Would it be fair to say!

For those of us old enough to remember going into a store, browsing and choosing PC software to buy, or more precisely buying a license to use that software. I now get the feeling that I am just simply paying to download a take away menu, with a couple of free suggestive starters thrown in. I understand that I may sound like a dinosaur but I am very saddened by the direction software studios are taking, not just NV3 but all of them.
Thanks for all the input below, I guess I am just scared of where we go next, that's all. I think about the music industry that started out with vinyl, then moved to magnetic tape, then to CD's, then back to vinyl it seems? With my fingers crossed, I hope to see PC game stores reappear on the high street, but I will not be holding my breathe!

Best wishes all, Jake

Is completely fair, unfortunately.


p.s. Register your Trainz version as soon as possible.

I notice that Apple have just announced their new gaming platform, based on an online streaming subscription service. As a "retail dinosaur" myself, I do find it sad but inevitable as "bricks and mortar" retail outlets are shrinking and virtual retail is growing. I still believe that shopping is a social activity and being able to feel the product in your hands before you buy is still important to me, even if it is just a card with a license and product number.

Having said that, my software purchases are now few and far between. Trainz releases and protection (AV etc) have been my only ones in recent years with AV my only subscription purchase. All my other installed software is freeware such as LibreOffice, GIMP, Firefox, Thunderbird - all online. Office 2013 was my last non-Trainz purchase.

Most of my software tools/products are now subscription based and nearly all are way more expensive than a Trainz subscription. Trainz software is actually the cheapest part of this hobby for me. For subscriptions you get some product support and free upgrades and patches.

Retail has gone on-line and I think future shopping centres/malls/etc will consist only of coffee shops filled with crusty old folk like me.

BrakemanJake said:

For those of us old enough to remember going into a store, browsing and choosing PC software to buy, or more precisely buying a license to use that software. I now get the feeling that I am just simply paying to download a take away menu, with a couple of free suggestive starters thrown in. I understand that I may sound like a dinosaur but I am very saddened by the direction software studios are taking, not just NV3 but all of them.

Click to expand...

But of the twenty five dollars you spent only five got back to N3V. The software you download and the software on the DVD are more or less the same the only difference is the version on the DVD could be a year of date the download will have the latest bugs in it. Go mad and register your software.

Cheerio John

I now get the feeling that I am just simply paying to download a take away menu, with a couple of free suggestive starters thrown in.

Click to expand...

I beg to disagree - you get a big feed with the initial download before you can CHOOSE to dip into the take away menu, plus there's a huge FREE menu available as well.

On that take away menu, there are over 100 items, but do you need to order them all, or just the dishes you like?

Let's look at the alternative options for Trainz:

1. Buy the game with 6 routes and over 40 sessions, plus 18,000 or so scenery items, locos etc for $70. Ignore the menu of 100+ DLC items that are available. Ignore the menu of ~500,000 free items available.

2. Subscribe and get pretty much the whole list above for $14.99 a month

3. We release the game for $2,000 and include all the DLC content (I doubt that would be popular with the users)

4. We release the game for $70 and include all the DLC content (I doubt that would be popular with the content creators).

Many stores and even shopping malls go out of business. We will have to buy almost everything from online stores like Amazon.

pcas1986 said:

-snip-
Retail has gone on-line and I think future shopping centres/malls/etc will consist only of coffee shops filled with crusty old folk like me.

Click to expand...

Ha.. I'm a 66 year old "crusty" and last thing I'd want to do is go to a shopping mall and sit in a coffee shop with all those people taking selfies and texting like crazy... I buy almost everything online.

I remember the days of boxed software. Here was this large box but when opened all it had in it was a floppy disk, the little 3.5 hard disk, then.......

In short... I love downloading purchased software - instant gratification. But I don't care for subsciption based unless it saves a lot of money and you get to keep what you have... (Remember paper magazines? You subscribed but you could keep them if you un-subscribed. Ha! "Subscription" these days really means "you get to use it for a month. "

I purchased TRS19 outright and I couldn't be happier. I can Drive, I can create a session, I can create a route, I can setup a dispatching session.... and I have not even begin to get into creating individual assets and such. That's a lot to do for the money. I've spent many hours Trainz'in and I've only scratched the surface.

My 'end of route Terminus' is T-ANE. The enticement of "over 500,000 items of free content" does not compute.
In reality, how many of those 500,000+ items are worthy of a TRS19 subscription? A very small percentage I would imagine.

1611mac said:

Ha.. I'm a 66 year old "crusty" and last thing I'd want to do is go to a shopping mall and sit in a coffee shop with all those people taking selfies and texting like crazy...

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I'm a bit crustier than you and I did go to our local mall today to buy groceries and have a coffee. Most of the coffee clientele were older than me and don't use cellphones because they can't read them. There is a games store there that does sell gaming software but not much for PCs these days.

1611mac said:

... and I have not even begin to get into creating individual assets and such. That's a lot to do for the money. I've spent many hours Trainz'in and I've only scratched the surface.

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Best you don't as it is highly addictive. It's also a lot of fun in a perverse sort of way. :hehe:

If and when N3V bring out a boxed TRS19 I will buy one anyway. Some of us like to have a set.

CRO said:

...
In reality, how many of those 500,000+ items are worthy of a TRS19 subscription? A very small percentage I would imagine.

Click to expand...

I'd say a significant percentage although there are lots that are showing their age.

TRS19 and PBR textures will eventually produce assets that will look stunning compared to, say, TS04 vintage. But it takes time and making such assets is a whole lot harder than it used to be. Creators are still trying to catch up with TANE.

Of the 500,000+ assets I have nearly 150,000 installed and the vast majority are older assets. I very happy with all of them. (although now that I think about it perhaps a quarter of those come from third party providers)

Tony_Hilliam said:

[/COLOR]I beg to disagree - you get a big feed with the initial download before you can CHOOSE to dip into the take away menu, plus there's a huge FREE menu available as well.

On that take away menu, there are over 100 items, but do you need to order them all, or just the dishes you like?

Let's look at the alternative options for Trainz:

1. Buy the game with 6 routes and over 40 sessions, plus 18,000 or so scenery items, locos etc for $70. Ignore the menu of 100+ DLC items that are available. Ignore the menu of ~500,000 free items available.

2. Subscribe and get pretty much the whole list above for $14.99 a month

3. We release the game for $2,000 and include all the DLC content (I doubt that would be popular with the users)

4. We release the game for $70 and include all the DLC content (I doubt that would be popular with the content creators).

Click to expand...

Option 2 is pretty much what the non subscription model is apart from we have access to the DLS free stuff and isn't a problem for those who create stuff for free for the DLS, some of which is better or as good as the DLC but at no cost which incidentlally is also helping Trainz ;o)

Define content Creators? as much of it's done by the community for free via the DLS and in some cases to a higher standard.

When you create your own stuff and the DLC can't really be used in freeware DLS routes without creating the dreaded missing dependencies issue, a subscription doesn't really have any benefits, especially if you have already purchased the $70 version.

$70 for software that will last say 4 years, seems to be a lot more attractive than paying $179.88 a year, totalling $719.52 for the same period when you haven't needed any of the "Free DLC" If you are a DLC collector then yes it's probably good value, if not or only buy the occasional DLC then put bluntly it isn't.
It's not about not wanting to support Trainz, it's about having the correct incentive to do so, freebies is not in my opinion is not for those of us who don't need the extras.

Personally I have no objection to paying full price for any UK DLC that might become available, such as the stuck in limbo TANE version of the PLL Route!

I'll go back to sleep now......

Well said, Malc!

On the original topic, I too miss the days when you could just walk into a shop selling software and buy the latest game in a box, together with a sumptuous printed manual. Because it came on about a dozen floppy discs (!), the developer/publisher *had* to get it right, no internet or streaming service to deliver a patch. If something had gone wrong, a patch might turn up on a magazine cover disc a few months later - which is something else gone the way of the dodo, PC mag discs with demos of the game that allowed you to try it out before parting with non-refundable cash.

My biggest moan about software today is not the fact that you may have to download it in the first place although I totally agree browsing the shelves for a new game etc. was always fun but the fact that even when I have made my purchase I am then obliged to have access to the Internet to be able to use it. This perhaps should not be considered an issue as it could be argued the majority have access to the Internet anyway today but while this may, or may not, be the case it is also true that the majority of computers are running an OS other than the latest Windows/Mac leaving them more vulnerable to malware/computer virus attack etc. than really necessary, let alone any additional cast, inconvenience, the ability to fully access the software when away from home, and so forth.

Pricing has always been a topic for heated debate particularly between downloaded and media copy and between what should or should not be included in any price. Only a few years ago I purchased desk top publisher software and separately a set of twelve DVD's of clip art and photographs to accompany it. Today I would use a free DTP and likely download the clip art etc. but that is assuming I have that critical access to the Internet.

I can purchase Trainz (even TRS2019 at some point) on DVD but can I really enjoy it without having access to the Internet, I suggest not. Peter

(Of cause even having my gripe I'm obliged to use the Internet, but then without the need to use the Internet I would not have had the gripe in the first place, well not this one anyway.)

Vern said:

On the original topic, I too miss the days when you could just walk into a shop selling software and buy the latest game in a box, together with a sumptuous printed manual. Because it came on about a dozen floppy discs (!), the developer/publisher *had* to get it right, no internet or streaming service to deliver a patch. If something had gone wrong, a patch might turn up on a magazine cover disc a few months later - which is something else gone the way of the dodo, PC mag discs with demos of the game that allowed you to try it out before parting with non-refundable cash.

Click to expand...

Yes, there is something about holding the box and feeling the weight of it. I have many old pc games in their cardboard boxes in my collection, some for example "Ultima Underworld, Kingsquest, Overlord, Fallout, Leisure suit Larry, Doom". Many boxes generally are heavy weight because of the thick manual, number of floppy disks (5 1/4 and 3.5 inch) and a couple of games have cloth maps, a small figurine. It was fun seeing what came with the disks when finding old game boxes in second hand shops. Unfortunately it is rare to find them in the shops now and need to go online.

I will get the boxed TRS19 to add to my collection of Trainz too. Wonder if it will have a "little" surprise token in the box too (loco model)

clam1952 said:

... a subscription doesn't really have any benefits, especially if you have already purchased the $70 version.

$70 for software that will last say 4 years, seems to be a lot more attractive than paying $179.88 a year, totalling $719.52 for the same period when you haven't needed any of the "Free DLC" If you are a DLC collector then yes it's probably good value, if not or only buy the occasional DLC then put bluntly it isn't.
It's not about not wanting to support Trainz, it's about having the correct incentive to do so, freebies is not in my opinion is not for those of us who don't need the extras.

Click to expand...

That's one valid point of view. Others have posted in these forums with opposing but equally valid points of view. Every Trainz user is different with different requirements and interests. For the record I purchased the $70 version outright, do not have a subscription and have very little DLC so I would fit into Malcs "its not good value" category but there are many posters in these forums who are more than happy with their subscription purchases.

I am glad that N3V, unlike some others, have offered users the choice.

pware said:

I am glad that N3V, unlike some others, have offered users the choice.

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As far as I'm concerned, you have hit the nail on the head! "Choice" It's all about choice. As long as N3V continues to offer the community the choice of either buying the product outright, (Tane - TRS2019 - TRS2021) for $70US, or choosing one of the two subscription options, (which works out dearer in the long run, but includes lots of bells & whistles) then I'm happy.

Personally the subscription option doesn't work for me. I'm happy to purchase N3V's new downloadable versions of Trainz outright, happy to pay for a FCT annually and from time to time, purchase DLC content that interests me. On the other hand, clearly the subscription options work for some. Their choice!!! If it works for them, good luck to them. They are doing there part in helping to keep N3V's doors open. A win - win for everyone...

One can't blame N3V for trying to mix things up a little to stay in business. As the age old saying goes; "if you aren't keeping ahead of the eight ball, you'll probably be out of business in a year or two"...

As long as N3V continue to give the community both options, I'll stay a happy camper.

Cheers, Mac...