trackside speed signs

martinvk

since 10 Aug 2002
Since every driver is expected to "know" their route, why do they have to display speed signs along the tracks? A gentle reminder? So passengers can see how fast they could be traveling? Signals I get since they are dynamic, showing situations that can change from time to time.
 
A construction area may have a temporary speed restriction, and a driver may not remember that a slow speed curve is ahead ... Like what happened in the recent Cascade passenger train wreck in Wash State
 
Well since temporary speed reductions are not normal, they would have to be visible trackside. It's the signs that don't change I'm talking about. If the normal speed signs were not there, the abnormal ones would stand out even more.
 
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Especially at night, and rain, fog, snow, a permanent visible speed sign is needed, as no one can possibly remember what each and every curve is restricted to ... Even on roads, motorists need speed warning signs

To a driver, the monotony of a long route, every curve begins to look exactly the same, as they get hypnotized by the constant rails passing under the cab, and sometimes they can not have total recall exactly what location, or milepost they are presently at.

In the Frankford junction recent passenger wreck, the curve was 55 mph, unknown whether there were metal speed signs or not, but the curve was not protected by ABS electronics, as Amtrak said: "Why in the world would any driver be doing 110 coming north out of Philadelphia".

In a rush, pushing the throttle to the limit while trying to regain lost time, when the train was behind time schedule, an engineer may be doing well over the speed limit, without even knowing it
 
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Especially at night, and rain, fog, snow, a permanent visible speed sign is needed, as no one can possibly remember what each and every curve is restricted to ... Even on roads, motorists need speed warning signs
Last time I looked, ordinary motorists were not required to "know" the road(s) they drive on. All they need to know are the general traffic rules and the local signs will fill them in on local specifics like speed limits. Unlike London cabbies who must pass "The Knowledge" which includes knowing the traffic signals passed on a route.
 
How many times have you driven the same road, and did not know what the speed limit was (until you passed by a posted speed restriction sign, and took note of it) Just the same for engine crews.

How many times have you driven the same road, and got sidetracked, or distracted by something, and suddenly missed your exit, and passed right on by it ... and had to make a U turn, and backtrack your road to make the proper turn onto the correct road ... Engine crews can not do this

How many times have you gotten pulled over by the fuzz, for speeding 38 mph in a 15 mph school zone, and the Super Trooper asks you: "Does Meow know Meow fast Meow was doing, Meow" ?

They need metal speed signs, station signs, and milepost signs to assure proper navigation

The Titanic was running blindly, at full speed ahead, steaming headlong into the night, when all of a sudden: "Iceberg Dead Ahead" WHAM :confused:

What is the point of this discussion, unless it is your pet peeve against speed sign posts, and you wish to have all the unsightly, redundant, RR speed signs removed ?

Besides, passengers can not actually read the speed signs, signals and station signs, from their sideways FOV, as they speed and wizz by them
 
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I'm not sure how many U.S. roads are like this, but the one I have experience with has no trackside speed signs and hasn't for a long time. As Martinvk mentioned in the first post, the crews have to know their route to get certified on it and all permanent speeds come from printed timetables. Maximum speeds get superseded by Permanent Slow Orders between control points, around curves, over bridges, etc. Temporary speeds are transmitted to the crews by Rail Traffic Control via General Bulletin Orders.
 
... why do they have to display speed signs along the tracks? A gentle reminder?
I would feel more safe knowing that physical speed signs were posted, as well as knowing that physical temporary speed slow order signs were posted ... Rather than relying on the memory of a driver recalling what he read in the timetable book, somewhere: "Hmmm Let's see now ... while I look it up in my trusty ol' book ... (as he thumbs through book, taking his eyes off the road) I remember seeing it somewhere ... Ohhh here it is ... now between MP 331 and 422 the speed is Hmmm ... 35 ... and we are doing 65 right now, and UhhOhh it's 1/8th a mile away .... Oh holy crap ! Slow Down" ! ... As yet another Washington State Cascade train wreck suddenly gets shoved off a track curve, that has no physical metal posted speed signs ... if only there had been posted speed signs it would never have killed people and crews

No ... It's not a gentle reminder ... It is a BOLD notice ... slow down to this speed, or else !
A drivers memory could fail him, in a mental lapse ... A BOLD metal sign however, is absolute !

https://www.google.com/search?q=bns...h=530#imgrc=1lEFAFivwnlIhM:&spf=1541416453844

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa%20Rec%20Oak%20Iowa%20train%20crash.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6vqr5Dlm9I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--uS_Susx3k
 
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Crews are "qualified" on the routes by practice driving with an experienced engineer before they are released to drive on their own. Specific traffic has a maximum allowable speed in most areas. Passenger traffic is posted at 65 to 79 mph in my area while freight moves at 40-50 on the well maintained track with Pan Am Railways being the exception with its crappy 20 mph mainline speeds. Where there are regular speed changes such as for junctions, for example, I have seen speed posts, but most speeds are governed by the published timetable that the engineer is qualified for.

The fatal Frankford Jct. wreck was caused by speeding, however, it was not the engineer speed in an attempt to make up time. Instead the driver was distracted due to other radio chatter that he was concentrating on rather than his own driving along with being rushed through his break between the two turns he had run.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Philadelphia_train_derailment

The recent Cascade passenger derailment was caused by speeding, and there was a posted slow speed for that curve. In that case, it was determined that the engineer wasn't paying attention to his surroundings and got confused. In this case it didn't matter if there was a speed limit posted because the enginner whiffed.

The NTSB interviewed the train's engineer, who suffered serious injuries, in January. He told investigators that he did not see the advance speed sign or milepost 18, mistakenly thinking he was at milepost 17. The engineer applied the train's brakes after seeing the final speed signpost, immediately north of the curve.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Washington_train_derailment

In the December 2013 Metro North accident, the engineer whiffed completely due to in attention while driving due to medical reasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_2013_Spuyten_Duyvil_derailment

In all these cases it's been stated that the new PTC controls would have prevent these kinds of accidents. I highly recommend reading the NTSB reports on these incidents.
 
Since every driver is expected to "know" their route, why do they have to display speed signs along the tracks? A gentle reminder? So passengers can see how fast they could be traveling?
No doubt that PTC would have stopped a speeding train ... But PTC is not the discussion here, as I am presuming the OP opinion is that trackside speedboard signs are not of any use, are silly reminders, and should be removed, aside from letting passengers know how fast they are going.

In each of these incidents the "trained", qualified engineer, that was certified to know every inch of his route ... they all "muffed up like champions", misjudged, and did not know exactly what location they were at, at the given time of the crash scene times. Had they been "PAYING ATTENTION" to posted metal trackside speedboard signs, no one would have been injured or killed.

And in the Frankford Junction crash, the train was seriously behind schedule, and was purposely speeding to make up lost time, in an area that Amtrak quoted: "It was never in the world thought" that "any train" would be speeding at 110 mph northbound out of Phila, as that curve is well known by all engineers to be a permanent slow speed of 55 restriction

So just "KNOWING" and being qualified on your route does not absolutely insure that an engineer will not "screw up royally, with flying colors" due to negligent human error

A posted trackside sign speedboard, is absolutely the best "visual" warning device ... ignore the speed sign and you are absolutely at fault
 
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I never said they were silly, I was just wondering how useful they really are.

A train driver is expected to know the track and all the details, including the allowable speeds for each section. If through some combination of carelessness, inattention or stupidity they go too fast and cause an accident, no speed sign will prevent that. If they know their route and drive properly, they don't need any speed signs. If prevention was the objective, something that can over-rule the driver is needed, a speed sign will not do that. Thus my question - what are they really for? Is it just so the rule makers can point to them and say, "see, we did something."

They can also not be compared to road speed signs since there is not any expectation that a car driver knows the details of the road he/she is driving on, thus the need to have posted speed signs.
 
I was just wondering how useful they really are. Thus my question - what are they really for?
They are there for: To prevent the combination of carelessness, inattention, or stupidity, or mental lapse of judgment

If your city expected you to know the speed limits all over town, by memory only, by reading a previously published bulletin, isn't there some chance that you might forget if you were distracted ?

However if you are going down a street, and suddenly see a big bold posted metal sign, with big bold letters and numerals, right in front of you: "SPEED LIMIT 15 MPH" ... That should refresh your memory.

Without that sign being visibly present, you might errantly speed right on through a 15 mph school zone, running down 15 children crossing the road, or T-Bone a school bus at 65 mph

In Japan, the conductor and engineer, both call out all the signs and signals, out load to each other, and signal each other by a hand salute, with white gloves on, that they heard and understood each other, and comprehended each and every spoken word, and that they both saw each and every sign and signal correctly.

They do not just rely on memory ... They read and acknowledge to each other, each and every sign and signal, by reading it, and speaking it out loud, acknowledging each other, there is almost zero chance of mistake.

Without signs, there is a 50-50 chance, or even greater, that an engineer might blow right on through a restricted speed zone ... Hoping and praying that someone has total 100% recall, of a written bulletin. is like hoping and praying that the person who packed your parachute was not a complete idiot, and errantly filled your parachute backpack with Boy Scouts of America pots and pans, knives, forks and spoons ... and when you pull the ripcord camping stuff flies out, and it goes: "chinkity klink clank ding ding ..."
 
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Since road drivers are not expected to "know" every detail like local speed limits, having speed signs is appropriate in their case. But we are not talking about roads here - instead it's railroads. If someone was careless, inattentive, stupid or suffered mental lapse, a simple sign will not do anything to correct that. You'd want a second person who also knew the track and was careful, attentive, smart with all their whits about them to also be in the cab. Or some automatic device that also never gets tired to over-ride the throttle.
 
It seems this thread has become a bit contentious so I'll give you a little more to chew on and then leave you to it.

It's hard enough to keep mileboards in place. They get knocked down, vandalized, and stolen. Is it kids? Is it railfans? Who knows? But, the railroad doesn't want to risk the same thing happening to a speed sign that the crew might start to rely on after awhile.

Speaking of PTC; it's known now that crews will focus on the cab display unit so they don't get enforced, so that will make speed signs even less reliable.
 
I think you got your answers:

What are signs for ? : To double insure and "BOLDLY" remind the engineer what to do, should they not remember

How useful are signs ? : Very useful, they reinsure that the engineer does what they display, should they not remember

Why do they put signs there ? : Because they want to double insure that the engineer doesn't forget

I think you are grasping at straws, purposely baiting an argument, on the presumption that engineers are totally infallible, have 100% total recall of what they read on a train order cork bulletin board notice at the "on call" sign up sheet at the yard office, And that engineers are so perfect that they don't need signs, because of their superior mental total recall abilities

I could give you at least 300 horrific train collision examples down through history, where a simple sign would have reminded an engineer of an approaching danger, preventing deaths and injuries

It's hard enough to keep mileboards in place. They get knocked down, vandalized, and stolen. Is it kids? Is it railfans? Who knows? But, the railroad doesn't want to risk the same thing happening to a speed sign that the crew might start to rely on after awhile.

That analogy is a bit full of holes, akin to "W" signs (whistleboard signs), and signals, should be taken out of service, as vandals might steal them, or throw rocks at the lamps, making them useless ... and we don't want our engineers reading all that nonsense carp, as they just might start relying on them

PTC is not the discussion here ... and "what if" vandals steal all the highway stop signs, and manhole covers, and sell them for scrap ... You should have known and remembered that they were there yesterday
 
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