Under AI Command, trains will run even red absolute dwarf signals ...

JonMyrlennBailey

Active member
... that are triggered by the Trigger Multiple Signals rule. They will hold forever at any absolute red signal triggered by a train occupying the block ahead but not at a red triggered by TMS. They will only wait so long before creeping past the red and sometimes run into a train that has the right of way at the junction where two tracks converge and the TMS is set up at this convergence as the yard ladder switches.

I'm not so unhappy about this because this only happens in the staging yard out of view anyway. On my visible layout, I never have any two oncoming AI trains competing at a convergence.

The drivers under AI have limited patience.

Unlike a human train crew, AI does not seem to be able to see a train right in front of it sometimes where the train ahead is crossing the switch points.

As an automobile driver I always look both ways at an intersection even under a green traffic light and never insist upon my right of way . What AI dispatcher is giving AI trains permission to run even red absolute signals? AI doesn't always seem to drive defensively.
 
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Don't use the rule... It could be the implementation, or it could be incompatible in some fashion with TRM2017. KISS... Wait at a track mark for N-number of minutes. Using standard signaling methods, nothing fancy, and it works fine. I've done it before and do it now on my trolley route, which has essentially staging yards at the ends of the line where the trolleys are sent back in the opposite direction as in real life.
 
Actually, I don't mind much if trains bump into one another in the staging yard because that's supposed to be a hidden region anyway. It doesn't cause a derailment when two trains touch nor does it "scratch their paint". They still continue on their schedules and appear undamaged when they come out onto the visible layout. After all, Trainz trains are images and not real objects.

The AI logic and programming used in our PC game would definitely not work for controlling physical model trains damage-free. Physical train automation would require a much more advanced form of software engineering so trains don't wreck due to programming shortcomings. It would require that physical model trains don't run any absolute reds at convergences under any conditions. The software would have to be well aware of spatial distance as if human train crews were on board with eyes and depth perception to see: how much space is between trains. My ideal AI software model for physical train control would not cause any changes in train speed while crossing navigation references as waypoints or track marks. Trains would be required to cross waypoints on prescribed routes/schedules seamlessly by my standards. Trains would never back up in situations where they are only supposed to go forward so the software would require an acute sense of train facing direction and heading. My ideal programming model would have different signal sense too. In Trainz, AI immediately reacts to the next yellow signal when it comes into a new signal block even if the yellow signal is miles ahead. My programming would not have the train react to the yellow condition until it got within a certain distance of the signal as if a human driver in the cab perceived the signal with his own eyes: say 500-1,000 scale feet in front of the train. Then once the yellow was perceived in this fashion, braking would be gradual and natural as the signal block is approached. Slowing a train (or any motorized road vehicle) over a certain distance involves perception of the hazard or condition ahead, reaction and mechanical braking. AI in our game perceives and reacts to yellow conditions too far in advance.
 
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When you finally learn how to lay track, trackmarkers, signals ... etc ... correctly, all these AI problems that you are constantly posting many, many, new threads about AI, the AI problems magically go away ... running red signals, over running a stop, and bumping into other trains ... etc ... means that you are doing many things seriously wrong, or are over speeding ... I can honestly say that most of these AI problems that you post about, have never (or rarely) happened to me ... KISS means: "Keep It Short and Simple" ... "Keep It Simple and Straightforward", not overly complex ... The more complex things you place in AI's path ... The more AI will become confused, and malfunction. All my trains are measured so they fit onto a staging yard track, or passing siding, without fouling the rear turnout ... I can direct 100's of trains to "Drive", "Drive To Trackmark" ... etc ... etc ... and they do exactly that, and they come to a slow stop 10m away from the trackmark, as I place many consecutive decreasing speedboards prior to the trackmarker
 
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When you finally learn how to lay track, trackmarkers, signals ... etc ... correctly, all these AI problems that you are constantly posting many, many, new threads about AI, the AI problems magically go away ... running red signals, over running a stop, and bumping into other trains ... etc ... means that you are doing many things seriously wrong, or are over speeding ... I can honestly say that most of these AI problems that you post about, have never (or rarely) happened to me ... KISS means: "Keep It Short and Simple" ... "Keep It Simple and Straightforward", not overly complex ... The more things you place in AI's path ... The more AI will become confused, and malfunction.




Amen, Brother---Amen!
 
When you finally learn how to lay track, trackmarkers, signals ... etc ... correctly, all these AI problems that you are constantly posting many, many, new threads about AI, the AI problems magically go away ... running red signals, over running a stop, and bumping into other trains ... etc ... means that you are doing many things seriously wrong, or are over speeding ... I can honestly say that most of these AI problems that you post about, have never (or rarely) happened to me ... KISS means: "Keep It Short and Simple" ... "Keep It Simple and Straightforward", not overly complex ... The more complex things you place in AI's path ... The more AI will become confused, and malfunction. All my trains are measured so they fit onto a staging yard track, or passing siding, without fouling the rear turnout ... I can direct 100's of trains to "Drive", "Drive To Trackmark" ... etc ... etc ... and they do exactly that, and they come to a slow stop 10m away from the trackmark, as I place many consecutive decreasing speedboards prior to the trackmarker

My trains are precisely measured to fit my sidings too. They always stop at the right spot in the yard. They just don't want to yield to a train occupying the ladder of the yard in spite of using absolute 04 dwarf signals and even TMS rules along with them. But this all doesn't bother me much. I'm not complaining but just observing. Out on the visible layout, AI does things that receives a passing grade of C. This AI Command feature doesn't get an A or even a B from me on account of its unnatural slowing down over track marks while executing Drive Via plus braking too hard once a yellow condition is detected ahead too far in advance to be realistic.
 
My trains are precisely measured to fit my sidings too. They always stop at the right spot in the yard. They just don't want to yield to a train occupying the ladder of the yard in spite of using absolute 04 dwarf signals and even TMS rules along with them. But this all doesn't bother me much. I'm not complaining but just observing. Out on the visible layout, AI does things that receives a passing grade of C. This AI Command feature doesn't get an A or even a B from me on account of its unnatural slowing down over track marks while executing Drive Via plus braking too hard once a yellow condition is detected ahead too far in advance to be realistic.

Are you sure you are using absolute signals?

If you are using permissive/home/distant signals, aka the ones with a small plate on them for a name and/or number, then your AI drivers will pass right by them even if they are red. The reason is they are distant or permissive signals, which indicate the upcoming signal and are not meant to be stopped at like an absolute signal. Absolute signals are the equivalent of our traffic lights, although some drivers think that stopping at a red signal is optional and treat them as a permissive signal.
 
Are you sure you are using absolute signals?

If you are using permissive/home/distant signals, aka the ones with a small plate on them for a name and/or number, then your AI drivers will pass right by them even if they are red. The reason is they are distant or permissive signals, which indicate the upcoming signal and are not meant to be stopped at like an absolute signal. Absolute signals are the equivalent of our traffic lights, although some drivers think that stopping at a red signal is optional and treat them as a permissive signal.

John, at ALL my converging junctions, absolute signals are used whether in dwarf (yard) form or mainline (tall) form. They are indicated by an "04" designation. Permissive "05 signals" (yes, the tall ones have number plates and there are dwarf versions of these too which I found not needed) are used at places other than converging junctions over the mainline to keep trains moving forward with as little delay as possible.

The following are all by Auran and seem to confuse AI the least and are helpful at minimizing yellow conditions:

Signal USA 04,<kuid:-25:859>
Signal USA 05,<kuid:-12:214>


My absolute dwarf for yards is by norfolksouthern37

JR MS Generic 04 Dwarf,<kuid2:45324:251102:1>

There is an 05 version of the above which I have found no need for.

There are similar signals with 01, 02, and 03 designations and I don't understand their nature or class well.

There are a couple of spots where I've had to place an invisible signal across a complex junction block so the visible signal on the other side of the block could get a clear view ahead.

I've discovered that placing an engine in front of a newly-placed signal in Surveyor can help me determine how it will function. I can see its condition and hover the mouse over it for details. Sometimes it will be red in front of a complex junction block (usually three or more turnouts/crossovers at close intervals as near yards) and indicate something like "the line ahead has terminated". Placing an invisible signal over this block turns the signal green or yellow and may indicate that the line ahead is "clear for one or more blocks".

I don't really understand the nature of the invisible signal, whether it is an absolute or permissive type.

The invisible signal is a handy tool for fixing signal logic problems wherever needed.
 
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Trainz has always that problem with red signals. I do not understand why it happens. Worst, I do not understand why still happens. cheers and sorry for my bad english.
 
Try using the related JR Type 04 signals along with the dwarfs. Mixing different 'brands' of singals doesn't work well due to script conflicts. I ran into the same problem sometime ago doing just that with AI drivers sitting at some signals but not others. When I went to all of one brand, i.e. RRS SL3s and his related SA-x dwarfs, the problem went away.

Something to think about.
 
Try using the related JR Type 04 signals along with the dwarfs. Mixing different 'brands' of singals doesn't work well due to script conflicts. I ran into the same problem sometime ago doing just that with AI drivers sitting at some signals but not others. When I went to all of one brand, i.e. RRS SL3s and his related SA-x dwarfs, the problem went away.

Something to think about.

I've replaced all the Auran generic mainline signals with norfolksouthern37's JR MS generic series. Both 04 and 05. Now all signals are the same brand, JR MS so the entire layout should now be all on the same page, signal-wise. This was easily done using Replace Assets in Surveyor. Some of the previous Auran USA 04 signals had special names (eg. yard south holding signal) for TMS rules purposes and the 05 ones had custom board numbers: I numbered each and every one of these by hand sequentially: 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, etc.. These names and numbers auto-magically carried over to the new signal brand as if by magic. I did not have to go back and rename and renumber each and every new signal by hand. The JR MS signals for the line even look nicer cosmetically speaking than the crappy-looking Auran USA generic series. Now, I will have to test drive my latest signals and see how they work. These are also the simple signals with only one light lens. Double light lens signals has caused issues with AI in the past.

I guess the permissive signals have board numbers for dispatcher reference over the radio. "This is dispatch. How copy? .... Amtrak California Zephyr west, you may slow roll past permissive 2005, condition red. Over." or something like that.
 
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