Ground grade changes (Build 98510)

Driver_Col

Active member
Hi Guys - It rather looks as if there is an issue where the ground is creeping up and over the track in apparently random places. Sadly, the Smooth spline height tool no longer works how it used to. i.e. it used to be instant and effective, but now it seems to be rather less than effective as it seems to miss pieces of track. Any thoughts? Suggestions? Thx. Colin.
 
I just ran a few tests and I am not seeing this at all. The track smoothing tool is working fine here. Is it just the one type of track, single track, double track, kuids?
 
I just ran a few tests and I am not seeing this at all. The track smoothing tool is working fine here. Is it just the one type of track, single track, double track, kuids?
It is single track and is not limited to one particular kuid. I have also noticed station people are dropping in height in isolated areas! Perhaps the people were simply overlooked when I loaded up a station (i.e.could be just me!) ... but the track is a puzzle, especially since the smoothing tool is not very effective. Are you also on build 98510? Regards. Colin.
 
If this a bare baseboard, this will occur with non PBR track. If you apply non-PBR textures under the track, ballast for example, the track will settle in fine.
 
Well that's fine, but why have PBR textures and not be able to use them where it is most important, which would be around track.
 
I am using build 98510 and I just laid some non-PBR track on a bare baseboard. Then I used the terrain height tools to "scramble" the ground height and as well I adjusted some track splines up and down. I then used the track smoothing tool and the terrain moved up (or down) to the track perfectly, no ground creep or anything odd.
 
Okay guys. This is not a bare baseboard situation, but rather my own GWR - Tristyn route. I am using track "TANE 1trk Wood". If I get too close to it with texture "PBR Grass 9 - Seasonal" then the ground raises (or the track lowers?) very slightly. Ideas appreciated as it is frustrating to work with track and then the final touch (texturing) messes things up! Regards. Colin.

Additional info - Grassing up to track on bare board is fine. Ballasting up to track on bare board is fine. The problem is when those two textures meet. This did not happen with 97556, and did not happen with TANE. Downloading my Tristyn route to TRS19 98510 immediately shows the issue so there would appear to be some incompatibility with this latest build.
 
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Okay guys. This is not a bare baseboard situation, but rather my own GWR - Tristyn route. I am using track "TANE 1trk Wood". If I get too close to it with texture "PBR Grass 9 - Seasonal" then the ground raises (or the track lowers?) very slightly. Ideas appreciated as it is frustrating to work with track and then the final touch (texturing) messes things up! Regards. Colin.

Additional info - Grassing up to track on bare board is fine. Ballasting up to track on bare board is fine. The problem is when those two textures meet. This did not happen with 97556, and did not happen with TANE. Downloading my Tristyn route to TRS19 98510 immediately shows the issue so there would appear to be some incompatibility with this latest build.

It's the PBR texture. Trust me they affect the heights I was told when I reported this way back in the early beta days that it's how they work.

If look closely, you'll see a jelly over the ground with textures floating inside. It's least apparent on flat surfaces. The PBR textures work great on brand new routes, but if they replace an existing texture on an old route, it doesn't work well. You can fix it but it's a pain in the tush. Make sure the texture covers the whole are where the tracks are and not just under the tracks.

What I don't like is when a preexisting texture is replaced with a PBR "update". Instead of obsoleting textures, developers, N3V included, should come out with separate versions so that route builders have a choice. Having a nicely textured landscape end up with buried tracks, roads, and platforms is more than just annoying.
 
Yes as John said, this is less of a bug and more the effects of the new Turf FX. PBR for ground is Parallax Based Rendering. So it has its own height values, aka like real life. Rocks aren't flat, so nether is the PBR Gravel textures.

Do I like this? No, not at all. The devs could of done a much better job and doing a check value here. If track is over X area of a PBR texture, Ignore height value of the PBR. Example: Lay PBR gravel, lay TR19 track. Where the ballast stops on the 19 track, the PBR height kicks back in.

In its current implementation, you must go and change EACH spline point's value to get the ballast from the TRS19 track. 0.13+ height is a good starter, from there its personal preference. I like my ballast raised, like a real RR. So this for me is a PIA. Having to make your customer go in and change each spline points height is absurd. I'd love to see this changed, but I think I'd have better luck in Vegas on this one.

I love and hate PBR. In other titles with PBR its done well, in 19, its a little... 'meh'. The jelly effect as tron said as well is very annoying. Updating old routes is easy as 1, 2, 3. But then it takes a bit of care and love to clean up the underlying problems.

One way to avoid this, but lose a feature is take off Ultra Shader Quality, it disables PBR.
 
It's the PBR texture. Trust me they affect the heights I was told when I reported this way back in the early beta days that it's how they work.

If look closely, you'll see a jelly over the ground with textures floating inside. It's least apparent on flat surfaces. The PBR textures work great on brand new routes, but if they replace an existing texture on an old route, it doesn't work well. You can fix it but it's a pain in the tush. Make sure the texture covers the whole are where the tracks are and not just under the tracks.

What I don't like is when a preexisting texture is replaced with a PBR "update". Instead of obsoleting textures, developers, N3V included, should come out with separate versions so that route builders have a choice. Having a nicely textured landscape end up with buried tracks, roads, and platforms is more than just annoying.
Many thanks for that info. A "workaround" would appear to be to use the bulk replacement tool, and replace the PBR textures with others. I have just done that with my Tristyn route and it seemed to resolve the issues (albeit changing the visual effect a little). Regards. Colin.
 
Yes as John said, this is less of a bug and more the effects of the new Turf FX. PBR for ground is Parallax Based Rendering. So it has its own height values, aka like real life. Rocks aren't flat, so nether is the PBR Gravel textures.

Do I like this? No, not at all. The devs could of done a much better job and doing a check value here. If track is over X area of a PBR texture, Ignore height value of the PBR. Example: Lay PBR gravel, lay TR19 track. Where the ballast stops on the 19 track, the PBR height kicks back in.

In its current implementation, you must go and change EACH spline point's value to get the ballast from the TRS19 track. 0.13+ height is a good starter, from there its personal preference. I like my ballast raised, like a real RR. So this for me is a PIA. Having to make your customer go in and change each spline points height is absurd. I'd love to see this changed, but I think I'd have better luck in Vegas on this one.

I love and hate PBR. In other titles with PBR its done well, in 19, its a little... 'meh'. The jelly effect as tron said as well is very annoying. Updating old routes is easy as 1, 2, 3. But then it takes a bit of care and love to clean up the underlying problems.

One way to avoid this, but lose a feature is take off Ultra Shader Quality, it disables PBR.
Great idea ... just set the Shader to Low (no option for OFF). Many thanks. Colin.
 
Driver_Col --

The rules have changed. They are now something like:


  1. Thou shalt only use PBR textures with the new TRS19 track (and visa versa).
  2. Thou shalt not rotate PBR textures.
  3. Thou shalt not mix PBR and non-PBR textures.
  4. Thou shalt apply PBR textures firmly (though in some circumstances a light brush over is permissible).

If you do a bulk replacement of non-PBR textures with PBR textures you will most likely be contravening Rule 2. So my advice when upgrading to PBR textures -- do a bulk substitution of all textures with a texture from the Download Station, save, in Manage Content remove that texture, save after deleting missing content. That takes you back to a bare baseboard. Apply PBR textures using the above rules.
 
Driver_Col --

The rules have changed. They are now something like:


  1. Thou shalt only use PBR textures with the new TRS19 track (and visa versa).
  2. Thou shalt not rotate PBR textures.
  3. Thou shalt not mix PBR and non-PBR textures.
  4. Thou shalt apply PBR textures firmly (though in some circumstances a light brush over is permissible).

If you do a bulk replacement of non-PBR textures with PBR textures you will most likely be contravening Rule 2. So my advice when upgrading to PBR textures -- do a bulk substitution of all textures with a texture from the Download Station, save, in Manage Content remove that texture, save after deleting missing content. That takes you back to a bare baseboard. Apply PBR textures using the above rules.
Must remember ... don't get too frustrated with the time wasted ... don't get too frustrated with the time wasted ... don't get too frustrated with the time wasted ... don't get too frustrated with the time wasted ... don't get too frustrated with the time wasted. :)
 
Driver_Col --

The rules have changed. They are now something like:


  1. Thou shalt only use PBR textures with the new TRS19 track (and visa versa).
  2. Thou shalt not rotate PBR textures.
  3. Thou shalt not mix PBR and non-PBR textures.
  4. Thou shalt apply PBR textures firmly (though in some circumstances a light brush over is permissible).

If you do a bulk replacement of non-PBR textures with PBR textures you will most likely be contravening Rule 2. So my advice when upgrading to PBR textures -- do a bulk substitution of all textures with a texture from the Download Station, save, in Manage Content remove that texture, save after deleting missing content. That takes you back to a bare baseboard. Apply PBR textures using the above rules.

I don't know about that, these are from my WIP route where I mixed and matched in build 98510.

The track shown is non-procedural with PBR and legacy ground textures in, around and on top of each other. Also in the mix is TurfFX & Clutter layers.
These particular pictures are from JR's Tidewater route section.


John
Mixed-Ground-Texture-3.jpg

Mixed-Ground-Textures-2.jpg
Mixed-Ground-Textures-1.jpg
 
Well if they want us to use them then they need to adjust something to keep it from doing that. I am having to go to every spline and raise it enough to get the track out of the ground, and yes it is a pain in the you know what.
 
I don't know about that, these are from my WIP route where I mixed and matched in build 98510.

The track shown is non-procedural with PBR and legacy ground textures in, around and on top of each other. Also in the mix is TurfFX & Clutter layers.
These particular pictures are from JR's Tidewater route section.


John
Mixed-Ground-Texture-3.jpg

Mixed-Ground-Textures-2.jpg
Mixed-Ground-Textures-1.jpg
Perhaps it's the procedural track which is the key to the irregularity?
 
Well if they want us to use them then they need to adjust something to keep it from doing that. I am having to go to every spline and raise it enough to get the track out of the ground, and yes it is a pain in the you know what.
I just reset my Shader setting to LOW. It solved the problem. Colin.
 
I just reset my Shader setting to LOW. It solved the problem. Colin.

As easy and good that is, it still is a cop-out excuse. You lose a big big big selling point feature of 19 version by going Low.

Much as I sometimes struggle with PBR, I can't go back. I won't. I'd love to see it fixed, properly. As I am not taking that off Ultra at all. Even with my 970 starting to struggle a bit with my low VRAM.
 
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