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Thread: Beware Silver Ticket Issue

  1. #31
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    We've already updated pre-signup FAQs and cancellation pages to make things clearly (but I suspect most people don't read the fine print, so ultimately the solution needs to be retrospective).

    We're investigating the best ways to make things easier to resolve after the event. (Your answer to my question above may shed light on anything I have missed).
    This statement could also be included in the FAQ as well, but having this upfront, in their face, so-to-speak, might be the only way you can do this so m
    aybe there should be a mandatory you must click here after reading the statement regarding the DLC content and the nature of the subscription, and if they do click it would then mean they read the information - just skipping through would be on the user then for not reading the sign-up agreement and the implications of using the DLC then canceling the subscription.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
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  2. #32
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    The content that is missing is DLS content (freeware) in routes installed before the subscription was started, that got overwritten by the payware when the subscription DLC was installed.
    Sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about the [rare] cases where this happens.

    This is separate issue being addressed by the content team. It is an accidental byproduct of items that are updated but not uploaded to the DLS prior to the packaging of the DLC content. As per your last point, I will ensure that these items are made available on the DLS as freeware.

    John - all the FAQs will be updated.

    Tony Hilliam

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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Hilliam View Post
    Sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about the [rare] cases where this happens.
    In November you quoted 18 items as affected, when the actual count was about 200. Now the count is over 400, but you are still calling it 'rare'. It is frequent enough to have created a significant response to this post. What number does it have to get to before you decide it needs immediate attention?

    Can you confirm that the content team is considering the case where:
    - Subscription DLC that is downloaded includes a DLS asset (either same version, or newer).
    - the user builds a route that includes this asset.
    - the user unsubscribes.

    because this scenario also leaves the user with a corrupted route.

  4. #34
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    Now that I understand the full implications, it is now getting immediate attention. If you can provide your list of 400 items that will accelerate the process, ideally in the format as below (by viewing in CM in a new window and copy/paste the kuid list). This is the current list of 144 known items:

    <kuid2:45324:28155:3>,<kuid2:45324:28154:3>,<kuid2 :404079:1020:3>,<kuid2:45324:28156:3>,<kuid2:9999: 50093:1>,<kuid:151575:500013>,<kuid:123250:100141> ,<kuid2:37581:1133:3>,<kuid2:45324:28157:3>,<kuid2 :9999:50096:1>,<kuid2:35412:28272:2>,<kuid:151575: 50800>,<kuid2:45324:85321:2>,<kuid2:45324:53001:3> ,<kuid2:37581:1219:3>,<kuid2:37581:1079:4>,<kuid2: 9999:50095:1>,<kuid2:45324:6703:3>,<kuid2:58377:50 013:1>,<kuid2:212731:500125:2>,<kuid2:45324:91101: 3>,<kuid2:37581:1157:3>,<kuid2:45324:645:4>,<kuid2 :37581:1221:3>,<kuid2:212731:500128:2>,<kuid:10104 6:100129>,<kuid2:101839:52001:4>,<kuid2:212731:500 129:2>,<kuid2:212731:500126:2>,<kuid2:212731:50012 7:2>,<kuid2:58377:50012:1>,<kuid2:212731:500124:2> ,<kuid2:9999:60058:1>,<kuid2:45324:50202:3>,<kuid2 :37581:1498:2>,<kuid2:212731:500122:2>,<kuid2:9999 :60059:1>,<kuid2:212731:500123:2>,<kuid2:82412:710 06005:2>,<kuid2:212731:500533:1>,<kuid2:23299:5300 2:7>,<kuid:103475:60100>,<kuid2:103475:60115:2>,<k uid2:45324:4307:3>,<kuid2:45324:28159:3>,<kuid2:45 324:100095:2>,<kuid2:45324:28005:1>,<kuid2:9999:60 057:1>,<kuid2:45324:28121:2>,<kuid2:9999:50094:1>, <kuid2:37581:1198:3>,<kuid2:9999:57006:2>,<kuid:27 6266:1198>,<kuid2:9999:50091:1>,<kuid2:276266:1067 :1>,<kuid2:276266:1037:2>,<kuid2:9999:50090:1>,<ku id2:101839:42:2>,<kuid2:45324:28158:3>,<kuid2:4532 4:28160:3>,<kuid2:9999:50097:1>,<kuid2:45324:6449: 2>,<kuid2:37581:1012:3>,<kuid2:45324:90100:3>,<kui d2:37581:1223:3>,<kuid2:506034:7879:1>,<kuid2:4616 2:100004:11>,<kuid2:9999:50025:2>,<kuid2:45324:644 1:4>,<kuid2:46162:1110:11>,<kuid2:45324:85320:2>,< kuid2:45324:91201:4>,<kuid2:9999:50024:2>,<kuid2:9 999:50092:1>,<kuid2:9999:60056:1>,<kuid2:9999:6006 0:1>,<kuid2:37581:1202:3>,<kuid2:9999:57010:1>,<ku id2:9999:57011:1>,<kuid:523:1972916>,<kuid2:9999:5 7012:1>,<kuid2:523:1972917:1>,<kuid2:9999:57013:1> ,<kuid2:523:1972918:1>,<kuid2:9999:57014:1>,<kuid2 :385819:160999:9>,<kuid2:45324:50032:3>,<kuid2:453 24:10115:2>,<kuid2:64577:50051:4>,<kuid2:37581:115 4:3>,<kuid2:45324:10113:2>,<kuid2:44090:52251:2>,< kuid:61119:70011>,<kuid2:37581:1155:3>,<kuid2:3758 1:1150:3>,<kuid2:37581:1074:3>,<kuid2:37581:30000: 3>,<kuid2:37581:1053:4>,<kuid2:37581:1218:3>,<kuid 2:68787:115047:18>,<kuid:381430:1873>,<kuid:381430 :1871>,<kuid2:35412:28431:2>,<kuid2:35412:28432:2> ,<kuid2:35412:28433:2>,<kuid2:35412:28434:3>,<kuid 2:35412:28435:2>,<kuid2:35412:28436:2>,<kuid2:3541 2:28437:2>,<kuid2:35412:28438:2>,<kuid2:35412:2843 9:2>,<kuid2:35412:28440:2>,<kuid2:35412:28441:2>,< kuid2:35412:28442:2>,<kuid2:35412:28443:2>,<kuid2: 35412:28264:2>,<kuid2:35412:28265:2>,<kuid2:35412: 28266:2>,<kuid2:35412:28267:2>,<kuid2:35412:28268: 2>,<kuid2:35412:28270:2>,<kuid2:35412:28274:2>,<ku id2:35412:28275:2>,<kuid2:35412:28276:2>,<kuid2:35 412:28277:2>,<kuid2:35412:28278:2>,<kuid2:35412:28 279:2>,<kuid:439337:101660>,<kuid:439337:101662>,< kuid2:46162:100006:11>,<kuid2:103475:60038:1>,<kui d:58377:51022>,<kuid2:45324:650:4>,<kuid2:45324:66 0:4>,<kuid2:45324:6702:4>,<kuid2:45324:6704:1>,<ku id2:45324:6803:3>,<kuid:123250:1123>,<kuid2:82412: 71006006:2>,<kuid2:82412:71006004:2>,<kuid2:82412: 3020903:3>,<kuid2:103475:54006:1>,<kuid:290243:500 02>,<kuid:276266:100222>

    And yes, if it is freeware, it should remain freeware.
    Last edited by Tony_Hilliam; March 13th, 2019 at 01:44 AM.
    Tony Hilliam

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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by SailorDan View Post
    In November you quoted 18 items as affected, when the actual count was about 200. Now the count is over 400, but you are still calling it 'rare'. It is frequent enough to have created a significant response to this post. What number does it have to get to before you decide it needs immediate attention?
    Well, it is getting "immediate attention" but the definition of "rare" is a very rubbery one. If it is a problem that you have never encountered then it could be classified as "rare" but if it is one that you have encountered then you could call it "overwhelmingly common".

    Looking at the figures, even if it is 1,000 assets that are affected out of, by my count a few minutes ago, 482,825 assets on the DLS and installed in TRS19 (not counting any DLC) then that would be 0.2% which would make it, if not "rare", then very "uncommon".

    My opinion only.
    A member of the "Party Machine". Now if only I could remember where they are holding the party!

  6. #36
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    As one new to Trainz and specifically TRS19 who is building his first route, making his first session, and has a Silver membership... I am trying to fully understand this issue.
    Is it as simple as this:

    Scenario:
    - I have downloaded free DLS scenery item "XYZ" (did not come with TRS19 or any of the six routes)
    - I have created a route/session that uses "XYZ"
    - From Silver membership I install route "AAA" which uses "XYZ"

    The Issue:
    "XYZ" is now marked in my install as Payway and if I discontinue Silver membership "XYZ" is "missing" and cannot be downloaded because its "un-purchased" payware?

    My intent is to understand precisely.... not to add confusion...
    Win 10: TRS19-100240: ASUS B450M-A/CSM, GTX 1060-6 Windforce, 1TB EVO SSD, 224GB system SSD
    (& iMac and MBP installs)


  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1611mac View Post
    As one new to Trainz and specifically TRS19 who is building his first route, making his first session, and has a Silver membership... I am trying to fully understand this issue.
    Is it as simple as this:

    Scenario:
    - I have downloaded free DLS scenery item "XYZ" (did not come with TRS19 or any of the six routes)
    - I have created a route/session that uses "XYZ"
    - From Silver membership I install route "AAA" which uses "XYZ"

    The Issue:
    "XYZ" is now marked in my install as Payway and if I discontinue Silver membership "XYZ" is "missing" and cannot be downloaded because its "un-purchased" payware?

    My intent is to understand precisely.... not to add confusion...

    Even though I am the OP on this thread I don't understand the technical issues. I hope SailorDan can better help you out. He seems to have a good grasp of the problem.

    I can speak to what happened to me though. Essentially I have two huge Routes that I have been working on for years. When I tried out the Silver Ticket membership I realized it didn't make sense for me to be in that program. So I unsubscribed. What happened is that some items that I had used on my Routes were made accessible via the Routes I was 'renting' through the Silver Ticket. There is currently no easy way to know in game if your items are Built-in, DLC, Payware or uploaded from the Down Load Station (DLS).

    When you unsubscribe from Silver Ticket the items that were made available become inactive (non active). In my case this corrupted my Routes in a couple of different ways. This is what the board is trying to get N3V to understand.

    This should not be a problem for new subscribers as long as they Don't Build Any Routes using items from their Silver Ticket membership. This is why the board feels that better notification is required for anyone signing up. And this is why I have strongly suggested to N3V that they have an easy in game color code for items that are Payware or DLC. Essentially anything that would prevent the game from being shared or used as Multi-player.

    My personal opinion is that the Silver/Gold Ticket programs are not a good investment in the long run for the customer. If you find that you like the Trainz game I would recommend an outright purchase as soon as possible.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by montycrafter View Post
    My personal opinion is that the Silver/Gold Ticket programs are not a good investment in the long run for the customer. If you find that you like the Trainz game I would recommend an outright purchase as soon as possible.
    Thanks for your comments and detail. Appreciate it much.

    I did a full purchase of TRS19 back in October. I don't do subscriptions for apps. Period. This was before I even knew about the memberships. I then thought Silver would be good for me just to obtain (mainly) routes at a seasonable cost. I didn't know about the quantity and quality of the freeware available.

    I'm re-thinking my silver membership..... doesn't sound wise in the current environment if you start creating things... It's best to decide now before one gets in too deep.

    I re-state my question:
    Scenario:
    - I have downloaded free DLS scenery item "XYZ" (did not come with TRS19 or any of the six routes)- I have created a route/session that uses "XYZ"
    - From Silver membership I install route "AAA" which uses "XYZ"


    The Issue:
    "XYZ" is now marked in my install as Payway and if I discontinue Silver membership "XYZ" is "missing" and cannot be downloaded because its "un-purchased" payware?
    Win 10: TRS19-100240: ASUS B450M-A/CSM, GTX 1060-6 Windforce, 1TB EVO SSD, 224GB system SSD
    (& iMac and MBP installs)


  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1611mac View Post
    Thanks for your comments and detail. Appreciate it much.

    I did a full purchase of TRS19 back in October. I don't do subscriptions for apps. Period. This was before I even knew about the memberships. I then thought Silver would be good for me just to obtain (mainly) routes at a seasonable cost. I didn't know about the quantity and quality of the freeware available.

    I'm re-thinking my silver membership..... doesn't sound wise in the current environment if you start creating things... It's best to decide now before one gets in too deep.

    I re-state my question:
    As Tony said they are going to remedy the issue with freeware assets being missing after the DLC has been removed because they were not on the DLS as well. This means that assets that are also on the DLS, will then be downloadable and then the only missing assets would be otherwise purchasble assets custom assets.

    So I would sit tight before doing anything and see what N3V comes up with first before jumping as this makes sense, and is something we've been saying has been a problem all along, but somehow wasn't understood.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
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  10. #40
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    Band-In-A-Box, another software package that have used since the '90s, has faced similar issues, for which PG Music provided a simple fix. Songs can be exchanged, but may be created with style or realtrack references that a person may not have purchased (add-ons). In this case, each style has an alias tag that references a built-in style closest to it. If the person does not have the style available, then the aliased style gets used.

    An alias tag in the config file for payware assets would allow TRS19, upon payware deletion through a dropped subscription or other means, to replace such deleted items by DLC indicated alias kuid.

    Just an idea worth considering.
    Joel

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1611mac View Post
    The Issue:
    "XYZ" is now marked in my install as Payway and if I discontinue Silver membership "XYZ" is "missing" and cannot be downloaded because its "un-purchased" payware?
    Yes - precisely. Also, prior to installing the DLC you could edit or clone "XYZ". After the DLC is installed you can no longer do that, and uninstalling the DLC does not restore the ability to edit or clone the asset. If you then go through the additional step of finding and downloading "XYZ" then you can again edit or clone it.

    If the version of "XYZ" that was included with the DLC was newer than the version you had originally downloaded and if you have re-saved your route in the meantime then your route will continue to show the asset as missing until you use an additional procedure (that the Help Desk has not documented) that involves creating a new asset.

    If you are making routes while the DLC is installed and you might want to upload the route to the DLS (or elsewhere) then you should avoid using anything marked as payware. Unfortunately, this means you avoid using some items which you would be able to use quite safely if they hadn't been marked as payware in the DLC, because they are actually freeware that is available for anyone to download.

    Please note: It is not Silver membership that is the issue, or even the subscription model as such. It is the downloadable content in purchased routes that creates the problem. This applies whether the route was purchased as part of a subscription (whether regular or trial) or simply as an add-on route. Of course, downloading purchased routes is a big part of a subscription such as Silver, so the two do tend to go together. But the problem is in the packaging of purchased routes, not in the subscription model. AFAIK the problem does not arise with routes purchased from third parties.
    Last edited by SailorDan; March 13th, 2019 at 04:15 PM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by cressjl View Post
    An alias tag in the config file for payware assets would allow TRS19, upon payware deletion through a dropped subscription or other means, to replace such deleted items by DLC indicated alias kuid.
    That potential solution is aimed at a slightly different problem - the problem of users creating routes that include payware items and discovering that other users, without those payware items, find that the routes are incomplete. There are ways of addressing that, including improved methods of identifying payware items, improved methods of vetting routes offered for distribution, or automatic substitution of an alternative asset.

    The current issue is that assets that should never have been payware in the first place are being installed on users' system as payware, are overwriting installed freeware items, and are remaining as 'Installed Payware (not active)' after the end of a subscription with no simple way to replace them with the original freeware item.

  13. #43
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    Thanks for that info and the explanations. I think I've got it!
    Win 10: TRS19-100240: ASUS B450M-A/CSM, GTX 1060-6 Windforce, 1TB EVO SSD, 224GB system SSD
    (& iMac and MBP installs)


  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Hilliam View Post
    If you can provide your list of 400 items that will accelerate the process, ideally in the format as below (by viewing in CM in a new window and copy/paste the kuid list).
    This is the list from one system, unfortunately with only a very small amount of payware ever installed, and some items repaired. I will try to obtain the others. I can't create a 'subtract' function so there may be some overlap.
    <kuid:-25:596>,<kuid2:661281:35127:4>,<kuid2:572325:80001 :1>,<kuid:447264:1>,<kuid2:45324:100105:1>,<kuid2: 218873:1097:6>,<kuid:447264:9>,<kuid2:527940:10009 6:2>,<kuid2:45324:100034:2>,<kuid:447264:2>,<kuid2 :138785:2:1>,<kuid:447264:10>,<kuid:103475:60102>, <kuid:447264:6>,<kuid2:404079:1030:2>,<kuid2:68787 :115047:18>,<kuid2:404079:1191:1>,<kuid2:103475:60 071:1>,<kuid2:385819:160999:9>,<kuid2:64577:50051: 4>,<kuid2:45324:100227:2>,<kuid2:45324:28163:2>,<k uid2:404079:1027:2>,<kuid2:328583:20404:1>,<kuid:3 00193:100145>,<kuid2:103021:1972770:1>,<kuid:27626 6:100002>,<kuid:276266:1261>,<kuid:276266:1202>,<k uid:242881:100310>,<kuid2:212731:500533:1>,<kuid2: 101839:52001:4>,<kuid2:212731:500129:2>,<kuid:1034 75:32>,<kuid2:212731:500128:2>,<kuid2:212731:50012 7:2>,<kuid2:212731:500126:2>,<kuid2:212731:500125: 2>,<kuid2:45324:100188:1>,<kuid2:212731:500124:2>, <kuid2:212731:500123:2>,<kuid2:212731:500122:2>,<k uid:61119:70011>,<kuid:151575:3003>,<kuid:151575:3 002>,<kuid:151575:3001>,<kuid:151575:2001>,<kuid:1 23250:1123>,<kuid:103475:60100>,<kuid:103475:60088 >,<kuid:103475:15032>,<kuid2:103475:54006:1>,<kuid 2:45324:100086:1>,<kuid2:101839:42:2>,<kuid2:64577 :54505:5>,<kuid2:46162:100006:11>,<kuid2:64577:545 02:5>,<kuid2:46162:100004:11>,<kuid2:45324:100197: 1>,<kuid2:45324:100185:1>,<kuid2:45324:100183:1>,< kuid2:45324:100165:1>,<kuid2:45324:100159:1>,<kuid 2:45324:100158:1>,<kuid2:45324:100112:2>,<kuid2:45 324:100046:1>,<kuid2:45324:28157:3>,<kuid2:45324:2 8156:3>,<kuid2:45324:28155:3>,<kuid2:45324:28154:3 >,<kuid2:44090:52251:2>,<kuid:38427:21014>,<kuid2: 37581:1172:3>,<kuid2:23299:53002:7>,<kuid:523:1972 1161>

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by pware View Post
    Looking at the figures, even if it is 1,000 assets that are affected out of, by my count a few minutes ago, 482,825 assets on the DLS and installed in TRS19 (not counting any DLC) then that would be 0.2% which would make it, if not "rare", then very "uncommon".
    That's not a reasonable way to look at the issue.

    Firstly, there has been a negative response from several content creators about how their freeware items became payware. This has the potential to affect the quality and volume of future contributions. While N3V gets the right to issue freeware as payware as part of the upload conditions, that should not include preventing people from downloading the freeware items at the end of their subscription.

    Secondly, the items involved tend to be the ones widely used in many existing routes. Route creators tend to stick with assets they know, and re-use portions of earlier rotes. Routes that are particularly affected are those that have previously been on the DLS as freeware, and were subsequently upgraded and issued as payware - the two versions share a large number of DLS assets. So the affected items are used in routes more often than the average numbers indicate.

    Thirdly, only one 'missing' asset in a route is sufficient to indicate a problem to the user that creates concern.

    Fourthly, and perhaps most importantly, anything that suggests that users are being 'trapped' into the subscription model is going to create a very negative reaction. If you have followed the threads on this topic that will be very evident.

    N3V has been aware of the issue since at least November, so the inaction is surprising.

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