Grass clumps now look weird.

J

JCitron

Trainzing since 12-2003
I don't use these often but run across them in various routes I've downloaded and installed.

With the lighting and underlying graphic changes, they now look like poop to put it bluntly.

2018-10-22 233644.jpg

Has anyone else bug-reported this, or is there a solution for it?

This problem effects pretty much all the grass including such as the GRAZZY-series and JVC grass clumps.

EDIT:

I showed this to my brother who is a graphic designer and 3d-artist. He says this is related to the specular settings for the grass. Hopefully this hints in the right direction. If this hasn't been bug reported already, I will go ahead and do that.
 
Last edited:
We'll take a look - does it happen under all settings? Shadows off etc?
Was it this way in previous TRS19 versions?
While we want to understand what's changed to improve backwards compatibility, I'm also interested whether the ground clutter grasses would suit your purpose better (or TurfFX)
 
Brought this up on June 5 in Beta.

trs19_12.jpg


Yes it is important, all the legacy stuff looks like crap.

Harold
 
Tony_Hilliam said:
We'll take a look - does it happen under all settings? Shadows off etc?
Was it this way in previous TRS19 versions?
While we want to understand what's changed to improve backwards compatibility, I'm also interested whether the ground clutter grasses would suit your purpose better (or TurfFX)
Click to expand...

Hi Tony,

Thank you for the suggestions and thank you for putting these on the list. :)

I checked various shadow settings, normal versus higher details, lighting settings etc., and the results are the same. Billboard trees are affected as well. JVC, the Forest Series, by Toxa-Botoxa (I think that's how his name is spelled, and others). I will say with shadows off things look very TS12 like!

I realize that the TurfFX would probably work better in this case, but at the moment I just want this to work and I'll update to that eventually. The thing is this affects built-in routes as well as DLC, which we can change now, but that defeats the purpose of installing DLC just to run the routes.
 
I'm not seeing this issue, unless I am missing something.



I only use a small set of grasses in my picklist - including:-
<kuid:136383:3312> grass03s group big g
<kuid:136383:3311> grass03s group small g
<kuid:136383:3313> grass03s group wide g (shown above)
<kuid:136383:3302> grass04s group big d
<kuid:136383:3301> grass04s group small d
<kuid2:328583:1304:2> JVC-grass105
<kuid2:328583:1096:2> Grass13

None are showing this problem.
 
pware said:
I'm not seeing this issue, unless I am missing something.

{pic removed}

I only use a small set of grasses in my picklist - including:-
<kuid:136383:3312> grass03s group big g
<kuid:136383:3311> grass03s group small g
<kuid:136383:3313> grass03s group wide g (shown above)
<kuid:136383:3302> grass04s group big d
<kuid:136383:3301> grass04s group small d
<kuid2:328583:1304:2> JVC-grass105
<kuid2:328583:1096:2> Grass13

None are showing this problem.
Click to expand...

These happened to work properly, probably no specular. Check out GRAZZY Grass series, and others including the JVC tall grass.
 
As normally happens in cases like this, until we get the full set of information, we're often barking up the wrong tree (does that count as a pun?).

Checking a variety of JVC grasses, some look fine, others less so, but none as bad as Harolds shot. Is that a recent shot Harold or from June 6? Does adjusting the ambient light improve the picture?

It appears that the in TRS19 the worst case grasses are darker on the ambient light side than in TANE. Altering the light settings resolves that issue at the expense of other things becoming too bright.

Identifying the worst case examples and providing KUIDs would help us narrow down this problem. Thanks
 
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Simply put, NONE of the grass splines from earlier versions of Trainz look OK these days, particularly if people insist on messing up their shadows and ambient light settings as illustrated above.
Suggest avoid them like the plague - they are often the first indication that the Trainz screenshot you're seeing has been created using legacy assets and deeply-flawed 3D building methods.
The TurfFx grasses are the most natural and convincing looking grasses we've seen in Trainz so far to date.
Whilst not perfect (yet) they are a giant leap forward towards creating credible landscapes involving simulated vegetation.
 
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I agree that the goal is towards TurfFx and new clutter assets which look far superior.

That said, backwards compatibility is also a goal.

We then get into the grey area of how much effort to spend on making assets that have always suffered from certain problems (like top down view for the "fake grass") look better.
 
Quite a few grasses,shrubs and trees look like crap in build 96000. The Problem with Turfx is the lack of very fine control of placement. For tight areas where you just need a few clumps of grass it just spews it all over the place even with the smallest settings.
 
Tony_Hilliam said:
As normally happens in cases like this, until we get the full set of information, we're often barking up the wrong tree (does that count as a pun?).

Checking a variety of JVC grasses, some look fine, others less so, but none as bad as Harolds shot. Is that a recent shot Harold or from June 6? Does adjusting the ambient light improve the picture?

It appears that the in TRS19 the worst case grasses are darker on the ambient light side than in TANE. Altering the light settings resolves that issue at the expense of other things becoming too bright.

Identifying the worst case examples and providing KUIDs would help us narrow down this problem. Thanks
Click to expand...

I'll pick some weeds and supply samples in an official bug report.
 
Been playing with the various TurfFX parameters and while it is possible to get a tight group with minimal spill, it is not obvious. Luckily the same effect can be assigned to two different instances so only the edges need the tighter parameters since, if I understand it correctly, there is a performance penalty. The Clutter and TurfFX tutorials are a good first step but this will need a lot more study.
 
The CL foliage series is pretty much affected and I have had to use Bulk Replace many times.
As noted JVC is also in bad shape. I doubt you will be able to fix them without also modifying the asset. Looks like only one plane at a time gets the "grey smear". I would like to use the "new stuff" but spending some amount of time learning 3D graphics jargon does not advance my interest.
 
pware said:
I'm not seeing this issue, unless I am missing something.



I only use a small set of grasses in my picklist - including:-
<kuid:136383:3312> grass03s group big g
<kuid:136383:3311> grass03s group small g
<kuid:136383:3313> grass03s group wide g (shown above)
<kuid:136383:3302> grass04s group big d
<kuid:136383:3301> grass04s group small d
<kuid2:328583:1304:2> JVC-grass105
<kuid2:328583:1096:2> Grass13

None are showing this problem.
Click to expand...

Those are about the best of the legacy grasses IMHO. Even in older versions of Trainz those are about the only ones I'm using now. I'm presently rebuilding some of my older routes for possible use in TANE and who knows one day maybe even TS2019 once I have my computer rebuild completed so don't really want to have to do a lot of work all over again.
 
boleyd said:
The CL foliage series is pretty much affected and I have had to use Bulk Replace many times.
As noted JVC is also in bad shape. I doubt you will be able to fix them without also modifying the asset. Looks like only one plane at a time gets the "grey smear". I would like to use the "new stuff" but spending some amount of time learning 3D graphics jargon does not advance my interest.
Click to expand...
Only ones of mine that work OK in TRS19 are the bushes. Grass clumps? small ones work OKish Screen shot is mainly my bushes and some of Jan's grass.

 
I submitted a bug report with examples.

Adjustments with the environmental affects only make the issue more apparent and it occurs at all performance settings and shader settings.
 
JCitron said:
This problem effects pretty much all the grass including such as the GRAZZY-series and JVC grass clumps.
Click to expand...
The grazzy series used a normal map trick to essentially disable any kind of direct lighting, making the polygons always appear to be in shade, causing the asset to rely solely on ambient light color. Looks like in your posted version of TRS the trick has been undone.
 
Therock said:
The grazzy series used a normal map trick to essentially disable any kind of direct lighting, making the polygons always appear to be in shade, causing the asset to rely solely on ambient light color. Looks like in your posted version of TRS the trick has been undone.
Click to expand...

That's what it looks like because these look fine in T:ANE.

Since N3V has broken these, let them figure out the fix and pass on the great secret to you content creators. :)
 
Well this is definitely not good news for the route builders. All of Malc's and most JVC items still work fine in TANE and are a staple for putting in fine detail and the cluttered look of undergrowth and lineside grass. With thousands of assets affected many by authors no longer active or even on this mortal coil, the issue is one for N3V to fix in the core sim.

In the meantime, perhaps N3V want us to go for the MSTS '01 billiard table look in our routes..?

Without falling back into "whinging" N3V need to address this urgently, having taken a large amount of non-refundable (other than attempting a chargeback) amount of money from their customers. At this point I am sorely tempted to suspend any further building activity in TRS2019 until the issue is properly resolved as at the moment it is looking like the biggest waste of £55 I ever spent.
 
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