I don't know if this could be a proper example of what happens when a company sells games with a digital-only license. Just Read it and think what would happen if N3V, for example, decides to shutdown the servers where the DRM games are hosted => https://www.gameinformer.com/psa/2019/01/23/the-wii-shop-channel-closes-forever-next-week
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DVD version
- Thread starter peterwhite
- Start date
I don't know if this could be a proper example of what happens when a company sells games with a digital-only license. Just Read it and think what would happen if N3V, for example, decides to shutdown the servers where the DRM games are hosted => https://www.gameinformer.com/psa/2019/01/23/the-wii-shop-channel-closes-forever-next-week
Reading the link to Nintendos Wii site where the announcement (March 2018) was originally made, it appears that their services are being transferred from their Wii Shop Channel (whatever that is) to the Nintendo eShop (whatever that is) as most customers (according to Nintendo in March 2018) had already made the transition. So it is not actually a termination of all previously supplied services although any users who are still using the Wii Shop Channel and had accumulated "points" there have until Jan 30 to use those points (I don't know why the points could not be transferred).
But you are correct in the intention of your post. If a company that provides a digital Internet service decides to "shut up shop" then, with or without DRM, their remaining clients are "stuffed".
We've been lucky with the Trainz franchise to have it remain viable for as long as we have. This is a rare animal in today's throw away, toss away society regardless of DRM or not. In my collection of software, and computer hardware, for example, I have piles upon piles of floppies, CDs, DVDs, and downloads, of programs, games, utilities, and even operating systems, which are no longer useful. That's only the software mind you. The stacks of various old hard disk controllers, video cards, sound cards, floppy controllers, SCSI controllers, and SCSI hard drives isn't so small either. The most expensive of these, the SCSI drives, work fine and so do the SCSI controllers, but there is no hardware to plug them into. At near $400 apiece for the
With that in mind, I look at it this way. This isn't a perfect system we're dealing with here, but at least what we have is still working. At this point we never know what the future will bring, especially with computers and software. Trainz, as we know it, all parts included as we have them, maybe 100% obsolete sooner than later because there's no supporting operating system, let alone the hardware to run it.
DRM as we see it was instituted after the DLS theft. People have disagreed with this statement, but it was pretty obvious when that occurred things changed into the direction we have now. We also have a user community that asked for protections for their retail products, and although the system is flawed, it works, and as always there's room for improvement.
Instead of just kvetching about the problems, we should ask that these bothersome things get addressed. Perhaps if we come up with a concrete, well etched in sandstone rather than concrete, list that we can present to Tony Hilliam and the rest of the Brew Crew to look at, maybe some of those suggestions will be acted on. We already have a start with the ability to edit built-in and DLC routes, but there are other things that can go further than that.
But all in all. We have to keep in mind as much as this has been a long ride, a lifetime for many users here in some cases, and a century in computer software, we need to enjoy it while it lasts because like everything in the real world, nothing is forever. DRM or not.
9GB hard disk,
paltry by today's standards, it's kind of difficult to pull them apart for their magnets and bearings.With that in mind, I look at it this way. This isn't a perfect system we're dealing with here, but at least what we have is still working. At this point we never know what the future will bring, especially with computers and software. Trainz, as we know it, all parts included as we have them, maybe 100% obsolete sooner than later because there's no supporting operating system, let alone the hardware to run it.
DRM as we see it was instituted after the DLS theft. People have disagreed with this statement, but it was pretty obvious when that occurred things changed into the direction we have now. We also have a user community that asked for protections for their retail products, and although the system is flawed, it works, and as always there's room for improvement.
Instead of just kvetching about the problems, we should ask that these bothersome things get addressed. Perhaps if we come up with a concrete, well etched in sandstone rather than concrete, list that we can present to Tony Hilliam and the rest of the Brew Crew to look at, maybe some of those suggestions will be acted on. We already have a start with the ability to edit built-in and DLC routes, but there are other things that can go further than that.
But all in all. We have to keep in mind as much as this has been a long ride, a lifetime for many users here in some cases, and a century in computer software, we need to enjoy it while it lasts because like everything in the real world, nothing is forever. DRM or not.
peterwhite
Steam Rules OK
Just resurrecting this thread to see if I can get a definitive answer form N3V.
Will you be producing a DRM free DVD for TRS2019 as you did for T:ANE.
Peter
Will you be producing a DRM free DVD for TRS2019 as you did for T:ANE.
Peter
As TRS2019 is based on TANE it is only fair that Kickstarter supporters are entitled to a DRM free version of TRS2019.
At present my TANE version is permanentally online but if I wanted to install this on a non internet PC then this wouldn't be possible. Although at some point in the discussion it has been said that in the event of N3V closing down the DRM code would be released what if a competitor bought N3V with the sole intention of removing the competition.
Ken
At present my TANE version is permanentally online but if I wanted to install this on a non internet PC then this wouldn't be possible. Although at some point in the discussion it has been said that in the event of N3V closing down the DRM code would be released what if a competitor bought N3V with the sole intention of removing the competition.
Ken
We've been lucky with the Trainz franchise to have it remain viable for as long as we have. This is a rare animal in today's throw away, toss away society regardless of DRM or not. In my collection of software, and computer hardware, for example, I have piles upon piles of floppies, CDs, DVDs, and downloads, of programs, games, utilities, and even operating systems, which are no longer useful. That's only the software mind you. The stacks of various old hard disk controllers, video cards, sound cards, floppy controllers, SCSI controllers, and SCSI hard drives isn't so small either. The most expensive of these, the SCSI drives, work fine and so do the SCSI controllers, but there is no hardware to plug them into. At near $400 apiece for the9GB hard disk,paltry by today's standards, it's kind of difficult to pull them apart for their magnets and bearings.
With that in mind, I look at it this way. This isn't a perfect system we're dealing with here, but at least what we have is still working. At this point we never know what the future will bring, especially with computers and software. Trainz, as we know it, all parts included as we have them, maybe 100% obsolete sooner than later because there's no supporting operating system, let alone the hardware to run it.
DRM as we see it was instituted after the DLS theft. People have disagreed with this statement, but it was pretty obvious when that occurred things changed into the direction we have now. We also have a user community that asked for protections for their retail products, and although the system is flawed, it works, and as always there's room for improvement.
Instead of just kvetching about the problems, we should ask that these bothersome things get addressed. Perhaps if we come up with a concrete, well etched in sandstone rather than concrete, list that we can present to Tony Hilliam and the rest of the Brew Crew to look at, maybe some of those suggestions will be acted on. We already have a start with the ability to edit built-in and DLC routes, but there are other things that can go further than that.
But all in all. We have to keep in mind as much as this has been a long ride, a lifetime for many users here in some cases, and a century in computer software, we need to enjoy it while it lasts because like everything in the real world, nothing is forever. DRM or not.
Fair enough as far as it goes, but it's not about the merits or otherwise of DRM. It's about choice: whether one wants non-DRM - with its limitations - or not. Luckily, the choice is not as stark as it may seem. TANE SP3 (but wary of what SP4 may contain) is a perfectly acceptable alternative to Tr2019 DRM.
Ultimately it's about goodwill - the economics are paltry. Are Trainzers there just to be exploited or is there a genuine community?
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hiawathamr
DLC developer for Trainz
I think SP3 HF1 is going to be the last update as TANE's support ends May of they year (2019) http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/Trainz_Life-Cycle_PolicyTANE SP3 (but wary of what SP4 may contain)
Peace
If they are sticking to the support dates then I can't see why an earth they would bother with the current Beta test? Probably will get extended as things have been in the past.
TS12 support expired in October according to the list but uploads are still being accepted without any messages about out of support, therefore doesn't look like its unsupported yet.
TS12 support expired in October according to the list but uploads are still being accepted without any messages about out of support, therefore doesn't look like its unsupported yet.
If they are sticking to the support dates then I can't see why an earth they would bother with the current Beta test?
Except that they did make a very clear and firm promise that there would be another update to TANE. By not keeping that promise, regardless of the end of support date, there would be a lot of anger and some considerable loss of faith.
hiawathamr
DLC developer for Trainz
For updates, yes it is unsupported, but since they are still selling it (could be removed anytime really), its still considered support as in serial number issues, DLS connection, etc, but for receiving updates, noTS12 support expired in October according to the list but uploads are still being accepted without any messages about out of support, therefore doesn't look like its unsupported yet.
Yeah, even if the game went past, fulfilling the promise is important, as if you decide to not release the update to the general puclic, then there goes possible future sales as the company would start(?) to have the history of not keeping promises.pware said:Except that they did make a very clear and firm promise that there would be another update to TANE. By not keeping that promise, regardless of the end of support date, there would be a lot of anger and some considerable loss of faith.
Peace
Tony_Hilliam
Trainz Plus - enjoy Trainz from just 20 cents a da
Not at this stage. One reason is that having 8 different versions of TANE (including combinations DRM, Standard, Deluxe, Steam, App Store) meant a huge overhead for releasing a single patch. I'm not getting into a discussion about all the other reasons.Will you be producing a DRM free DVD for TRS2019 as you did for T:ANE.
We will reaffirm out commitment that, in the highly unlikely event of the demise of N3V, we will do our best to provide access to the various Trainz versions that exist at that time. (The reason I don't give a cast iron guarantee is that one of the currently more likely events that would cause this scenario is that all the Trainz team are killed in plane crash for example - that would really kill our development potential!).
Also, I can confirm that there will be at least one more public updaate for TANE and support for TANE will be extended beyond 2019, probably for another year or two.
Well, then that seals the deal: I won't be buying TRS19 or developing content for it. Frankly, I'm even less willing to create for previous versions at this point.
The problem with the excessive number of builds IS N3V's commitment to DRM. This could have been knocked down to 1 or 2 builds, maybe 3, even with a DRM version in the mix. But the Kickstarter DRM-free versions were their own builds, then you've got Standard versus Deluxe, etc. It was a problem of N3V's own making, on several levels.
P.S. Why should we trust N3V to "provide access to the various Trainz versions that exist at that time"? Since N3V distrusts us customers enough to implement whole-game DRM, why should we trust you?
The problem with the excessive number of builds IS N3V's commitment to DRM. This could have been knocked down to 1 or 2 builds, maybe 3, even with a DRM version in the mix. But the Kickstarter DRM-free versions were their own builds, then you've got Standard versus Deluxe, etc. It was a problem of N3V's own making, on several levels.
P.S. Why should we trust N3V to "provide access to the various Trainz versions that exist at that time"? Since N3V distrusts us customers enough to implement whole-game DRM, why should we trust you?
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narrowgauge
92 year oldTrainz veteran
Tony
Have you considered my suggestion in #8 above? It seems to be feasible as it does not require program changes and applies equally well to all versions. All the data transfer functions are contained in the app. It does not replace DRM but it does allow people to work in an off-net environment which seemed to be the main reason behind this thread.
Peter
Have you considered my suggestion in #8 above? It seems to be feasible as it does not require program changes and applies equally well to all versions. All the data transfer functions are contained in the app. It does not replace DRM but it does allow people to work in an off-net environment which seemed to be the main reason behind this thread.
Peter
Not at this stage. One reason is that having 8 different versions of TANE (including combinations DRM, Standard, Deluxe, Steam, App Store) meant a huge overhead for releasing a single patch. I'm not getting into a discussion about all the other reasons.
Snip~ .
The DRM free version could only be the bought deluxe version (kickstarter equivalent) it cannot possibly relate to the subscription versions as these rely on internet access for their benefits as do the Steam versions so using that as an excuse doesn't make sense.
Ken
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peterwhite
Steam Rules OK
Not at this stage. One reason is that having 8 different versions of TANE (including combinations DRM, Standard, Deluxe, Steam, App Store) meant a huge overhead for releasing a single patch. I'm not getting into a discussion about all the other reasons.
We will reaffirm out commitment that, in the highly unlikely event of the demise of N3V, we will do our best to provide access to the various Trainz versions that exist at that time. (The reason I don't give a cast iron guarantee is that one of the currently more likely events that would cause this scenario is that all the Trainz team are killed in plane crash for example - that would really kill our development potential!).
Also, I can confirm that there will be at least one more public updaate for TANE and support for TANE will be extended beyond 2019, probably for another year or two.
And I,too, will be sticking with T:ANE as I am more than happy with it in it's present state.
To put a counter point to this "doom and gloom", I am quite happy with the DRM version of TANE and TRS19 and I will continue to support N3V by producing content.
N3V could keep everybody happy by producing just the one version of TRS2019 DRM free for those kickstarter supporters.
Ken
N3V could keep everybody happy by producing just the one version of TRS2019 DRM free for those kickstarter supporters.
There was no Kickstarter for TRS19 and what about all those who were not TANE Kickstarter supporters? And when the first TRS19 SP1 rolls out does the "one version" then become a new "TRS19 SP1 DRM free version" (for those supporters only)? This sounds like the old English class system in action. As Tony pointed out how many different version builds do they have to maintain and at what cost?
There was no Kickstarter for TRS19 and what about all those who were not TANE Kickstarter supporters? And when the first TRS19 SP1 rolls out does the "one version" then become a new "TRS19 SP1 DRM free version" (for those supporters only)? This sounds like the old English class system in action. As Tony pointed out how many different version builds do they have to maintain and at what cost?
It is not the class system but an acknowledgement that the kickstarter supporters paved the way for TANE on which TRS2019.is based. Yes I agree it is a very tenuous connection but N3V do value loyalty.
Ken
Well, then that seals the deal: I won't be buying TRS19 or developing content for it. Frankly, I'm even less willing to create for previous versions at this point.
I'm totally with you as far as not buying a non-DRM version of TS2019. However, I do hope that you will continue to create content for previous versions. Your signals are superb and fill a major gap in US-based assets. I suspect that quite a few will continue to use TANE (or earlier) for quite some time.
--Lamont
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