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Thread: My TRS19 U.S. Standard Gauge Procedural Track Project

  1. #91
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    I continue to get reports of problems with the moire effect but after doing some research have begun to realize that this may not be an issue with the track so much as an issue with TRS19 handling of parallax PBR textures, which my track uses. I searched the forums using the keyword moire and came up with a number of forum posts dating back to well before my release of my track where other track and content items using PBR parallax textures exhibited this same effect. As an example see this forum post:

    https://forums.auran.com/trainz/show...68#post1732468

    What was interesting about that post is that the moire effect apparently went away when a TANE procedural track was placed nearby the TRS19 track. Here is the image from that post:



    I would really like to see this issue resolved once and for all for my new TRS19 procedural track but at this point I think it will most likely need to be resolved by N3V, unless someone can furnish additional technical information on how to resolve it.

    I am very reluctant to tamper with my TRS19 track because it was so difficult to create it in the first place, as achieving the right balance in height between the ballast, track, ties and other items proved surprisingly hard to get done in order to use a PBR parallax texture and to keep PBR parallax ground textures from poking up through the ballast and ties.

    Also according to another post the moire effect was much less apparent in driver then it was in surveyor. I will say that on my system the moire effect has not been that bothersome of an issue, especially in driver.

    Here is a screenshot of the graphics settings i Use on my TRS19 (1920x1080 144hz no vertical sync) with my EVGA 1080 graphics card:



    Bob
    Last edited by MSGSapper; July 12th, 2019 at 12:49 PM.
    Master Sergeant/E8, U.S. Army, Retired (1972-1993)

  2. #92
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    Firstly, thank your for the multitude of assets you have contributed to Trainz.

    Insofar as the moire of your track, I think it depends a lot on the use model for the session. I often like to move back and look at large yards. If one is running a train on single track at close range, it probably is not an issue. One has to suspend disbelief to operate a model RR (or Trainz), but to me the effect just seems too unrealistic.
    I7-8700K
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  3. #93
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    The fact that a piece of T:ANE track mitigates this points to the game rendering engine and not your assets so don't touch the track.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
    TRS2019: 98592

  4. #94

    Question Maximum length of Track between Splines recommended???

    Quote Originally Posted by MSGSapper View Post
    Thanks for that answer!

    Unfortunately I just don't have the experience to be able to deal with this graphic issue. This was an extremely complex project that took a long time to complete. It also took a lot of juggling to get everything just right so it would all work together. Because of all this I am very reluctant to start fooling around it with once again lest I screw something else up.

    Of course if someone wants to take a look at the Blender files I provided with all of this and come up with a solution I will cheer you on.....

    Bob
    Hello Master Sgt,

    In relation to this older Thread discussion, I need your expertise on the lenght of Splines for Rail in Straight lengths for now.....Because this is where I have a problem occasionally on my Route......When I have long runs of Straight Rail segments.?

    https://forums.auran.com/trainz/show...rack-or-spline

    From what I gather, sections of the Rail will disappear as your rolling down the screen in surveyor and also on Driver, under some circumstances. So maybe it is my Graphics Card can't deal with long sections of Track and few Splines, as I like from an Operating system perspective, to use less splines etc, Density of Trees and what not, so It doesn't slow my NVIDIA 1050 xt Card down on Frame Rate......to much.......As I have merged 3 Routes together, with a good amount of Trackage in some spots.

    It looks like the sweet spot is somewhere between 65' or 20 meters, and North up to 200 Meters or 656 ' feet maximum, if the 656 Feet works, I round it off to 650 feet of Max Distance between any long stretches of Track Splines, in some open country Stretches on my Route.

    I knew there was limit on Tree and Shrub, Grass Splines too, it is relatively the same thing, only so much Graphics Rendering Trainz or the Video Card can handle, but I have experienced this in a few spots and wondered if the disappearing Tracks was attributed to this phenomena...And now it makes sense to me....

    Just like your take on max distance Master Sergeant that you use for long runs of Straight Track, once it curves naturally, you add a Spline here and there to break up the curves how you want it, and that keeps max length minimized of course......

    How do they say it, you trip over something occasionally and helps you learn things.....LOL


    Oh and I don't don't care for Meters since I was raised on the Feet and Yards measurement way of doing things. Awkward thing Meters, the World needs to be one or the other, someday, will probably convert to Meters, hopefully, I'll be pushing Daisy's up in Feet by that time...LOL

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueodessey View Post
    Hello Master Sgt,

    In relation to this older Thread discussion, I need your expertise on the lenght of Splines for Rail in Straight lengths for now.....Because this is where I have a problem occasionally on my Route......When I have long runs of Straight Rail segments.?

    https://forums.auran.com/trainz/show...rack-or-spline

    From what I gather, sections of the Rail will disappear as your rolling down the screen in surveyor and also on Driver, under some circumstances. So maybe it is my Graphics Card can't deal with long sections of Track and few Splines, as I like from an Operating system perspective, to use less splines etc, Density of Trees and what not, so It doesn't slow my NVIDIA 1050 xt Card down on Frame Rate......to much.......As I have merged 3 Routes together, with a good amount of Trackage in some spots.

    It looks like the sweet spot is somewhere between 65' or 20 meters, and North up to 200 Meters or 656 ' feet maximum, if the 656 Feet works, I round it off to 650 feet of Max Distance between any long stretches of Track Splines, in some open country Stretches on my Route.

    I knew there was limit on Tree and Shrub, Grass Splines too, it is relatively the same thing, only so much Graphics Rendering Trainz or the Video Card can handle, but I have experienced this in a few spots and wondered if the disappearing Tracks was attributed to this phenomena...And now it makes sense to me....

    Just like your take on max distance Master Sergeant that you use for long runs of Straight Track, once it curves naturally, you add a Spline here and there to break up the curves how you want it, and that keeps max length minimized of course......

    How do they say it, you trip over something occasionally and helps you learn things.....LOL


    Oh and I don't don't care for Meters since I was raised on the Feet and Yards measurement way of doing things. Awkward thing Meters, the World needs to be one or the other, someday, will probably convert to Meters, hopefully, I'll be pushing Daisy's up in Feet by that time...LOL
    Blue:

    I am not sure I understand what you are looking for here. My track has the lod-distance parameter set for 500 meters. For more on that parameter see:

    http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/i...e%22_container

    How much of the track, and many other things, you can see at a time on the screen is governed by both the settings in that content item and your video settings. Below is a screenshot that shows those settings. In my case I have the maximum draw distance set to 2500 meters. If you maximum draw distance is set to a lower number then LOD-distance it will then override the LOD-distance parameter for that item.



    BTW please just call me Bob, instead of using my retired rank.

    Bob
    Master Sergeant/E8, U.S. Army, Retired (1972-1993)

  6. #96
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    The more I look at this, I wonder if it has something to do with the shadows interacting with the ties that's causing the moire. Unfortunately right now my Trainzing PC is down due to a hard disk failure last night so I can't confirm this and the machine is copying the data from the dying drive to another one internally and I want to give the system as much oomph as it needs to copy the data.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
    TRS2019: 98592

  7. #97

    Question Override Draw Distance CAP to use or not to use it???

    Quote Originally Posted by MSGSapper View Post
    Blue:

    I am not sure I understand what you are looking for here. My track has the lod-distance parameter set for 500 meters. For more on that parameter see:

    http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/i...e%22_container

    How much of the track, and many other things, you can see at a time on the screen is governed by both the settings in that content item and your video settings. Below is a screenshot that shows those settings. In my case I have the maximum draw distance set to 2500 meters. If you maximum draw distance is set to a lower number then LOD-distance it will then override the LOD-distance parameter for that item.


    BTW please just call me Bob, instead of using my retired rank.

    Bob
    Sorry Bob,

    I will make that change, with Name usage, I understand, it's just a respect thing........

    And thanks for your answer, on the Rail Length, that makes perfect sense, I will need to look at what my Draw distance is set for first in Global Settings.

    This part of the information, was what I needed too, too get a sense of how far the track draws out, I should have opened one of your Track Assets and looked at that too, didn't think of it in LOD construct, makes perfect sense in the linear draw out dimension......

    "My track has the lod-distance parameter set for 500 meters. For more on that parameter see"

    That 500 meters is a good length feet (approx 1640.42') that is more than enough for some spots where I saw tracks disappearing on me........

    Will need to set the Track Spline distances in some of those long run areas through open country to say, like 75% shorter than my Global Draw settings and that should do the Trick.........!!!


    One last thing, do you ever suggest using the Override Draw Distance CAP switch in Global settings above? The reason I ask, is I like seeing my Mountains in the distance when possible, and I thought if I had that turned on, it would show them, am I thinking correct, or just muddying up the Graphic Waters here by trying to use it......? Thoughts please..........

    Appreciate your time sir.........

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCitron View Post
    The more I look at this, I wonder if it has something to do with the shadows interacting with the ties that's causing the moire. Unfortunately right now my Trainzing PC is down due to a hard disk failure last night so I can't confirm this and the machine is copying the data from the dying drive to another one internally and I want to give the system as much oomph as it needs to copy the data.
    John;

    Funny, I was thinking the same thing last night as well when I typed my earlier replies on the subject. When I have some time I will play around with the does-cast-shadows parameter in the mesh-table container and see if that might change things for the track, assuming that will work with the track.

    Anyone else tried that?

    Bob
    Master Sergeant/E8, U.S. Army, Retired (1972-1993)

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueodessey View Post
    Sorry Bob,

    I will make that change, with Name usage, I understand, it's just a respect thing........

    One last thing, do you ever suggest using the Override Draw Distance CAP switch in Global settings above? The reason I ask, is I like seeing my Mountains in the distance when possible, and I thought if I had that turned on, it would show them, am I thinking correct, or just muddying up the Graphic Waters here by trying to use it......? Thoughts please..........
    No problem on the name thing. While I am proud of my military service I have been retired for over 26 years now so Bob feels more natural now then being called "Sergeant" once again. Since I have retiring from the Army I have already had two other careers as well. Now its just plain old completely retired.

    As for the Override Draw Distance CAP I have not tried using it, nor am familiar with it, so can't really advise you on it. You can go to the below link however for information on that setting:

    http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/i...w_Distance_Cap

    Bob
    Master Sergeant/E8, U.S. Army, Retired (1972-1993)

  10. #100
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    I decided to check the effect that shadows has on the moire effect. I did several tests using the following:

    1. In the mesh files I used the does-cast-shadows = 0 setting.
    2. In the CM graphic settings I turned shadow quality completely off.
    3. Tried different shadow settings in the CM graphic settings.

    In all case shadows had no effect on the moire effect showing up on my track.

    I also decided to to test the effect of the following CM graphic settings by turning it off or changing it that setting:

    1. Main shadow resolution.
    2. Post processing.
    3. Antialiasing.
    4. Detail update rate.
    5. Uses PhysX simulation.
    6. Texture detail.

    With the exception of Shader quality the results of each change had no effect on the moire effect. Of course as my track requires the shader quality to be set to Ultra because of the parallax PBR textures which are being used this is not an option.

    At this point I think the problem lies in the shader but can't say much more then that.

    Bob
    Master Sergeant/E8, U.S. Army, Retired (1972-1993)

  11. #101
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    I decided to look into this a bit further.

    The moire effect, and how bad it is, seems to be tied directly to the ballast bed and how high it is, which leads me to believe that the issue revolves around the usage of PBR parallax in a texture.

    As a test I turned off parallax, by deleting the height map in the normal texture map for the ballast bed, and the result was that the moire effect completely disappears. Of course this is not an option with my track, which relies on parallax for the 3D ballast effect, and 3D ballast is the whole reason I created this track in the first place. BTW I also noticed that the moire effect does not appear on any of my track which does not have a ballast bed.

    I did some checking and the moire effect also appears in some of the various built-in TRS19 Trk Jarrah versions that come with TRS19 as seen in the screenshot image in post #91 above. How bad it appears on those tracks seems to be a function of how pronounced or high the ballast bed is. As my ballast bed is pretty high, and I believe looks much better because of that, the moire effect is more pronounced. I was never happy with the almost non-existent ballast provided by most of the various built-in tracks which came with TRS19. In my opinion they looked very unrealistic for the most part.

    At this point I have exhausted all possibilities that I can effect, unless someone out there has further things to suggest?

    Bob

    Added later note: I did find the following explanation as for why moire appears in PBR, although I am not sure I understand it, nor am absolutely sure it applies here:

    "Because mipmap levels are used to store the pre-integrated environment, they can't be used for texture minification, as they ought to. This can causes aliasing or moiré artifacts in high frequency regions or the environment at low roughness and/or distant or small objects. This can also impact performance due to the resulting poor cache access pattern."

    The above explanation came from:

    https://google.github.io/filament/Filament.html
    Last edited by MSGSapper; July 14th, 2019 at 09:04 AM.
    Master Sergeant/E8, U.S. Army, Retired (1972-1993)

  12. #102
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    Today I decided to revisit my TRS19 PBR parallax track to see if I could somehow eliminate the moire effect. What I tried:

    1. Adjusted the height of the ballast bed to various settings. Results: No change in Moire effect.

    2. Adjusting the height of the ties/sleepers to various settings. Results: No change in Moire effect.

    3. Changed the texture files from .tga to .png. Results: No change in Moire effect.

    4. Tried different Materialize program settings for the albedo, normal and parameter texture files. Results: No change in Moire effect.

    5. Tried different graphic settings in Trainz for shadows and several other things. Results: No change in Moire effect.

    At this point I am at a total loss for how to get rid of the Moire effect in the track and have tried everything I can think of. Perhaps someone with more skill with Blender or other things can look at this and point me in the right direction on this? BTW in the track mesh library are all the Blender 2.79 project files for the track.

    Bob
    Master Sergeant/E8, U.S. Army, Retired (1972-1993)

  13. #103
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    Going from experience with the printing industry, which isn't much, it's usually the screen angles that can cause the moire effect due to the crisscrossing of two conflicting angles. Given we're not dealing with screen angles here, of course, but instead withe different textures, have you tried adjusting the ballast just slightly off the straight line so that it isn't at a strict 90-deg from each other?
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
    TRS2019: 98592

  14. #104
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    Maybe turn off shadows for the ballast spline? just an idea as in add does-cast-shadows 0 to the config, probably won't help but you never know.
    Malc


  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSGSapper View Post
    The above explanation came from: https://google.github.io/filament/Filament.html
    What I think that explanation means is something like "Because of the way that the rendering of a PBR item depends on the viewing angle, the usual procedures for reducing the number of pixels used for displaying the object (when it is far away and small) can't be used, so the optimisations that are used to reduce moire are lost.".

    Think of a checkerboard: What should it look like when it is so far away that each square is smaller than one pixel? Mipmapping has rules about how that is done, and these rules are carefully engineered to avoid problems like moire. If a PBR texture can't use the pre-calculated mipmaps, and if new mipmaps aren't calculated on the fly (which would be difficult) then artefacts may appear.

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