I caved, and I have a few remarks...

MTH_ELECTRIC_TRAINS said:

Well, I am not saying that the TS12 content is bad because most of it isn't. Although there are subpar assets even from that version. The other 8,000 ish are the ones that could be OK or just complete garbage now. Again, I am not saying N3V should stop using them entirely. I am saying that they should either do that OR that they should go and update them. I can only see it helping their game's overall popularity.

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N3V doesn't create the routes that are supplied with the various versions. These routes were built, for inclusion in the various versions by various community members. The assets chosen are those that the route builder thought were the best fit for those locations. It has been this way for as long as I can remember. The famous Highland Valley was created by Ceebee, and the N&W route included in TS12 was created by Gawpo50. The famous CNR Toronto route is by the Toronto Trainz group for example, and there are many others both past and present.

If no one cared about past compatibility, and no one cared that things stopped working when assets were deemed too old and pulled from circulation, or cared there won't be any real new content for another decade to build routes, sure we could have all brand new content made for the now current version. The pickings would be pretty thin if you think about it as content creators come up to speed with the new methods and techniques.

The good news is that we now have much better tools at replacing content (namely "Bulk Replace"), with more work to follow in that area. Over time we will no doubt see less and less "old stuff" and more and more "new stuff".

Future steps include:
- the ability to identify and replace missing assets (currently they show as the orange box only)
- community rated content (so that higher quality items naturally get used more)
- creating a matrix for suggested replacement assets (so that a user can enter a KUID and suggested alternatives are listed)

In TRS19, payware routes can already be updated by anyone and uploaded to the DLS - so you can start the process of weeding out the older content right now if you like.

We're also preparing for people to offer their DLS routes up for "updating and uploading to the DLS". How we do this is still being discussed, but once a route is listed as "available to update" then the community can begin the update process and upload to the DLS when they're done.

'Community rated content', decided to open that Pandora's box eh?

amigacooke said:

'Community rated content', decided to open that Pandora's box eh?

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Yes, it will be interesting to see how that works out. or :'(

Absolutely. We've listened the to the arguements for and against. We have concluded that the pros far outweigh the cons.

Currently:
(i) users have no way to determine if an item is good or not before downloading it
(ii) they are frustrated by downloading items that are of poor quality
(iii) download counts are of no value since a poor quality item used in a very popular route will still be downloaded frequently (and rise up on a download # scale).
(iv) the ability for "gaming" the quality score is minimal (since the majority of people rating items will do so honestly and without favouritism)
(v) any gaming of the system will be traceable and rectifiable by N3V oversight of the system
(vi) items will need a minimum number of ratings before the rating is published (this number is TBD)
(vii) we will be testing the system prio to public release to esnure that our assumptions are verified

We will work with the community to ensure that we are providing a beneficial system that ensures better content is easier to find and has the support of the majority of testers before being implemented.

Conspiracy theorists can make their conjectures, but we are confident this is in the best interests of the community as a whole.

One last note, based upon the recent votes in the screenshot competition, we saw that the cream quickly rises to the top. The poorer items quickly sink to the bottom, and the majority sit somewhere in the middle.

Tony_Hilliam said:

Conspiracy theorists can make their conjectures, but we are confident this is in the best interests of the community as a whole.

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I do hope that those who raise legitimate objection will not automatically be classed as a 'conspiracy theorist'.

Interested to see how this will work, if nothing else I suspect it will generate a few outraged posts on the forum.

amigacooke said:

if nothing else I suspect it will generate a few outraged posts on the forum.

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Oh you can bet on that. I think I can hear a few angry keystrokes already

Tony's points (i) to (iii) neatly summed up the most common complaints about the DLS that have been aired in these forums. His points (iv) to (vi) have answered some of the main criticisms of a points rating system that have also been aired in these forums, and those criticisms were also concerns of mine.

On balance, I think he is offering a reasonable compromise that might be workable and is worthy of a trial at least. Of course we will get some creators who will complain that, in their opinion, the ratings given to their uploaded assets are not high enough.

To be fair before the rating system is implemented, it might be a good idea to separate the mobile version saves from the rest of the downloads. I don't think some kid who uploads yet another Highland Valley mobile rework would appreciate a one-star rating.

Tony_Hilliam said:

- the ability to identify and replace missing assets (currently they show as the orange box only)

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Dare I ask if there is an ETA on this?

Will this work with Bulk Asset Replace?

JCitron said:

To be fair before the rating system is implemented, it might be a good idea to separate the mobile version saves from the rest of the downloads.

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Agreed, but I would expect that those assets would receive few, if any votes (apart from a vote from the creator), and would not meet point (vi)

(vi) items will need a minimum number of ratings before the rating is published (this number is TBD)

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I just did a count of the latest routes uploaded to the DLS and 38 out of 100 were obviously mobile routes (bare baseboards, TS12 and sideways screenshots) or very early WIP or "test" uploads.

Tony_Hilliam said:

Absolutely. We've listened the to the arguements for and against. We have concluded that the pros far outweigh the cons.

Currently:
(i) users have no way to determine if an item is good or not before downloading it
(ii) they are frustrated by downloading items that are of poor quality
(iii) download counts are of no value since a poor quality item used in a very popular route will still be downloaded frequently (and rise up on a download # scale).
(iv) the ability for "gaming" the quality score is minimal (since the majority of people rating items will do so honestly and without favouritism)
(v) any gaming of the system will be traceable and rectifiable by N3V oversight of the system
(vi) items will need a minimum number of ratings before the rating is published (this number is TBD)
(vii) we will be testing the system prio to public release to esnure that our assumptions are verified

We will work with the community to ensure that we are providing a beneficial system that ensures better content is easier to find and has the support of the majority of testers before being implemented.

Conspiracy theorists can make their conjectures, but we are confident this is in the best interests of the community as a whole.

One last note, based upon the recent votes in the screenshot competition, we saw that the cream quickly rises to the top. The poorer items quickly sink to the bottom, and the majority sit somewhere in the middle.

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Tony, I think we must be really careful about how we approach this long term review of how we retain and use the management of assets - the DLS.

I would like to offer to help in this process if you are looking for volunteers mainly because I have used my trainz time since the year dot in building up layouts and models very largely dependent on building up models based largely on just 2 or 3 factors.
Trawling keywords for items of interest is absolutely critical but quickly runs out of steam because of the way the search process works. The search process should link 2 or 3 elements of what the designer wanted to include. Our search engine simply adds text to text so the more words you put in the longer your lisy becomes.

A relatively short list, to begin with, would be a big win.

Just recently noticed that a knowledge of foreign languages opens up a whole new raft of interesting objects that are invisible to the purely Englisg user. For example if you type in "MUR", CHATEAU,MAISON etc you have a new range of items - often very quirky and interesting.

This brings you on to the importance of Authors. I am sure we all have our own favourites and I keep a library of my own favourites.

You then move on to your own VERY personal interests which is where it becomes really interesting.

I am building up historical scenes so my keywords include VICTORIAN, GEORGIAN, MEDIEVAL, BRUNEL and VICTORY.

I couldn't believe it when I typed in the word VICTORY one day and up popped probably one of the best models I have ever seen of HMS VICTORRY by PIETSILENT. It is simply superb and I feel sick that I might be missing out on similar beauties.

In short, this process is going to be extremely complex and if you invite end users to assist, please invite me in.
I have lots of ideas and a strong desire to help improve a system that is creaking at the knees.

Firstly, sorry for hijacking this thread.
Secondly, thanks for your feedback. We'll be putting together a more formal approach to gather everyone's feecback prior to implementation.

Why have they made it so difficult to get a route, up and running in the shortest possible time. Looks to me is that they've made so many hoops to jump through that frustration soon takes over. TR12 for instance, you clicked on a tab the routes scrolled down, you clicked on the desired one and presto, up and running in minutes. Now all we have is a screen full of square frames, whereby clicking on one points to another screen with the same amount of frames. By far the tab selection was much better.

Tony_Hilliam said:

. [snip] but once a route is listed as "available to update" then the community can begin the update process and upload to the DLS when they're done.

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This needs to be closely controlled by either the original author or N3V to ensure that we don't have a confusing mess uploaded to the DLS

Ken

arwin48 said:

Why have they made it so difficult to get a route, up and running in the shortest possible time. Looks to me is that they've made so many hoops to jump through that frustration soon takes over. TR12 for instance, you clicked on a tab the routes scrolled down, you clicked on the desired one and presto, up and running in minutes. Now all we have is a screen full of square frames, whereby clicking on one points to another screen with the same amount of frames. By far the tab selection was much better.

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While the new screen isn't perfect, there are at least filters available so you can narrow down stuff to your content only as well as search for routes and other things by name, region, and other qualifiers.

Once you get used to the new interface, you'll find jumping back and forth between routes and sessions very fast compared to the old TS2010-T:ANE route menu.

JCitron said:

While the new screen isn't perfect, there are at least filters available so you can narrow down stuff to your content only as well as search for routes and other things by name, region, and other qualifiers.

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That would be good if it worked, but it doesn't.
I select a region of India and I get 'Japan - Model Trainz'! I select that and I get the 'Fall Harvest - Nebraska'! I select that and it just goes around in circles. None of it has anything to do with India.

SailorDan said:

That would be good if it worked, but it doesn't.
I select a region of India and I get 'Japan - Model Trainz'! I select that and I get the 'Fall Harvest - Nebraska'! I select that and it just goes around in circles. None of it has anything to do with India.

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?? It works fine for me.

I selected India and I have nothing. A couple of advertisements in the upper part about recommended routes, but that's it. Selecting Japan gives me Chiyoda Branch Line and the Japan - Model Trainz.

Maybe you need to do a quick database repair or an EDR?

JCitron said:

Maybe you need to do a quick database repair or an EDR?

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Nope. Same on every system I have tried, including a fresh install. The only thing that changes is the actual choices, but none of them ever refers to India. Why am I even getting a 'Fall Harvest - Nebraska' choice when I am sure it isn't even installed.

SailorDan said:

Nope. Same on every system I have tried, including a fresh install. The only thing that changes is the actual choices, but none of them ever refers to India. Why am I even getting a 'Fall Harvest - Nebraska' choice when I am sure it isn't even installed.

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Is this in the top part of the window or across the bottom?

Your installed routes are on the bottom while advertised routes and sessions appear in the upper part. Your choice of installed routes should disappear if you choose India and don't have anything from that country/region.

JCitron said:

Your installed routes are on the bottom while advertised routes and sessions appear in the upper part.

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I don't think those routes are advertisements. If they were it would say so, and when you click them it would take you to the store. Instead, they are selected (incorrectly) on the basis of your filter, they are described as 'Other content...', and clicking them takes you to some random selection of sessions.