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Thread: Red and Yellow Signals for NO Reason???

  1. #16
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    Which signals are you using?

    Some signals will not display a green unless you have a locomotive attached to a consist, and some signals will not display a green unless the front of the locomotive is facing the signal. The latter thing is annoying when switching freight cars.
    John
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  2. #17
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    Something I just learned from a post earlier that the program sets all signals to red to start the game. I checked and that is true. So, when you start a game the first signal you see will be red but as you get into some "approach zone" it will turn green automatically and you could have cared less that it began the game in a red state.
    This is not entirely true. The signals will begin with an init message to update themselves when you begin. they then carry out the usual logic to set their state. that is, they look down the track in the direction they signal to see if a train is there. default game logic tells the signal to go idle (STOP) when the case of no train is found. If a train to signal toward is found, then the signal will look the other direction for obstructions or other signals. If an obstruction is found like an open switch or another train then it goes to STOP but not in the idle state. If another signal is encountered the search down the track continues for only a slight overlap and stops as that signal should be able to take over from there. There are also a few other catches for otherwise unreasonable set-ups, like if signals are too close together (inside that overlap). This is the basic logic path for any trainz signal. This process is carried out many many times as needed when the game thread calls for them to update, so there is no reason to think your signals are being set to one state and locked there - unless they have been configured to do so.

    There is one default signal configuration type that I can think of that operates slightly-different and that is the "
    always-controlled" signal that causes the train to stop at it before it can clear the path. I do not know a lot about these or where they should be used as they appear to follow a regional or special practice and there isn't any real information on the use of that tag.

    Now addressing an issue like yours is difficult without actually being able to see the set-up, signals used, and potential problems on your line, but it seems like instead of looking for that solution you have arrived with many assumptions that you think are the problem that either do not actually exist, like the signals being intentionally set to a certain state, or there being NO reason for the behavior, when obviously there has to be some reason.



    And just for clarity, While you could (and I have) produce signals that display CLEAR when in idle state, it does not change the basic function above, so once they detect a train they will carry out the same process as any other signal.
    Last edited by norfolksouthern37; January 10th, 2019 at 06:38 PM.

  3. #18
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    I too have issues with red signals for no apparent reason. Could somebody explain what this "all red" rule is, or what its actual title is, or "clear all signals to green" as I cannot find any reference to it on the DLS.

  4. #19
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    The "all red" rule is not a rule but just how railroads work... if there is no train in a block the signal is red. If you open a session that has no trains, the signals, I believe, will be all red (by USA standards anyway). Drop a locomotive on the track and the signal in front should go green or yellow (or possibly stay red) depending on what is in block ahead and switch (turnout) settings.

    This video helps explain the red "failsafe" concept. If something fails you don't want lights to be green or yellow. So a signal is red unless forced green a yellow by a proper situation. The first 3 minutes explain hardware but failsafe and concept begin after that in this video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJpR93kp44I
    Last edited by 1611mac; January 21st, 2019 at 11:12 AM.
    TRS19 98592: Win 10, ASUS B450M-A/CSM, GTX 1060-6 Windforce
    (also a Mac install)


  5. #20
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    This is another example of internet information getting out of control.

    There is no all red rule to find on the DLS or anywhere else. That was simply a misunderstanding of what is going on.

  6. #21

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    I do not know the signal systems in USA but the all red rule is old here (I do not know if modern high-speed signals use it).
    About Trainz, in the signal config there was a command line so that a signal would always appear in red or green, you also have to configure the route and by means of marks define the main line and those of 2nd or 3rd category so that when you deviate from the main line the signal has yellow light.
    I suppose the scripts also influence but I do not know much about that; What I write is my experience with the 2010EE.



    Distance signals

    1 Main line not occupied and no deviation in main line, de next signal (main) also gren.

    2 Deviation of mainline, de next signal (main) in yellow.

    3 Line occupied, main line or deviation, the next signal (main) in red.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by fant_autentico View Post
    I do not know the signal systems in USA but the all red rule is old here (I do not know if modern high-speed signals use it).
    About Trainz, in the signal config there was a command line so that a signal would always appear in red or green, you also have to configure the route and by means of marks define the main line and those of 2nd or 3rd category so that when you deviate from the main line the signal has yellow light.
    I suppose the scripts also influence but I do not know much about that; What I write is my experience with the 2010EE.

    {pics removed}

    Distance signals

    1 Main line not occupied and no deviation in main line, de next signal (main) also gren.

    2 Deviation of mainline, de next signal (main) in yellow.

    3 Line occupied, main line or deviation, the next signal (main) in red.

    N3V, or better yet Auran at the time, chose the easiest and best route for US signaling. The reason is we have many systems here which are based on variations of two different signaling practices. Some of these rail lines have red signals on unoccupied blocks while others utilize an approach-lit setup where no aspect is shown until a train is within the track-circuit. These latter systems were quite common when the signals were all electro-mechanical and used big lamps instead of LEDs, which don't draw as much power from the batteries if they are on a battery. The purpose for the approach-lit system, therefore, is to save the life of the lamps, and to save the batteries.

    Since the development and introduction of LEDs, this seems to have fallen out of favor and now unoccupied blocks are lit. Here's a new signal that was introduced a few years ago when a new station platform as built.

    https://goo.gl/maps/cUCYaTKa3b42

    The line goes from double track to single here past the station, for a dumb reason that no one can explain why that decision was made, then goes back to multiple tracks past the yard.

    When I traveled extensively through out the South and Midwest US a few years ago, the signals on all the new "Darth Vader" hooded signals were lit regardless of there was a train in the block or not. Traveling along through Texas on US 20 and other highways that paralleled the busy mainlines down there, seeing these signals lit one after another for miles (kilometers) on end was truly amazing.



    Jointed Rail www.jointedrail.com, as well as on the DLS, has some signals that have approach-lit capabilities, however, by default they are red and each and every signal needs to be configured within a session.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
    TRS2019: 98592

  8. #23

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    The railway signaling is a world in itself, so I do not dare to say much about it. In Spain, the light signals (not led) were always on, they used low intensity light bulbs (watts, no energy saving lightbulbs) and the important thing was the optics of the lens which directed that little power towards the front.


    About Trainz I mentioned some command lines in the signal config

    "home 1"
    "always-controlled 1"

    One of these commands has to do with the always red light, but now I do not know which.

    There are many signaling systems, one example is the fixed signals with night light. These signals are lit from dusk to dawn manually or automatically. It is complicated in Trainz to represent that and the solution was to create the signals as objects scenery with night mode and to include an invisible signal in the track.





  9. #24
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    Is it possible to have signals to close together? Overlap within the Zone of Control, could that cause odd behaviors? Ignorance of the individual signal's behaviors, as well as those of N3V programming, could that be some of the issues we see as allegedly odd? Do people who create routes always understand signals? Do customers in general understand the underlying signaling philosophy of a route they get from the DLS? Seems like the role of signals could be "a traditional visual decoration" or a serious participant in a complex railroad session.
    Dick near Pittsburgh, Pa. i5-2500K 4.3ghz, 8gb memory, GTX1050 4gb video card

  10. #25
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    I'm 3 months into TRS19 and one of the first things I did was build a "signal" test track for myself. Several ovals all connected with straights tracks on the ends and that connected with two encircling outer loops. Put signals at each switch and even centered in between the end of the loops. Started with one loco and various switch settings. Then two locos, then three, then some consists and set them going with AI. It was amazing how this simple little test route helped my understanding of signals. (And how to use Surveyor to lay track and place signals)
    TRS19 98592: Win 10, ASUS B450M-A/CSM, GTX 1060-6 Windforce
    (also a Mac install)


  11. #26
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    Did you notice any anomalies when signals were too close to each other?
    Dick near Pittsburgh, Pa. i5-2500K 4.3ghz, 8gb memory, GTX1050 4gb video card

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by boleyd View Post
    Did you notice any anomalies when signals were too close to each other?
    I don't recall any anomalies. I will check it out again shortly just to make sure. When you say "close," how close?
    TRS19 98592: Win 10, ASUS B450M-A/CSM, GTX 1060-6 Windforce
    (also a Mac install)


  13. #28
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    Here are two pics of a really simple setup. I ran many combinations/possibilities and lights behaved properly.

    Initial setup shows in first pic - second pic shows one possible movement



    TRS19 98592: Win 10, ASUS B450M-A/CSM, GTX 1060-6 Windforce
    (also a Mac install)


  14. #29
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    There are anomalies with the built-in N3V (ancient Auran) signals, which are actually models of signals from NSW, but us North American logic.

    These old signals will trigger an aspect when any train car regardless of whether it's a locomotive or not. Some of the newer ones will only change aspects if there's a locomotive occupying the block.

    ---

    Can there be a signal overlap issue?

    Yes!

    I have run into this on my own routes, and depending upon the signal creator, some of the signals will indicate that when moused over. The problem with overlapping signals seems to be constant reds with no aspect change, which causes stalled AI trains. The problem is they work fine in Surveyor, but don't work in Driver so you don't know about this until you go to drive your route and wonder why there's a big backup of AI drivers. Hovering over the signals in Driver, will state signal overlap, and for some reason now I can't remember if it states which signal it overlaps with (Probably not and it would be wishful thinking if it did).

    Back in TS12 and T:ANE before the introduction of interlocking towers, signals could be tested easily in Surveyor successfully most of the time. Hovering over a signal, for example, would give the aspect rather than some signal number, which isn't very helpful in all cases.
    John
    Trainz User Since: 12-2003
    Trainz User ID: 124863
    T:ANE Build: 94829
    TRS2019: 98592

  15. #30
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    https://forums.auran.com/trainz/show...62#post1728462

    all of the operation is outlined here.

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