Trainz - Potential Features List

In my opinion, this is a very bad idea. This will definately split the community in two. I truly hope this plan won't become reality.

I agree to the post above. Updates and new features should become available to anyone immediately. Everyone pays for the game and the gold / silver memberships already have their benefits. In my opinion, this is just an ordinary marketing trick. Do not let this be your revenue model. I am a trainzer since the early days, but these ideas are truly worrying me. Please, do not follow Railworks / Train Simulator / TSW with their exorbitant payware model. Please, do not force your beta testers (which you should be very grateful as they help you improve the game) force to PAY for helping you.

What I'd like to say: I'm not against silver and gold memberships and I do understand you have to revisite your business / revenue model from time to time, but I think enough has been said by others users (customers / stakeholders) in this thread. This idea isn't really appreciated so far.

Pretty early for an April Fool's joke.

On the one hand you pay for the beta test. If a new version appears then you pay again. There is certainly a discount if you are a Plus-Premium-Gold-Miles and More member.

If you do not want to pay for the beta test, then it is a little bit more expensive. You do not get the current state of the art and all content, because you want to play only the game and not a beta test simulator.

But heck, if you do not need it, you do not have to buy the Platin-Gold-Plus-Monthly-Lifetime-I am optimistic "My glass is half full" subscription version. After all, it's just a game :wave:

Hasn't this argument played out before when the subscription plan was announced?

Any chance of staying on topic and discussing the features?

amigacooke said:

Any chance of staying on topic and discussing the features?

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Probably not!

If you look at the history of Trainz the new releases with new features seem to be spaced at 2 year intervals, on average. Obviously there was a shorter gap between TS2009 and 2010. So a 2 year wait for non-Gold subscribers to get the new features is not much different from what has happened in the past. One difference, however, is that the Gold members will now become the new beta testers for the non Gold members.

As for a "two tier" system, we already have that. In fact you could make the claim that we already have a "multi-tier" system - the subscribers, development group members, the current beta testers and "ordinary" users. If people want to pay extra to get elevated up a tier then let them. When I fly I get a choice of three classes - Economy, Premium Economy and Business. Plenty of businesses offer "higher level" memberships with additional "perks" and "benefits" for an extra charge. No one seems to complain about that.

If some users are keen to see (and beta test) new features before the rest of us, and I am certain that there will be many, then let them. I see no harm in it and a lot of benefits for both N3V and the "rest of us".

For the record I am not a Gold or Silver subscriber, I am not a member of the Developers Group, but I am a beta tester for both TANE and TRS19.

My opinions only.

Any chance of staying on topic and discussing the features?

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I'll try.

Surprised to see so many posters with "Trainz" starting the route on the station line.
Still hanging on and hoping maybe?

Well I had good intentions.

As far as subscriptions go - Vern has expressed my sentiments:

Vern

When that happens, I will elect to pay the monthly fee.

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When/if that happens will be history for me...

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From the OP:

Note that this list is not exhaustive, and should not be construed as the feature list of Trainz 20xx. It is designed to show you the list of things that are being considered or being worked on, and no doubt a number of these will make it into future versions of Trainz while others will miss out.
...
Train Physics

Additional steam support:
Smoke relates to power output/throttle settings
Dual valve injectors
Blowdown/dampers etc
...

Ongoing Bug Fixing

*Expected to be complete
** Feature in-development and potentially some time until released for external testing

Something important missing from the list?

The list above has been compiled from a variety of sources, and many items are summarised under some fairly broad topics (e.g. we could list 100 additional surveyor tools).

We also know that there are many great ideas out there, and we're keen to give everyone an opportunity to have their say about additional items that may make it onto this list.

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Just curious, does the "Ongoing Bug Fixing" address things like gross faults in the steam physics that still exist thru several Trainz versions:
Steam locos still only develop about 60% of their rated power output when going in reverse.

It's probably been there since TS2009. Surely we can find the problem and fix it. I don't have TS19 so I can't test what I don't have but it's still there in TANE SP3.

I'd like to see the new features for steam locos as mentioned:
No. 1 - Smoke relates to power output/throttle settings - can be done in scripting since TS2009 using steam chest pressure, speed and cutoff/throttle settings. Obviously this can be better implemented in native code. Hoping you do it justice.

No 3 Blowdown/dampers etc - we definitely need more control over the fire and draft.

But do we need “Dual valve injectors” before the bug I mentioned is found and fixed?

Bob Pearson

n3vpolsen said:

What is Trainz PLUS?

Trainz PLUS is a free update that is available only to our Gold Class members.

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Haha, wow. Free as long as we pay you every month you mean. What is Trains PLUS? Locking features behind a paywall, getting paid for users' work beta testing features (an awful trend in modern gaming), an omen of more and more things being subscription in the future, etc.

I want N3V/Trainz to do well like everyone else here, but I want nothing more than this plan to blow up in your face when it starts rolling out. I wouldn't be as irked if you were honest in the lead-up to TRS19 when we were being told the only thing a subscription model would be for was multiplayer surveyor. I mentioned then that this would end up being the result, but figured it would at least be some years down the road. Surveyor tools(where I spend 90% of my time), not to mention other systems, are in need of some enhancements by now, but I'm not going to pay every month in order to try/use them.

I should also note that my opinion on this would improve a bit if after successfully testing a feature (not expecting any major game-changing ones necessary to justify the next new full version) would be rolled out into the next Hotfix or Service Pack of TRS19 for all users, not the next Trainz. Just a suggestion for a compromise where users who want to pay for beta access are free to do so while those who already paid your asking price for the simulator may not feel as cheated or on a 'lower tier.'

Regards,
Coble

To be fair N3V did mention about Trainz Plus in the FAQs when TRS19 was released Coble.

Shane

martinvk said:

All good ideas.
Is the bold below a typo or does Atlasing mean something?
.....

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It's sort of like images within images. I've been using the technique within Blender for a while now for muiti mesh UV mapping. But I suspect N3V might mean a variation of that at the game level. Ground textures maybe?

RPearson said:

Here's a new thought:
Test Track where we can test out and develop steam-engine especs for steam locomotives.


Oh already promised - I must have missed it.

Bob Pearson

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Yes. I promptly added that to the Feature Request web page. Again!

TRS19 doesn't support steam locos in Test Track.

coble12 said:

... I wouldn't be as irked if you were honest in the lead-up to TRS19 when we were being told the only thing a subscription model would be for was multiplayer surveyor. I mentioned then that this would end up being the result, but figured it would at least be some years down the road. Surveyor tools(where I spend 90% of my time), not to mention other systems, are in need of some enhancements by now, but I'm not going to pay every month in order to try/use them.

...

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As I recall, the discussion on a subscription for multi user surveyor was tentative thinking on N3V's part. Personally, I couldn't see why anyone other than groups of dedicated route builders would want to pay for such a service and therefore the idea was nonviable. It seems to me that gold, and perhaps silver, membership might allow you to participate in multi user surveyor and get the other benefits.

I've used the TrainzDev version of multi user surveyor and, with chat tools such as Discord, I can see 2 or 3 collaborative route builders would like it a lot. Obviously, there is little or no benefit to single user development.

I should point out that I'm the world's worst route developer and would never use this tool despite being a gold member. My Trainz content development interests are elsewhere.

Hold your horses.

I see one item in the list is "additional procedural track".

So, we will see routes uploaded to the DLS using this new track? These routes can be used by one group of Trainz users (the Trainz + subscribers) but not to others (the plebs)?

It could turn ugly.

My suggestion - make any additional content available to all through the Download Station.

Phil

It's great to see a list of some of the things N3V are working on, or will be working on in the future. It's going to be interesting to see how many of these proposed improvements - changes will make it into Trainz. Hopefully they all will eventually.

Personally, I have no problem with N3V wanting to TRY and re-jig their business model. If it helps them stay in business, great, it's a win - win for all.

It's everyone's choice as too whether they want to be at the leading edge, (beta testing, new content, etc) with the prescription options, or whether they are happy to wait for the finished, hopefully polished product to be publicly released. Me, I'm happy to wait!!!

I'm with Vern; If the "prescription only" ever becomes the "only" option; I'll just stay with what I have, or look at other train sims!!! I'm quite happy to pay for a FCT annually. I'm quite happy to buy each new version of Trainz when it's a finished product and is publicly released. From time to time, I'm quite happy to buy DLC off N3V, if it interests me.

Those options have worked well for me over the last 15 years (approx). Hopefully those options are going to remain available to everyone over the next 15 years...

Happy trainzing all,

Cheers, Mac...

philskene said:

Hold your horses.

I see one item in the list is "additional procedural track".

So, we will see routes uploaded to the DLS using this new track? These routes can be used by one group of Trainz users (the Trainz + subscribers) but not to others (the plebs)?

It could turn ugly.

My suggestion - make any additional content available to all through the Download Station.

Phil

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I suspect the answer is that those in the Upper Class will get a higher Trainz Build version than those of us lower class Trainzers, pretty much as the now apparently obsolete Beta testers did.

Of course the vast majority of TRS19 users have been quite happy for a particular group to be second class citizens. There is a group that doesn’t have TurfFX in their version of TRS19, but that’s OK because they’re just a small minority.

As this is is laid out, I can’t see that I’m going to be any worst off. I buy a ‘new’ version of Trainz every couple of years, with new features, just the same as always. On the plus side, I’ll know what’s coming as well

coble12 said:

Free as long as we pay you every month you mean.

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That is exactly the same sarcasm as saying "SPs and HFs are free, as long as you have paid for the program" but I see no one complaining about the free SPs/HFs to Trainz owners. Why do you complain about something that is provided only to users who have paid for a "premium" product? If I fly business class I get "free" access to the business class lounge at the airport and all its perks that the economy class passengers do not get - is that unfair?

coble12 said:

What is Trains PLUS? Locking features behind a paywall, getting paid for users' work beta testing features (an awful trend in modern gaming), an omen of more and more things being subscription in the future, etc.

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If you don't like it then you don't have to subscribe to it. You have the choice. I do not understand why people, including from the US which markets itself as the home of "free enterprise" and "free choice", are so opposed to people having a choice.

coble12 said:

Surveyor tools(where I spend 90% of my time), not to mention other systems, are in need of some enhancements by now, but I'm not going to pay every month in order to try/use them.

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And you don't have to pay every month to use them. Those additional tools will become available in the next Trainz release - just like other new features that have appeared over the years. Active industries, AI, trainz physics, procedural track, navigation points, environmental controls, etc, etc have all been introduced in new versions of Trainz. But if you want to use them now then you will have to subscribe otherwise you have to wait. That is "free enterprise" and "free choice".

If people want to waste money on a subscription fair enough, however those of us who don't need or want any of the stuff from the vault and are creators and route builders and not DLC collectors, it is an unjustified waste of money for something they will never use. If I did want any DLC I'd pay for it rather than risk loosing it because I could no longer meet the payments, no one knows what the future holds.
What does annoy me is the way loyal beta testers, without whom N3V wouldn't have anything much of a Premium Product to subscribe to, are being excluded from future testing if they don't pay extra for the privilege of being allowed to test. May loose some good and experienced testers because of this discriminatory class system.

I love that you want to fix everything, as every new version should, but again I will give you my thoughts. I will never buy into the subscription ideology. Give me something i can 'Buy' and I will buy it, own it, pass it down, etc.

clam1952 said:

If people want to waste money on a subscription fair enough, however those of us who don't need or want any of the stuff from the vault and are creators and route builders and not DLC collectors, it is an unjustified waste of money for something they will never use. If I did want any DLC I'd pay for it rather than risk loosing it because I could no longer meet the payments, no one knows what the future holds.

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I have no argument with any of that. I made the decision that buying a Gold or a Silver subscription did not suit my needs or interests. That is free choice.

clam1952 said:

What does annoy me is the way loyal beta testers, without whom N3V wouldn't have anything much of a Premium Product to subscribe to, are being excluded from future testing if they don't pay extra for the privilege of being allowed to test. May loose some good and experienced testers because of this discriminatory class system.

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TANE and TRS19 beta testers also had to buy TANE and TRS19 before they could become beta testers. If a new product is going to be released for the Gold subscription version (not the standard version) then, obviously, you would have to have the Gold subscription version to be a beta tester. When, or if, that new product then becomes available for non-subscribers in the next version of Trainz (lets say TRS21) then I would suspect that they would need non-subscription beta testers for that. I still don't see how offering a premium product to those who want and can afford it is a "discriminatory class system".

Christopher824 said:

I love that you want to fix everything, as every new version should, but again I will give you my thoughts. I will never buy into the subscription ideology. Give me something i can 'Buy' and I will buy it, own it, pass it down, etc.

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Again I have no arguments with someone exercising their rights to make a free choice. Although I would quibble with the "own it, pass it down" part according to the terms and conditions contract you agreed to when you installed Trainz.

shaneturner12 said:

To be fair N3V did mention about Trainz Plus in the FAQs when TRS19 was released Coble.

Shane

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Yes I'm aware and I commented about it then also. Doesn't change the fact that the only subscription model posed in pre-release was the multiplayer surveyor (which I agree with Paul probably wasn't shown a ton of interest, I myself probably wouldnt/wont utilize it) and despite many users stating their disdain of anything subscription-based, we ended up with this. We already had first-class tickets to satisfy N3Vs subscription desires.

Pware, free enterprise has to do with government control and competition, doesn't mean a company does whatever it wants and consumers just pony up the cash and say it's great? The free choice is to go to a competitor offering a better option which decisions like this may lead some to do. I was just calling out the condescending marketing talk, as something paid for is not free. But that's as much a reply I'll give for someone implying that service packs and hotfixes to have a program work as it was originally intended/advertised SHOULD be paid for separately. Not to mention, though I don't mind a $70 USD price tag on a train simulator, it is definitely a premium price already, especially when their main competitors product is currently well under half that.

coble12 said:

.. free enterprise has to do with government control and competition

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That is not the definition I that learned in Economics. I think what you actually mean there is "regulation".

coble12 said:

doesn't mean a company does whatever it wants and consumers just pony up the cash and say it's great? The free choice is to go to a competitor offering a better option which decisions like this may lead some to do.

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That is exactly my point. If customers do not like what N3V are charging or offering then they are free to go elsewhere, but I do not see any evidence of that happening so it seems that N3V have considered their price points and product features carefully.

coble12 said:

But that's as much a reply I'll give for someone implying that service packs and hotfixes to have a program work as it was originally intended/advertised SHOULD be paid.

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You missed my point there, perhaps I did not explain it clearly enough. SPs and HFs are FREE once you have purchased the program - unlike a very well known company who used to charge their users for SPs under the guise that they were "upgrades". SPs and HFs, free or not, from every software developer are usually always "fixes" to make the software "work as intended" so N3V is not alone in this. In an ideal world every software product would come "out of the box" without any bugs and work perfectly on every possible hardware configuration. Sadly we do not live in an ideal world.

coble12 said:

... though I don't mind a $70 USD price tag on a train simulator, it is definitely a premium price already when their main competitors product is currently under $30.

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Again that is free enterprise and competition. Consumers will make their own choice.

• Trainz Native Interface (allows 3rd party tools)
  • Physics Support
  • Sound Support
  • Surveyor Tools**

The idea of 3rd party Surveyor tools interest me very much but I get the feeling that that is not what’s being implied here.