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Thread: My TRS19 U.S. Standard Gauge Procedural Track Project

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by clam1952 View Post
    Maybe turn off shadows for the ballast spline? just an idea as in add does-cast-shadows 0 to the config, probably won't help but you never know.
    Turning off shadows completely in the game resulted in no change to the Moire effect.
    Master Sergeant/E8, U.S. Army, Retired (1972-1993)

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by SailorDan View Post
    What I think that explanation means is something like "Because of the way that the rendering of a PBR item depends on the viewing angle, the usual procedures for reducing the number of pixels used for displaying the object (when it is far away and small) can't be used, so the optimisations that are used to reduce moire are lost.".

    Think of a checkerboard: What should it look like when it is so far away that each square is smaller than one pixel? Mipmapping has rules about how that is done, and these rules are carefully engineered to avoid problems like moire. If a PBR texture can't use the pre-calculated mipmaps, and if new mipmaps aren't calculated on the fly (which would be difficult) then artefacts may appear.
    You lost me on this one as I don't understand it. How do I apply this to a practical solution for my issue?
    Master Sergeant/E8, U.S. Army, Retired (1972-1993)

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCitron View Post
    Going from experience with the printing industry, which isn't much, it's usually the screen angles that can cause the moire effect due to the crisscrossing of two conflicting angles. Given we're not dealing with screen angles here, of course, but instead withe different textures, have you tried adjusting the ballast just slightly off the straight line so that it isn't at a strict 90-deg from each other?
    I am not sure how I would be able to do that and still keep the texture seamless. This was a commercial seamless texture I purchased for this purpose.

    BTW after reading your reply I did try a 90 degree counter clockwise rotation of the texture. Result: No change to the Moire effect.

    The only thing that makes any difference is eliminating the height map from the normal which turns the ballast in a PBR non-parallax texture. What happened is that the ballast bed texture went from 3D to 2D and the ties disappeared, although the Moire effect did disappear. This would be an unacceptable solution.

    Bob

    Footnote added later: I even tried a slight Gaussian Blur on the ballast texture but it had no effect on the Moire effect.
    Last edited by MSGSapper; August 24th, 2019 at 08:07 AM.
    Master Sergeant/E8, U.S. Army, Retired (1972-1993)

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSGSapper View Post
    I am not sure how I would be able to do that and still keep the texture seamless. This was a commercial seamless texture I purchased for this purpose.

    BTW after reading your reply I did try a 90 degree counter clockwise rotation of the texture. Result: No change to the Moire effect.

    The only thing that makes any difference is eliminating the height map from the normal which turns the ballast in a PBR non-parallax texture. What happened is that the ballast bed texture went from 3D to 2D and the ties disappeared, although the Moire effect did disappear. This would be an unacceptable solution.

    Bob

    Footnote added later: I even tried a slight Gaussian Blur on the ballast texture but it had no effect on the Moire effect.
    Good to know. I wonder if it's caused not by the textures, but by that clear jelly-effect that's way too obvious in TRS19. I noticed that the jelly-stuff casts shadows its self. It could be these useless shadows are causing the moire because they are offset from the actual model and are shadows of the jelly and not the actual mesh.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
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  5. #110
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    Maybe the lod meshes over a certain distance need making as non parallax, as in both ballast and ties? However as that moire effect also occurs with some but not all non PBR procedural track, I suspect normal mapped ballast varieties, not sure this is user fixable.
    Malc


  6. #111
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    Iirc, the game disables parallax, shadows, and normals automatically when you get a bit away from the camera. I suspect the problem is rather that the ties and ballast use different textures in the 'standard' PBR setup. As such, the two textures don't get mipmapped together, causing the moire effect.

  7. #112
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    Almost all the TRS19 PBR parallax based procedural tracks seem to have this "Moire effect" problem to some extent. I noticed that those tracks that have it the least tend to have unrealistically low or very skimpy ballast beds. I suspect that the authors ran into the same issue I have and opted to have a too low ballast bed in order to deal with the issue when they could not solve it in any other way. Of course that is just a guess.

    In my case I wanted a much more realistic track ballast bed cross section then what was built-into TRS19. I got that, but at the cost of an increased Moire effect.

    After having tried just about everything, I am at the point where I have decided to give up on this issue and leave things things as they are unless someone can present a hard solution that they have tried that works on PBR parallax track.

    Perhaps when someone who is more skilled at this then me, who is bored and wants to give it a shot, they will look at my <kuid:439337:103187> TRS19 SAP Track U.S. 132LB SG Mesh Library and see what they can come up with in their own testing efforts. I really do want this to be a truly great U.S. prototypical track but I have done as much as I can on this but simply cannot get rid of that damn Moire effect.

    I do appreciate all the tips and suggestion you all have given me on this.

    Bob
    Master Sergeant/E8, U.S. Army, Retired (1972-1993)

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSGSapper View Post
    You lost me on this one as I don't understand it. How do I apply this to a practical solution for my issue?
    You can't. What it is saying is that without the precalculated mipmaps there are likely to be artefacts. The only thing I could think of would be to alter the amount of detail, especially in the height map, across the texture in a random way. Try putting in a few smooth patches and see if the effect changes.

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