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Thread: Beware Silver Ticket Issue

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SailorDan View Post
    The free trail subscription has expired so the payware cannot be downloaded. After the packages are deleted OP needs to find and download the freeware items that the payware overwrote.
    If the freeware is available, which in not all cases is it available. This leaves a hole that needs to be corrected with a lot less brute force and a background in information mangement to do so. In active payware will show up only if you search for it. If you don't have the asset in a route or anywhere it doesn't matter whether it's active or not.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
    TRS2019: 98592

  2. #17
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    IMO the only way to use this product is to purchase it. Not use it with a subscription. It would be like using AutoCAD with subscription objects building a bridge or such, then when the subscription wore out, the subscription 'bolts' would no longer be there, so how could you then test the bridge.

    Absolute malarky. who came up with this (you can add your own end to this sentence). Trainz Subscription is 'Breakware' beware.
    If it's not broke, don't fix it.


  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher824 View Post
    IMO the only way to use this product is to purchase it. Not use it with a subscription. It would be like using AutoCAD with subscription objects building a bridge or such, then when the subscription wore out, the subscription 'bolts' would no longer be there, so how could you then test the bridge.

    Absolute malarky. who came up with this (you can add your own end to this sentence). Trainz Subscription is 'Breakware' beware.

    Funny you should say that...

    Nikki

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikkiA View Post
    Funny you should say that...
    WOW, my AutoCAD is not a subscription. It is funny to see that even they have a subscription version. So I wonder if NASA is a buyer or a subscriber???
    If it's not broke, don't fix it.


  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher824 View Post
    It would be like using AutoCAD with subscription objects building a bridge or such, then when the subscription wore out, the subscription 'bolts' would no longer be there, so how could you then test the bridge.
    Not quite. It is actually the same as someone who already has Autocad trying out the free trial of the subscription version and then, after the free trial ends, discovering that a large number of their models and drawings (including some created many years before) were now corrupted, and could only be repaired with a difficult, complex procedure.

    If they didn't already have Autocad the free trail subscription would not be a problem - it is only existing owners of the product who suffer from trying out the subscription.

  6. #21
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    Thank you for stating the problem so clearly.

  7. #22
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    I recently tried the Silver Ticket option that was offered on a trial basis. I quickly determined that the program was not something I was interested in and cancelled after the second month.
    .
    Thanks for the feedback - I'd be interested whether the issue was price, quantity, quality, or something else.

    The problem was that I still had items gained from the membership placed on my Routes and Sessions. When the membership was terminated these items became corrupted and I am unable to delete them in game.

    By "corrupted" I assume you mean "not active" (and therefore not usable). Clearly if all the items were still available, then everyone could subscribe for a month then cancel and maintain access to all the content. It should be pretty clear that access is available only while your subscription is active.

    I contacted the Trainz Support team and was given a list of actions I need to take to remove these items. Unfortunately, it involves complex steps that I have no ability to perform. I have communicated my displeasure in the remedy but have not heard back.

    The steps to remove the content are voluntary. The items can co-exist quite happily in your installation. We have plans to improve the uninstall process for DLC, but meanwhile the manual steps (which, in short, are to delete the packages, then rebuild the database) are the only option.

    The Trainz community should be aware that if they plan on cancelling the Silver Ticket membership (and I assume the Gold Ticket also) they should remove any items gained during the program from their Routes and Sessions beforehand.

    There is no requirement to remove anything (although if you need everything to be "neat and tidy" then it can be done without too much hassle).

    Any items that have been used in a route or session will be "missing". You have a choice to replace the items (manually) or use "Delete Missing Assets" to clear them out.

    Replacing the items while your subscription is active is easier as you can use the in-game tools to do so. We also have plans to improve the replace missing assets tools so the items can be replaced just as easily when they aren't installed/available.

    It's true that the current process is not perfect or foolproof, but we'll continue to improve our processes to make it better.
    Tony Hilliam

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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Hilliam View Post
    It's true that the current process is not perfect or foolproof, but we'll continue to improve our processes to make it better.
    Maybe if you have an existing product, then try the 'trial' and go back, you can 'buy' the full version to fix all the missing 'stuff'. There should be a bail out option here somehow. Seems like there is nothing like this. Could be a great option to capitalize on.

    Call it the 'Beem Me Up Scottie' option.
    Last edited by Christopher824; March 11th, 2019 at 08:14 PM.
    If it's not broke, don't fix it.


  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Hilliam View Post
    By "corrupted" I assume you mean "not active" (and therefore not usable). Clearly if all the items were still available, then everyone could subscribe for a month then cancel and maintain access to all the content. It should be pretty clear that access is available only while your subscription is active.
    Please read the full thread. By 'corrupted' OP means that assets used in routes installed prior to starting the trial are now marked as inactive payware, with the result that those routes are now marked as missing dependencies. The help desk has provided a procedure that can be used to restore these items to their previous state as downloaded from the DLS. The problem is that this procedure is very complex and prone to error for inexperienced users. Also, it does not work for all affected assets, although in some cases a much more complex procedure that involves editing config.txt files will succeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Hilliam View Post
    There is no requirement to remove anything (although if you need everything to be "neat and tidy" then it can be done without too much hassle).
    That is precisely the requirement in order to avoid having existing routes with missing assets, and the process involves a lot of hassle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Hilliam View Post
    It's true that the current process is not perfect or foolproof, but we'll continue to improve our processes to make it better.
    If you know that it's not perfect then why isn't there a warning provided before customers take out the subscription, and why isn't the repair procedure properly documented in the FAQs? People will put up with a lot of imperfections if they are pre-warned and aware.

  10. #25
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    Dear Tony Hilliam,

    It's nice that you have joined us on this public forum. Through the Supprt Desk I asked to talk to someone higher up ie: owner/manager but I never got a response.

    By "corrupted" I assume you mean "not active" (and therefore not usable). Clearly if all the items were still available, then everyone could subscribe for a month then cancel and maintain access to all the content. It should be pretty clear that access is available only while your subscription is active.

    No, I mean corrupted. There were assets that were 'ghosting' my session. That means they were there but you couldn't do anything to or with them. I was able to delete the whole train that 2 items were attached to and that got them out of the game (I assume). The other loco was on its own track and was invisible. The directional arrows were visible though.

    On another Route I had a SAP Dock (I think Bulk) placed in the game. After unsubscribing the Dock was gone but the rails were there suspended in mid air. These would not allow any manipulation either.
    I sent pictures to Support as well as the Portal.

    There is limited information in your promotions provided about how the Silver Ticket membership is designed to work. When I pointed that out to the Support Team I was given a response that this is how all membership subscription work. The only other game I play is Minecraft with my son. He set it up and all I've ever had to do is launch the game and play. N3V doesn't take into account the newbies to subscriptions like myself. I subscribed when the free trail was offered and carried it for another month to fully understand the process.

    It was only when there was a reference to getting access back to the items chosen did I fully realize the poor cost point to subscriptions in general but particularly to Trainz Silver/Gold Tickets. And that's not just for current Trainz owners. IMHO this is a bad deal for anyone. I provided a partial list of my reasons for unsubscribing through the survey I received.

    In response to my Trouble Ticket about the lost assets the Support Desk sent the following:

    You can uninstall any DLC packs in Trainz by following these steps:

    1) You will need to locate your appdata folder. You can find the path to your appdata folder in Launcher > Trainz Settings > Install. The path will look something like C:/Users/%username%/AppData/Local/N3V Games/TANE/build xxxxxxxx
    2) Shut down Trainz and ensure that tane.exe had ended (check in Task Manager no other tane.exe processes are running)
    3) Navigate to the LocalData folder location from the Trainz Settings, and open the “build xxxxxxxx” folder or the folder that your install path was pointing to
    4) Now open the folder called 'Packages'. Please locate all folders starting with the DLC pack's ID in the Packages folder, and then delete them.
    5) Once you have deleted these folders, please try running a database repair.

    To do this, first click on 'developer' on the launcher screen, then click on 'rebuild database'. Once the repair has completed, please start Trainz and then you should see the 'asset download' window appear, which will allow you to download these routes again.

    The DLC packs that were provided through your Silver Membership are as follows:

    45359 or sc359 (The Shortz & Kerlz Traction Railroad)
    45370 or sc370 (Franklin Avenue Industrial)
    45374 or sc374 (Port Zyd & Fulazturn Railroad )
    sc025 (Kickstarter County )
    sc083 (CSX Transportation - GE B30-7)
    sc118 (Trainz DLC: Nickel Plate High Speed Freight Set)
    sc155 (Victorian Railways Type 2 DD Class Pack)
    sc234 (SNCF - AGC Languedoc)
    sc236 (Healesville)
    sc241 (BNSF Railway - GE C44-9W Heritage 3)
    sc262 (Southern Pacific - GE CW44-9)
    sc264 (Union Pacific - GE C40-8)
    sc368 (Trainz Route: Balezino Mosti)
    sc379 (Trainz Route - Settle and Carlisle)
    sc390 (Trainz Route: Niddertalbahn)
    sc408 (Vr Dd Class (type 2))
    sc409 (DBuz 747 Passenger Cars)
    sc410 (ATSF GP38-2 Santa FE (2 Pack))
    sc432 (Shmmns Coil Transporter)
    sc433 (Trainz Route: Shortline Railroad)
    sc450 (Midwestern Branch)
    sc464 (NS Maersk SD40-2 2a1)
    sc469 (Tnfrhs Refrigerator Wagon)
    tdd043 (CONTZ Pack - Standard Edition)
    tdd045 (Trainz DLC: PRR T1 - A Fleet of Modernism)
    tdd051 (China D38 Schnabel Car - Red)
    tdd054 (Trainz DLC: LMS Coronation Scot)

    Please note, this list may also include packages that you own outright, in which case you will not need to delete these DLC packs.

    The process, that the Support Desk and you say is the only way to fix this problem, is well beyond my capabilities. An apology is in order for once again releasing something into the Trainz community that hasn't been properly vetted. That would show some ownership of the problem that Trainz caused for unsuspecting paying customers. Though I shouldn't say unsuspecting after TANE.

    I'm sorry but for someone my age with the type of disability I suffer from this set of instructions is useless. To be clear; all anyone should have to do is unsubscribe and go about their gaming. Your 'oh well, we're not perfect' excuse has been worn out long ago with the TANE debacle. You should own the problem and fix it before you release it, make it right when unforeseen issues arise and take into account that the majority of users can't or don't want to do complex tasks to just play the game. And they shouldn't find months/years of work with a broken link icon that was caused by the company's rush to generate revenue before fully vetting the product.

    When asked, your Support Desk was unable to supply me with the 10 items that I borrowed during my subscription. As you can see from the above they were unable to differentiate from the DLC items that I have purchased outright. The warning that I would have to re-download those items just made the situation worse. I have a DSL with only 1.5 Mbps. Re-downloading these items is a long drawn out process in its own right.

    I thought the release of TRS 19 went much smoother and being a loyal customer from the first Edition I want to support the Trainz brand. I have purchased every edition and many items over the years. I love some of the new features in TRS 19. That said, I am thoroughly disappointed with the way N3V has handled this community asset over the years. The game is great. The customer service (and that comes from the top) has been terrible in my experience.


    I take your response to this issue as typically nonchalant. To say you're working on it doesn't fly. You should be making it abundantly clear to ALL subscribers the threat they are under until you fix the problem. You should be very clear to ALL potential subscribers that there is a serious bug that needs to be fixed before you issue any more subscriptions to current Trainz users. You should be clear that your are doing it to protect their builds from being corrupted. Some people might actually appreciate that you have some integrity.

    I'm sorry for having to be so direct. I would have gone quietly if not for the complete failure to get any realistic help or even a response from N3V. It didn't look like the issue would be addressed and that many subscribers would fall down the same rabbit hole with the same Support Desk response. Even on this thread the CEO says 'Woops. too bad. There's only one way out of this mess you got yourself into by trusting us again. There's a complex set of steps that anyone that isn't a moron can do. And by the way, this is all we got.'

    One time I'd like to hear you take responsibility and apologize for your mistake. It's really not that hard. Read SailorDan's last comment for a well stated analogy to what has happened here.

    Sincerely,
    A loyal and disappointed customer

  11. #26
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    I'm sorry I stepped on SailorDan's other last response. This is the quote from SailorDan that I wanted to reference:

    Not quite. It is actually the same as someone who already has Autocad trying out the free trial of the subscription version and then, after the free trial ends, discovering that a large number of their models and drawings (including some created many years before) were now corrupted, and could only be repaired with a difficult, complex procedure.

    If they didn't already have Autocad the free trail subscription would not be a problem - it is only existing owners of the product who suffer from trying out the subscription.

  12. #27
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    No, I mean corrupted. There were assets that were 'ghosting' my session. That means they were there but you couldn't do anything to or with them. I was able to delete the whole train that 2 items were attached to and that got them out of the game (I assume). The other loco was on its own track and was invisible. The directional arrows were visible though.

    Montycrafter, I would very much like to thank you for your detailed report. Now that I understand the situation fully, and have run some test, I can confirm there are several things we need to address with the current process.


    The problems here are that:
    * There is currently no indication in game or CM that the route is "missing" content when it includes Payware (not active) or disabled items.
    * There is no indication in-game that there is missing content (unless "Show missing assets" option is enabled)
    * There is no prompt to indicate that you are about to load a route/session that is likely to have problems.
    * It is not intuitive to run a "Delete Missing Assets" to fix the problem.
    * If the game deleted missing content automatically, that would be really bad.
    * If the missing content is on the tracks, it causes derailments (and confusion, whereas a missing piece of track would show up as a gap in the track).

    I have asked our dev team to investigate the best ways to address these issues.

    Regarding understanding the process prior to cancelling, I have asked our web team to provide detailed information on the cancellation page to ensure that people (at least those who read the information) are aware of the outcome of cancelling.

    Regarding not being clear as to "leasing" the content, the current FAQ states "After your membership expires, when you next log in to Trainz your DLC items will show as “Not Active”."

    We will update our FAQs to make it even clearer what that means in practical terms.
    Tony Hilliam

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Hilliam View Post
    * It is not intuitive to run a "Delete Missing Assets" to fix the problem.
    Delete missing assets is not a 'fix'. The route will be incomplete when those assets are removed. You acknowledge this in the comments below. It should not be promoted as a fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Hilliam View Post
    Regarding understanding the process prior to cancelling, I have asked our web team to provide detailed information on the cancellation page to ensure that people (at least those who read the information) are aware of the outcome of cancelling.
    That's too late: it only reinforces the impression that people are being trapped into continuing the subscription, which I am sure is not the message you want to send. Until the issue is resolved people need to be informed before taking out the subscription that cancelling may leave them with a complex repair procedure to reinstate DLS items that have been overwritten by payware.

  14. #29
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    Delete missing assets is not a fix.
    I don't follow your logic. The content is missing, and DMA resolves the problem. If you want the content back, then you need to purchase it or resubscribe.

    How do you suggest it is handled? (An honest question - please don't take that the wrong way).

    The content is not available to the user, and there is no way the program could replace it with anything else.

    people are being trapped into continuing the subscription

    Trapped, by definition, means there is no way out. There is clearly a path out, and clearly a way to resolve any problems that arise.

    We've already updated pre-signup FAQs and cancellation pages to make things clearly (but I suspect most people don't read the fine print, so ultimately the solution needs to be retrospective).

    We're investigating the best ways to make things easier to resolve after the event. (Your answer to my question above may shed light on anything I have missed).
    Last edited by Tony_Hilliam; March 12th, 2019 at 11:34 PM.
    Tony Hilliam

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Hilliam View Post
    I don't follow your logic. The content is missing, and DMA resolves the problem. If you want the content back, then you need to purchase it or resubscribe.
    The content that is missing is DLS content (freeware) in routes installed before the subscription was started, that got overwritten by the payware when the subscription DLC was installed. The complete fix is:
    Identify the uninstalled packages and delete them.
    Rebuild the database.
    List missing dependencies for all remaining routes. This list will be DLS content (freeware) that got overwritten by the subscription DLC.
    Find the missing dependencies on the DLS or elsewhere and install them.

    The last step is the important one that is missing from the Help Desk instructions.

    Note that if (1) any DLC content was a later version than the original DLS (freeware) item and (2) a pre-existing route was saved while the subscription was active, the user will also need to download the route again (if available) or restore it from backup (if available) or manually upversion the original DLS (freeware) items, because the route will have been saved with references to that later version of its dependency. Not saving any DLS (freeware) routes while the DLC content is still installed also covers this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Hilliam View Post
    How do you suggest it is handled?
    The advice to the user contemplating a subscription should describe what the repair will involve, and recommend either that the whole database is backed up so it can be restored, or that routes and their dependencies are backed up so they can be restored. Note that AFAICT an exception can be provided if the user only has built-in and DLC content installed (I haven't yet come across a case where I can confirm this).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Hilliam View Post
    We're investigating the best ways to make things easier to resolve after the event.
    The most important part of a retrospective fix is to ensure that any item included in any DLC that is also a DLS item (and therefore likely to be already used in a route) is available for download from the DLS at the same version as the DLC item. This makes the above procedure (with the all-important last step included) practical for everything except freeware obtained from elsewhere (I have no advice on how that can be handled, and I don't know the extent of that problem, but it may be minor).

    The longer term fix (as advised in the extensive discussion the last time this issue was raised) is to ensure that the installation of the DLC package will never overwrite an installed DLS (freeware) item, and (if the DLC item is a newer version of an existing DLS item) then the newer version is available on the DLS (with or without the same feature set). Then, the process to uninstall DLC can be automated by doing a download of all missing dependencies as part of the DB repair.

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