Which has a higher learning curve: steam locomotive or D/E engine to learn to operate

J

JonMyrlennBailey

Active member
It seems like they were called locomotive "engineers" because it may have taken an engineering degree to make one of these mothers run.

This engine seems like very temperamental machine that takes a ton of constant baby-sitting down the line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vogL3LL8Q

At UP in 2019, you have to take a crummy position like brakeman, switchman or even conductor to be promoted to engineer on a modern D/E engine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4loypZNHeY
 
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Definitely a steam locomotive has a higher learning curve.
some points : Wheelslip to control manually,a regulator with no set notches , reversor with many positions to negotiate, steam pressure and water level to monitor all the time, restricted view , smoke and soot , manual sand operation, manual cylinder cock operation, maintenance like greasing, oiling and examination, manual controls like the lubricator, turret spindles and wheels , blowdown cock, blower, injectors , ejectors and many more to mention still.
 
In Trainz, running a steam loco, and manually adjusting all the CAB controls, would be downright next to impossible, as you would have boiler explosions, low water, running out of coal/oil ... So AI, or running in DCC, might be the best choice ... as we are not "State Certified High Pressure Steam Boiler" engineers, (which steam locomotive crews were)

Even understanding how a diesel/electric loco runs, and is maintained, is a years long training program ... As we are really just untrained "raifans", and knowing how to "Engineer" a locomotive is a daunting task, as if we were thrown into the "real" job, your loco would seize up, overheat, and burn out traction motors, and become out of control, improperly braked runaway train, as most novices have absolutely no training, nor any real knowledge in a certified diesel engine block/electrical generator, air brake engineering degree

Run them in Trainz, and have fun ... Because if you were actually running a real locomotive, you would absolutely destroy a million dollar machine, running it right into the ground
 
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An engine driver here in New Zealand was asked what he thought about being changed over to diesels from steam and his comment was, 'They're trams, just turn the handle and they go.' Years of skill acquired driving steam engines and now he had to drive a 'tram'.
 
cascaderailroad said:
In Trainz, running a steam loco, and manually adjusting all the CAB controls, would be downright next to impossible, as you would have boiler explosions, low water, running out of coal/oil ... So AI, or running in DCC, might be the best choice ... as we are not "State Certified High Pressure Steam Boiler" engineers, (which steam locomotive crews were)

Even understanding how a diesel/electric loco runs, and is maintained, is a years long training program ... As we are really just untrained "raifans", and knowing how to "Engineer" a locomotive is a daunting task, as if we were thrown into the "real" job, your loco would seize up, overheat, and burn out traction motors, and become out of control, improperly braked runaway train, as most novices have absolutely no training, nor any real knowledge in a certified diesel engine block/electrical generator, air brake engineering degree

Run them in Trainz, and have fun ... Because if you were actually running a real locomotive, you would absolutely destroy a million dollar machine, running it right into the ground
Click to expand...

I would think the most modern D/E engines would have a lot of advanced electronics onboard to minimize the risk of equipment damage due to human error.

Idiot lights to warn of overheating traction motors and whatnot. Failsafes. Idiot lights for low oil pressure, etc. Buzzers to warn of low brake air pressure.

Think of the instrument panel of a car.
 
The "Common Everyday Idiot" would have absolutely no chance of ever operating a locomotive, let alone handling a loaded 137 car train, without totally destroying everything ... So you should have absolutely no need to worry yourself about overcoming that steep learning curve, as you will never ever be allowed to drive a loco, as you are just a common ordinary railfan

So when you are on the Kicking Horse Pass-Spiral Tunnels, in the middle of nowhere, and all the idiot lights in the cab brightly illuminate all around you, and every "you have just screwed up royally" warning buzzer goes off ... what are you going to do when the PC shows: you are out of sand, have no radiator water, the train brakes will not function, and you are out of fuel

If you have no actual training, and will never obtain any training ... what difference will it ever make "How steep is the learning curve" question is ... It's kind of pointless as an 80 y/o man asking: "How hard is it to drive the Space Shuttle ?
 
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cascaderailroad said:
The "Common Everyday Idiot" would have absolutely no chance of ever operating a locomotive, let alone handling a loaded 137 car train, without totally destroying everything ... So you should have no need to worry yourself about overcoming that steep learning curve, as you will never ever be allowed to drive a loco, as you are just a common ordinary railfan
Click to expand...

One year Norfolk Southern had their Exhibit Car at an event at the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum which had an on-board a simulator, complete with Ex-EMD GP38-2 control stand. Of course there was a bunch of little kids wanting to try the simulator. Every single one did the same thing: immediately put the throttle in Notch 8 and drive it as fast as possible. When I did the simulator, I did it the same way I did it in Trainz: slowly increase the throttle and slowly decrease it when it was time to bring the train to stop using the dynamic brakes. I even identified a signal as Medium Approach and reduce the throttle setting after passing the signal. There were two Norfolk Southern employees watching everyone do the simulator and I said aloud when I sat down in the seat of the simulator "where's the independent brake handle? Where's the train brake handle also?" Anyway, after the simulator was over, I turned to the two employees and asked "based on what you've seen, would do you think?" One of them replied "I'd hire you."
 
From my limited driving experience, driving a kettle is more challenging than a diesel and neither are anything like driving a loco in Trainz. As a fireman, I'm reminded of something one elderly steam driver told me, 'without a good fireman, it doesn't matter how well you can drive a steam engine'. It takes a team of 2 competent people to drive a steam loco, albeit, only one is starting and stopping it.
 
I was an American soldier for seven years. Surely, I have the learning capability to be trained for proper operation of a railway engine. I'm sure each manufacturer supplies the engine with the proper maintenance and operation manuals. Both airline pilots and train locomotive engineers require proper training. The complex thing about railroad work is all the hoop-jumping and bureaucracy with the corporation that hires you.

That American railroad technology is so mickey-mouse and medieval that an Amtrak train would derail and kill people in modern times with all this digital computing available because a river barge bumped a bridge and displaced the track a few inches and the signal still showed a false clear signal, green, is embarrassing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBeg56ccNfY
 
Well ... Good luck with obtaining that career choice of a lifetime ... We'll be standing by the phone in anticipation, of the good news, when hired
 
A trucking company is more likely to hire me than a RR, however. I would most likely operate a semi.
You most likely have to know somebody on the inside of a RR to get hired. I would not like the jobs
that new RR employees get anyway before they graduate to engineer as if it were a revered position.

I'm not much for being out in the freezing snow or baking sun all day long. I was much younger and much tougher
and could take that in the army, though. I prefer all the comforts a modern truck tractor pulling a dry van or reefer with
cold a/c, cab heat and an in-dash music player. I'm sure the latest train engines have most if not all those cabin comforts too.

I do have 7-years diesel truck driving and mechanic experience in the service. The army's trucks were by no means equipped
with such luxuries as cabin a/c and plush interior, however. I drove an army truck wintertime Germany without even a damn cab heater!
 
JonMyrlennBailey said:
I was an American soldier for seven years. Surely, I have the learning capability to be trained for proper operation of a railway engine. I'm sure each manufacturer supplies the engine with the proper maintenance and operation manuals. Both airline pilots and train locomotive engineers require proper training. The complex thing about railroad work is all the hoop-jumping and bureaucracy with the corporation that hires you.

That American railroad technology is so mickey-mouse and medieval that an Amtrak train would derail and kill people in modern times with all this digital computing available because a river barge bumped a bridge and displaced the track a few inches and the signal still showed a false clear signal, green, is embarrassing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBeg56ccNfY
Click to expand...

If you read the NTSB report on this accident, you'll see that this issue was caused by the rails being just enough to be out of alignment, but not enough to break the signal wires at the joints. The failsafe is if the rail joints are broken or a signal detector line is broken, the signal will drop to red so the system was working as it's supposed to, and is the same system used worldwide and not just here in the US.

The same out of alignment issue has been caused by severe heat causing expansion and even earthquakes. In general the normal practice for a railroad is to send out a track inspector to investigate track problems if they are aware there is a problem, such as after a flood or severe heatwave, for example, but, if there is no warning that there's a problem, there is no way to report one and accidents will occur.

The Amtrak engines derailing on curves and at high speeds, referring to other accidents, is all about operator error. No matter how much monitoring and electronics are in the locomotive, if the operator deliberately or inadvertently goes above and beyond the operating conditions allowed, the train will derail. With the advent of PTC, which our railroads are stalling and balking at installing, these kinds of accidents would not occur because this additional failsafe will automatically trigger an engine shutdown and put the train into emergency.
 
American railroads are dinosaurs. They are stubborn (or cheap) about modernizing. It takes acts of Congress to bend their will and drain their bankroll some to advance safety. Some sophisticated means of detecting bridge strikes from river barges and boats and ships and warning approaching trains fast is needed.

There should be no more derailed trains because stupid humans set switches wrong too. Is there a possible failsafe against wrong switch setting?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...arolina/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b396bb81c90a
 
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JonMyrlennBailey said:
American railroad technology is so mickey-mouse and medieval that an Amtrak train would derail and kill people in modern times with all this digital computing available because a river barge bumped a bridge and displaced the track a few inches and the signal still showed a false clear signal, green, is embarrassing. American railroads are dinosaurs. They are stubborn (or cheap) about modernizing. It takes acts of Congress to bend their will and drain their bankroll some to advance safety. Some sophisticated means of detecting bridge strikes from river barges and boats and ships and warning approaching trains fast is needed.

There should be no more derailed trains because stupid humans set switches wrong too. Is there a possible failsafe against wrong switch setting?

A trucking company is more likely to hire me than a RR, however. I would most likely operate a semi.
You most likely have to know somebody on the inside of a RR to get hired. I would not like the jobs
that new RR employees get anyway before they graduate to engineer as if it were a revered position.

I'm not much for being out in the freezing snow or baking sun all day long. I was much younger and much tougher and could take that in the army, though. I prefer all the comforts a modern truck tractor pulling a dry van or reefer with cold a/c, cab heat and an in-dash music player. I'm sure the latest train engines have most if not all those cabin comforts too.
Click to expand...
And then ... the thread goes rambling off topic ... and slides downhill, on a rainy day

 
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