

    Regards
    This is getting real confusing. I have 21 assets from the Oyster Bay Compatible Edition that list as “unknown”. Five are not available on the DLS. I get that, and a couple I have no idea why they are not there. But there are 14 that are on the DLS but with lower KUID numbers. Four of these are even TRS19 compatible. But for all fourteen someone has created new copies with higher version numbers, which are not on the DLS. So these, the bulk of my missing assets are no longer available to me for TRS19 routes I might download (e.g., Oyster Bay) or routes I might create. If it were a T:ANE route I was downloading or creating all 14 would be available to me.

    And sadly there is no way I can fix this.

    Cayden



  10. #160

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    If you have a lower version on the DLS download it and then in the route delete missing assets. This should delete the higher kuid number but still retain the asset. I did it awhile ago with some assets and it worked for me.
    Those missing assets will be found in one of the free routes on the DLC. C & O Hinton and Cornish Mainline are two routs that contain some of those assets.

  11. #161
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    Stagecoach

    If that works it means that it is possible for some malicious bright spark to upload content using that KUID with totally different contents and and a higher build, It seems to me that this would stuff-up the payware route . My proposal would make that impossible as the item would no longer be accessible, and at the same time solve the problem of route payware-locked content. What i propose should take about a day to code and it only involve N3V inhouse and does not affect current content. What you suggest only applies to your route, my suggestion can be applied to all payware routes and can be applied retro-effectively by N3V.

    Peter
    I5-6 Core CPU. 1070-Ti video card, 16GB memory

  12. #162
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    Peter,

    Would adding the permit listing container to the assets work? This will remove the assets from being listed in Content Manager and in Surveyor.

    privileges
    {
    permit-listing 0
    }
    The switch is binary. The zero means do not list.

    The onus is now on N3V and the original author to block assets from listing. This can be done simply by opening the content for edit and using a search and update program such as Search and Replace Master to insert the container within the assets as shown.

    To unlock the assets, the original author, or N3V for that matter, can do the opposite with a one instead of a zero.

    This will effectively prevent the asset from being used by anyone else since it's not listed anywhere. Being in a package and referenced on the fly, the asset can't be tampered with and listed by the end user.
    Last edited by JCitron; August 5th, 2020 at 09:10 AM.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
    TRS2019/Trainz-PLUS: 106618

  13. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by narrowgauge View Post
    Stagecoach

    If that works it means that it is possible for some malicious bright spark to upload content using that KUID with totally different contents and and a higher build, It seems to me that this would stuff-up the payware route . My proposal would make that impossible as the item would no longer be accessible, and at the same time solve the problem of route payware-locked content. What i propose should take about a day to code and it only involve N3V inhouse and does not affect current content. What you suggest only applies to your route, my suggestion can be applied to all payware routes and can be applied retro-effectively by N3V.

    Peter
    The content can only be updated by the creator of the kuid not someone else. You cant just change content for your own and upload it with someone else's kuid. DLC content will become out of date as trainz gets more and more feature updates. Trainz is already going to change some things in the future that could effect content in a payware route. The creator of that content will need to update it and that is by a higher version number. That DLC content with a lower version number on the DLS will get updated at some point on the DLS and will obsolete the payware version in order for that content to keep working. We are not talking about content created for a DLC route but DLS content that is used in the route.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by stagecoach View Post
    The content can only be updated by the creator of the kuid not someone else. You cant just change content for your own and upload it with someone else's kuid. DLC content will become out of date as trainz gets more and more feature updates. Trainz is already going to change some things in the future that could effect content in a payware route. The creator of that content will need to update it and that is by a higher version number. That DLC content with a lower version number on the DLS will get updated at some point on the DLS and will obsolete the payware version in order for that content to keep working. We are not talking about content created for a DLC route but DLS content that is used in the route.
    Now that’s a though. I wonder how many of these authors are available to update their content to a version number equal to or higher than the DLC content. Probably vendel, rmm, tume and maybe maddy25 and shorline2. If they updated their content that would account for 11 out of the 15.

    Cayden



  15. #165
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    Let me get something straight.

    It is my strong impression from reading the forum posts, that the current system causes problems when a creator's content is locked by it's use in a payware route. N3V must have a valid reason for locking the content, otherwise they would not do it. In a post above, a method of overcoming this is explained, which means that something can be done that N3V has tried to prevent and and this is obviously not well known, if it was easy and well known we would not be discussing it here.

    The process I suggested will securely lock content used in a payware route without affecting that same content's use in route creation. It leaves the content open for use and changes while preventing change to that content when used in a payware route. I also believe that it would provide protection when content is used that the creator would like to keep 'off the market'

    I have no axe to grind so I'm outa' here.

    Peter
    Last edited by narrowgauge; August 5th, 2020 at 08:51 PM.
    I5-6 Core CPU. 1070-Ti video card, 16GB memory

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