DVD version

peterwhite

Steam Rules OK
Will the DVD version be DRM free as I wish to install it on a PC that does not have an internet connection.
If it needs to 'phone home' every 30 days it will be of no use to me.

Thanks
Peter
 
How are you going to download new assets into Trainz without connecting to the internet … The DRM Free version is not really DRM Free, It still has DRM … It just has a switch to turn off the internet connection, which is just like pulling out your Ethernet cable … You can't have DRM if you are not connected to the internet ... So it is FREE from DRM, while not connected to the internet :cool: Once you connect to the internet you are DRM'ed, until you turn on/off the internet switch tick mark
 
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How are you going to download new assets into Trainz without connecting to the internet … The DRM Free version is not really DRM Free, It still has DRM … It just has a switch to turn off the internet connection, which is just like pulling out your Ethernet cable … You can't have DRM if you are not connected to the internet ... So it is FREE from DRM, while not connected to the internet :cool: Once you connect to the internet you are DRM'ed, until you turn on/off the internet switch tick mark

It still needs to 'phone home' every thirty days to verify who you are and if you are a valid user. The DRM free version doesn't.....
And it would have great difficulty doing that without internet.

And my question was 'will the DVD be DRM free' which you have failed to answer, as usual, so I will wait for someone from N3V with more knowledge than you to give me the answer.
 
I can't answer your question either but I did have the DRM free version of TANE (or was it TS12??) for a while but switched back to the DRM'd version because it was simply easier to use. I understand that not everyone is permanently connected to the Internet and a DRM free version can be important for that reason alone.

How could the DRM'd version be easier to use? As Cascade said you could turn off the Internet connectivity and it would not attempt to "phone home". But when you tried to access the DLS via CM you needed to turn that connectivity back on and then it would spend some considerable time re-validating all your downloaded DLC assets (and, I assumed, the built in assets as well) before you could do anything else. That was a pain particularly since I was often checking the DLS for new content.

While I understand that the DRM'd version may not be suitable for you, and probably for some others, for users who have a permanent and stable Internet connection "DRM free" is a non issue. I also understand that there are some individuals who are concerned about DRM and privacy, but those who hold that view not be using the Internet, mobile (cell) phones, credit or debit cards, banks, walking in the street, etc, etc.
 
Will the DVD version be DRM free as I wish to install it on a PC that does not have an internet connection.
If it needs to 'phone home' every 30 days it will be of no use to me.

Thanks
Peter

When I asked n3v about that, I was told there will be a dvd version, but it won't be DRM free (both core files and the built-in) unless there is a high demand for it. So from my understanding, it'll require internet regardless on how you order the game. Maybe things will change soon if the demand is high enough like how tane was...
Peace
 
When I asked n3v about that, I was told there will be a dvd version, but it won't be DRM free (both core files and the built-in) unless there is a high demand for it. So from my understanding, it'll require internet regardless on how you order the game. Maybe things will change soon if the demand is high enough like how tane was...
Peace

If that is the case then I will be sticking to TANE.
At the moment I run two copies of TANE, one on a laptop which will not run it but I can still download from the DLS, and one on a desktop that runs it perfectly but has no means of connecting to the internet, hence the need for a DRM free version.

And how will they know if the demand is high unless they ask the question, which I don't think they have done. Unless I missed it.
 
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Perhaps there could be a simple alternative that would satisfy both parties. It would require a small program that runs from a thumb drive.

Once a month, this local program running in the thumb drive on the off-net machine would request the user details that are now used to confirm ownership. The thumb drive would then be transferred to a internet connected machine, and the new data would then be uploaded to N3V, the details thus sent are confirmed by N3V and a confirmation key is returned to the user and saved to the thumb drive which then is used to transfer the new code to T:ane.

As I see it, this need not require any changes to T:ane or 2019 and would solve the problem.

Just a thought.

Peter
 
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At that point one might as well switch to a method involving downloading and creating hardware usb keys

That would work but as it would probably require changes to the main game code, it would come at a cost.

The method I suggest would not require any code changes to the game program as the new program would be reading and replacing data already recorded, which would be that which is sent and received in the existing method. Effectively, it becomes a replacement for the existing data exchange over the internet.

Isolated game computer > thumbdrive > 2nd computer > internet > N3V > internet > 2nd computer > thumbdrive > isolated game computer.

Five minutes once a month and everyone is happy. No need to recode the game program.

Peter
 
Perhaps this might work?

install to a USB3 external drive or SSD and just run it from the online to activate then move back to the off line PC.
Theory is that as I can actually run my backup installs from the same USB drive plugged into either of my main PCs, so long as the drive letter is the same, the Userdata is on that drive and not in the default location and matches the user-redirect-map.txt in appdata, it works without having to re-input passwords, username or settings, so if as I suspect the activated flag data or whatever is in the install rather than the registry it might work! Really needs to be USB3 though USB2 would probably work just take longer to load.
 
It is an eventuality that software will no longer be available on any type of physical medium to us that we can put in our hands. The only physical medium will be the server centers around the world. All our devices will connect to them and we will retrieve our 'Stuff' from them.

So I sit here with three computers in front of me and none have any moving parts except fans, and my data is is over two thousands of miles away from me. When I restart my rig, it has to retrieve the data from the remote server. Do I really have my data, who has it?

The cable company says they have the best download speeds. The fiber company says the have the best upload speeds. What do I need?

DRM or Digital Rights Management..

Digital rights management (DRM) is a systematic approach to copyright protection for digital media. The purpose of DRM is to prevent unauthorized redistribution of digital media and restrict the ways consumers can copy content they've purchased.

If you have a DVD and it has software on it and you are able to install it. You can let anyone you know use the disc, and it defeats the DRM. You will see that the DVD will no longer be. You will have to buy (use) your software from some type of online purchase. As DRM evolves, you will see less physical media, and more 'Cloud' 'Online Server' based media, and you will have less ability to let your friends 'Use / Borrow' you media.

Going forward, I don't think that you will be able to buy much physical medium any more.
 
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Perhaps this might work?

install to a USB3 external drive or SSD and just run it from the online to activate then move back to the off line PC.
Theory is that as I can actually run my backup installs from the same USB drive plugged into either of my main PCs, so long as the drive letter is the same, the Userdata is on that drive and not in the default location and matches the user-redirect-map.txt in appdata, it works without having to re-input passwords, username or settings, so if as I suspect the activated flag data or whatever is in the install rather than the registry it might work! Really needs to be USB3 though USB2 would probably work just take longer to load.

I do that all the time. It works great.

I have a USB2 external Thermaltake Black Box I got about 11 years ago. It works by plugging in what are otherwise internal drives into the buss connector located inside the bay, and then plugging in the USB cable into the PC or Mac. The drive mounts and becomes just another hard disk on the system. I got it initially to read other drives and as a data recovery device, and it has worked well for that when I've had to recover other people's drives when I brought it into work for that purpose. Being retired now, I use it mostly to plug in my desktop's Trainz data drive, and use that with my laptop. This has worked well when I've traveled and don't have access to my home desktop computer, and when my desktop was down for some reason.

Being a USB2 device, it is a bit slow but usable. There's a bit of a delay loading up routes and saving, but once up and running TRS19 is fine. At some point, I plan on upgrading to a USB3 Black Box when I get some extra cash.

(In case you're wondering... Yes I make backups of my data diligently so losing the drive while a pain doesn't mean my content will be gone).
 
Malc and John.

I have a feeling that what you describe could be construed as doing something to work around the N3V DRM protection system. If N3V had deliberately made what you propose possible, then why not forget about protection and make all their software DRM free. Conversely, if they were serious about protection, they should have recorded machine details when the software is installed so that it would only run on that machine. They allow us to run more than one copy, we should not be using that freedom to evade their DRM.

Peter
 
Using a USB stick as proposed above does nothing to address the fact that, when the activation server becomes unavailable, you lose access to your product and any content in contains. POOF.

DRM really has little to do with preventing piracy. The ultimate goal is forced/planned obsolescence of otherwise usable software. It's no accident that most if not nearly all the software industry who have implemented it, have either moved to subscription models, or are trying to. That's the ultimate goal, and Trainz has proven no different.

There is another benefit to a DRM-free Trainz that many here don't realize. Without an internet connection, there is no appreciable need for anti-virus software, firewalls, etc. There's little worse for PC performance than security software, because it must inspect every file operation, every packet, and even intra-memory ops. The network connection itself can eat up a lot of resources, particularly on Windows, as the OS itself is constantly polling network devices for status.

It wasn't that long ago, when T:ANE was first released, that these forums were filled with users running high-end rigs, often with GTX970s or 980s, but getting atrocious framerates. Given that rather horrible reputation T:ANE acquired as a result of this, you'd think that N3V would do whatever they could to improve the game. And they did, by releasing a DRM-free version and by optimizing the code better.

Obviously, now, a well-performing product is less-important than N3V's commitment to the subscription model.
 
It looks like the beginning of another one of those pointless arguments.

Using a USB stick as proposed above does nothing to address the fact that, when the activation server becomes unavailable, you lose access to your product and any content in contains. POOF.

Totally agree with you there. Any sort of internet outage, local, regional, national or even a sustained DDoS attack will disrupt the process. Which raises the interesting point of why have Cloud services become so popular when they all have this obvious vulnerability? The answer is that the service they provide is worth the risk (assuming you had a choice). I happily use two cloud services, MS One Drive and my own personal cloud server as a Network Attached Storage device. Both give me access to files that I don't have to carry with me on my travels. Now DRM is not cloud storage but the vulnerability argument counts against them both. It is a risk that I am prepared to take for the convenience. The possible loss of Trainz server access really does not bother me as it is hardly a life or death matter and the financial outlay from purchasing Trainz is small. I can move on if necessary.

DRM really has little to do with preventing piracy. The ultimate goal is forced/planned obsolescence of otherwise usable software. It's no accident that most if not nearly all the software industry who have implemented it, have either moved to subscription models, or are trying to. That's the ultimate goal, and Trainz has proven no different.

That is an interesting argument and I would love to know where it came from as it does not appear anywhere that I have looked on this issue. It sounds more like a "conspiracy theory". The most common and realistic arguments against DRM, are that:-

  • it is a restriction on free trade (although that definition of "free trade" does seem to include the "right to piracy")
  • it causes problems for legitimate consumers while trying to protect creative rights from misuse by illegitimate consumers (an argument that I personally like)
  • it over complicates the software and increases the likelihood of problems
  • it can be a barrier to those users who do not have a reliable or permanent network connection (a good argument to use here)

There is another benefit to a DRM-free Trainz that many here don't realize. Without an internet connection, there is no appreciable need for anti-virus software, firewalls, etc.

Firewalls perhaps not, but I would never recommend that a computer do without AV software. Having worked with computers for a long time in the pre-Internet era, viruses were a constant problem when "floppy nets" (transfer of data between computers via floppy disks) were often the "network of choice".

There's little worse for PC performance than security software, because it must inspect every file operation, every packet, and even intra-memory ops. The network connection itself can eat up a lot of resources, particularly on Windows, as the OS itself is constantly polling network devices for status.

Years ago that was a problem. I even posted in these forums a detailed set of instructions on how you could improve the fps (even though we did not know that term back then) by switching off various OS processes (do you really need the OS to be polling email, print, and a host of other services that you would be very unlikely to be using while playing TRS2004?). Today I don't bother. My current system is streets ahead in terms of speed, multi-threading, multitasking, multi-dancing, etc than the old "clunker" I was using back then.

Obviously, now, a well-performing product is less-important than N3V's commitment to the subscription model.

Obviously a "throw away parting shot". Where is your evidence for that?
 
Totally agree with you there. Any sort of internet outage, local, regional, national or even a sustained DDoS attack will disrupt the process. Which raises the interesting point of why have Cloud services become so popular when they all have this obvious vulnerability? The answer is that the service they provide is worth the risk (assuming you had a choice). I happily use two cloud services, MS One Drive and my own personal cloud server as a Network Attached Storage device. Both give me access to files that I don't have to carry with me on my travels. Now DRM is not cloud storage but the vulnerability argument counts against them both. It is a risk that I am prepared to take for the convenience. The possible loss of Trainz server access really does not bother me as it is hardly a life or death matter and the financial outlay from purchasing Trainz is small. I can move on if necessary.

It's not about the cost of Trainz: It's about losing hundreds or thousands of hours of work building your route, your sessions, and your content because N3V pulled the plug on the activation server.

Moreover, if you were to cost that out in terms of dollars per hour spent, many of us would be well into the 5- or 6-figures.


That is an interesting argument and I would love to know where it came from as it does not appear anywhere that I have looked on this issue. It sounds more like a "conspiracy theory". The most common and realistic arguments against DRM, are that:-

  • it is a restriction on free trade (although that definition of "free trade" does seem to include the "right to piracy")
  • it causes problems for legitimate consumers while trying to protect creative rights from misuse by illegitimate consumers (an argument that I personally like)
  • it over complicates the software and increases the likelihood of problems
  • it can be a barrier to those users who do not have a reliable or permanent network connection (a good argument to use here)

It's based on the fact that other members of the software industry use DRM to enforce planned obsolescence. In fact, most of the large players like Microsoft and Corel already do and have done so for several years. Microsoft does so in tying recent versions of Windows and Office to a specific PC - if you replace the PC, you cannot transfer the copy of software. Corel simply does not activate software that's more than a few years old, period.


Firewalls perhaps not, but I would never recommend that a computer do without AV software. Having worked with computers for a long time in the pre-Internet era, viruses were a constant problem when "floppy nets" (transfer of data between computers via floppy disks) were often the "network of choice".

On a non-networked machine, anti-virus is really unnecessary. While there is SOME risk that, say, a thumbdrive can contain malware, the risk factor is low. I actually have run into thumbdrives with malware embedded in their firmware, but, in the same vein, A/V did nothing to stop it.

Most (really, nearly all) malware actually works by downloading a payload from command and control server, so even if you actually install something malicious on a non-internet machine, nothing meaningful will happen because the payload simply isn't there.

Years ago that was a problem. I even posted in these forums a detailed set of instructions on how you could improve the fps (even though we did not know that term back then) by switching off various OS processes (do you really need the OS to be polling email, print, and a host of other services that you would be very unlikely to be using while playing TRS2004?). Today I don't bother. My current system is streets ahead in terms of speed, multi-threading, multitasking, multi-dancing, etc than the old "clunker" I was using back then.

Yes, but odds are, you have a pretty high-end PC. For comparison, back when T:ANE came out in 2015 and people with GTX970s and 980s were complaining about getting slide-show performance, I was rocking 30fps in scenery-dense areas but with GTX550Ti that was well below the minimum specifications. On top of it, I run high draw distances, 8k-12k meters.

Obviously a "throw away parting shot". Where is your evidence for that?

Again, the evidence is in the fact that the rest of the software publishing industry is doing it. Some comments made by N3V staff at various times (notably, in 2013 by Windwalkr) also add weight.
 
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I have no doubts that you hold your anti-DRM views very closely and I am very unlikely to convince you otherwise - in fact I am not trying to as I am not 100% in favour of DRM myself, but we do not live in an ideal world.

This DRM argument pops up regularly enough to indicate to me that there are, probably, enough people who would want a DRM free version to make it worthwhile for N3V to do again - given the right conditions.

However, each time this argument has been raised the counter argument, from N3V, is always the same. DRM, with all its faults, does protect (however poorly) the rights of content creators who contribute their work as payware to the DLC and as "built in" assets. As JCitron pointed out recently in another thread "N3V themselves does not create, or rarely creates, content for the program and haven't done so in earnest in well over a decade." According to a post from N3V (probably Tony) in one of these past DRM threads, many payware content creators will not contribute to Trainz unless N3V can give some protection to their content. DRM with all its disadvantages (listed in my previous post) is that protection.

I am sure that if someone can come up with a better idea that is acceptable to the DLC contributors, then N3V will listen.
 
Similarly, I will not create content for TRS19 and later BECAUSE it has DRM,. For me, it's because I've invested too much time in my content to have it effectively deleted with the flick of a switch. While I know that there are other CCs who share similar views, I have no idea how many of us there are versus those content creators who want restrictions. However, the number of CCs who use third-party hosting, or simply share content at all, is pretty substantial, and should be a gauge of general dissatisfaction with N3V policy. Simply put, not all content creators want restrictions.





However, I'm primarily talking about DRM on the game itself, not so much content/DLC. The content is pretty useless without a game to run it, and, in the past, N3V has made the distinction between the two.
 
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Thanks for all the input fellas. I definitely have plenty to think about.
But it would be really simple if they did do a DRM free version. (fingers crossed)
 
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