Except for a some places on earth and unmodified baseboards, flatness is rare. There is usually some slope to the ground, sometimes even a lot. So if PBR ground textures are going to be limited to the flat places, then it is not such a wonderful thing after all. IIRC, mixing PBR and ordinary ground is not recommended because the transition in very noticeable. At this point, bug or technology limit is moot. We get a new toy that we can almost never use. :'( Better not tout it in the adverts for TRS19.
New update to 97271 via TRS19 Beta stream
- Thread starter Tony_Hilliam
- Start date
I mean, the idea of textures with depth is great. It just sucks that we can't use them in most situations. I love most of the PBR textures, but i can't use them, so what's the point?
According to trs19.trainzportal.com, parallax mapping is it indeed touted as one of TRS19's defining features. Though It's pretty sad that one of the best new features becomes unusable the moment you open the Topography Editor tab.
According to trs19.trainzportal.com, parallax mapping is it indeed touted as one of TRS19's defining features. Though It's pretty sad that one of the best new features becomes unusable the moment you open the Topography Editor tab.
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As above, we recommend that route creators manage their texturing to avoid extreme problem cases.
The following is expected and we feel that the benefits easily outweigh the problems:
* Texture distortion at extreme glancing camera angles.
* Texture "crawling" (for lack of a better word, maybe somebody can come up with a better phrase?) in cases where terrain angles change sharply.
The following is not desirable, and should be avoided by the route creator:
* Extreme distortions which are easily visible from the "gameplay area" and/or which are sufficiently problematic to detract from the overall scene.
As with anything in a computer game, there are scenarios where the tech gives amazing results, scenarios where the tech gives acceptable results, and scenarios where the tech gives poor results. It is the route creator's decision on when to use parallax mapping to get those "amazing results", and when to avoid it to prevent those "poor results". The route creator can take a number of steps, including:
* Ignoring the problem in specific cases, because they feel that it is sufficiently minimal or sufficiently out-of-the-way as to be irrelevant to any normal use-case.
* Avoiding the problem by falling back to flat texturing.
* Covering the problem by use of other geometry (scenery, clutter, splines, etc.)
To be clear, the tech works fine at any slope angle you like. The problem scenario is rapid changes of surface normal. It probably helps if you think of the ground as being a smoothed surface, and the 10m/5m polygon grid as a not-quite-smooth approximation of that surface. The further that the polygon approximation differs from the smoothed "original", the more likely you are to encounter problems.
chris
Then practice what you preach and fix your OWN routes. Don't go ahead and tell me to "avoid problem cases" when you guys can't do that yourself.
Or, you could work on fixing this issue before release. But no, that requires effort, right?
Or, you could work on fixing this issue before release. But no, that requires effort, right?
A good start would be a function to specify the angle of a slope or cutting - the more severe the angle or closer to 90deg vertical, the worst the texture distortion.
If there's a limitation, then program it out - you've had in the region of 17 years to come up with a solution! Otherwise this constant, "creators' fault" starts to wear somewhat thin.
If there's a limitation, then program it out - you've had in the region of 17 years to come up with a solution! Otherwise this constant, "creators' fault" starts to wear somewhat thin.
Sorry, I thought it was obvious from my comments, but we're happy with the results in our own routes. Is it perfect in every possible way? No, of course not. But we feel that the advantages of parallax easily outweigh the disadvantages.
As above, it's a limitation of that technology, and there is no "fix". There are only mitigations, and many of those mitigations require manual decisions on the part of the creator.
chris
Hi,
Updated without problems.
My observations:
- shiny rolling stock
- wet rocks and some terrain splines - very shiny indeed
- jelly surfaces with parallax on slopes
- delete or move to another layer not working in bulk replace
- not able to hide shades under cars as texture files are not editable
Otherwise good progress - less CTDs.
Kind Regards
Darko
Updated without problems.
My observations:
- shiny rolling stock
- wet rocks and some terrain splines - very shiny indeed
- jelly surfaces with parallax on slopes
- delete or move to another layer not working in bulk replace
- not able to hide shades under cars as texture files are not editable
Otherwise good progress - less CTDs.
Kind Regards
Darko
You honestly think what i showed off in my video looks GOOD? You guys really are delusional. So much for putting actual effort into your products, i guess.
You can't possibly be serious. All your years of programming and you can't fix something like this? What kind of "head programmer" are you? One of your most ambitious ideas blatantly ruined because you refuse to try and work on the game's issues.
Tony_Hilliam
Trainz Plus - enjoy Trainz from just 20 cents a da
I am really sorry to have to call you out on this one but attacking an employee is very close to a CoC violation.
It appears that your distrust of N3V is clouding your judgement and ability to understand the facts we are presenting.
As Chris has said, parallax effects are dependent upon the angle of viewing to provide the 3D effect. The effect changes as the angle changes and the effect looks wrong at certain angles. This is not something that can be fixed, only mitigated against.
Please read this article http://cdn.imgtec.com/sdk-documentation/Parallax+Bumpmapping.Whitepaper.pdf - especially 4.2 Disadvantages for a non-N3V explanation of the issue.
As for “refusing to work on issues”, I would be interested to hear your explanation on why you think we would want to purposely deliver anything but the best we can. Lower sales, unhappy customers, poor reviews - these are all things to avoid. I can assure you our motivation is to make Trainz better than ever before and the vast majority of feedback indicates we’re on the right track.
It appears that your distrust of N3V is clouding your judgement and ability to understand the facts we are presenting.
As Chris has said, parallax effects are dependent upon the angle of viewing to provide the 3D effect. The effect changes as the angle changes and the effect looks wrong at certain angles. This is not something that can be fixed, only mitigated against.
Please read this article http://cdn.imgtec.com/sdk-documentation/Parallax+Bumpmapping.Whitepaper.pdf - especially 4.2 Disadvantages for a non-N3V explanation of the issue.
As for “refusing to work on issues”, I would be interested to hear your explanation on why you think we would want to purposely deliver anything but the best we can. Lower sales, unhappy customers, poor reviews - these are all things to avoid. I can assure you our motivation is to make Trainz better than ever before and the vast majority of feedback indicates we’re on the right track.
I mean...
...do i hate to spell it out for ya Tony? These quotes came from people who have indded purchased TRS19 and played it. A substantial group of people are unhappy with the product you've put out, including myself. Even more, you and Windy have basically admitted to leaving very noticeable problems in the game, which says to me you guys don't want to release the best product you guys possible could.
If something as important to the marketing of TRS19 as the PBR/Parallax textures don't work correctly, you've made a mistake. You say you "can't fix them", and that's where i say you guys need to go back and think about whether it's that you can't fix these issues, or if you won't because it would probably require a lot of troubleshooting and code re-writing. It's definitely something that can be fixed; you guys just don't want to sacrifice time to find why PBR/Parallax textures don't work correctly with Trainz's engine.
If TRS19 is the best you can do, then you guys have fairlylow standards. Keep in mind i criticize Trainz not cause i want it to fail, but i want to see it improve. Sadly, it's evident that very little of Trainz has been improved upon.
Maybe I would trust you guys more if you put out a better product than TRS19.
I mean...
...do i hate to spell it out for ya Tony? These quotes came from people who have indded purchased TRS19 and played it. A substantial group of people are unhappy with the product you've put out, including myself. Even more, you and Windy have basically admitted to leaving very noticeable problems in the game, which says to me you guys don't want to release the best product you guys possible could.
If something as important to the marketing of TRS19 as the PBR/Parallax textures don't work correctly, you've made a mistake. You say you "can't fix them", and that's where i say you guys need to go back and think about whether it's that you can't fix these issues, or if you won't because it would probably require a lot of troubleshooting and code re-writing. It's definitely something that can be fixed; you guys just don't want to sacrifice time to find why PBR/Parallax textures don't work correctly with Trainz's engine.
If TRS19 is the best you can do, then you guys have fairlylow standards. Keep in mind i criticize Trainz not cause i want it to fail, but i want to see it improve. Sadly, it's evident that very little of Trainz has been improved upon.
Maybe I would trust you guys more if you put out a better product than TRS19.
I love TRS19 even with the "few" problems I have encountered so you can add me to the other side of your ledger board, or are you only counting the negs in this contest.
lovetrainzloathen3v
New member
Not getting that Swordfish, working fine here buddy.
Mike.
Mike.
I can't speak for your specific case, but generally this means that the route was updated on load, and that the game needs to save out the changes. Once you've saved out the route in the current file format, you can go on with creating as many sessions as you like without having to resave the route each time.
chris
No, i'm aware many people love TRS19. I'm not here to say you're a bad person for liking it: that's ridiculous. I personally just don't believe it's thew "amazing, groundbreaking" new product it was marketed as because of all the problems it has. It's far from perfect.
I've gone on record saying TRS19 is a decent game. It's nothing special, but it's not "bad", i think. There's just a lot about it that flat-out doesn't work. I'd love to see those areas improved upon, but the team working on it don't seem keen on making that happen.
If TRS19 had working PBR/Parallax textures, a better lighting system to accomodate for billboard fauna, RGB values for environment lighting, and just fewer bugs and glitches over all, i'd probably say it's better than T:ANE. But until the problems i, and many others, have with the game are fixed, i'll stick with T:ANE. I feel like i spent $70 on an broken, buggy game, and that's not good.
I had that when I first installed and it turned out my antivirus (Windows Defender) was squatting on every file that was opened, accessed, and had thoughts of opening. After disabling the antivirus, and doing some system housekeeping, I've had excellent performance.
If you expect perfection in any computer program, you'll never find it. No computer program is perfect, including the operating system your machine uses, whether it's Linux, Windows, Mac OSx. All of these have glitches somewhere that are constantly being addressed. That's why we see various new versions, updates, and patches. The same will be with TRS19 or whatever version comes out after that.
Remember the program is early access, meaning it's not in beta, but still has bugs that need fixing. You need to report the bugs in order to get them on the list. Just saying that something is broken, don't work, and saying something in the forums does not get the bugs or issues on the official report where they can be tracked.
They may not all get fixed at once, but they will be addressed at some point. Also keep in mind that fixing one thing may fix another, or worse break something else that needs to be addressed.
As far as the PBX textures and Parallax stuff goes, I'm not pleased with it either and have let that be known not only in the forums here but also in a bug report. The floating ballast and clear gel should not be something that is acceptable.
Is it usable now? Yes it is and is in far better shape than any release we had previously including T:ANE. Now that I've installed TRS19, T:ANE is now collecting dust on my hard disk. I say give them time to get things right.
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I don't expect perfection. I expect minimal large-scale issues. TRS19 has many large-scale issues that have not been addressed. While the game is still in Early Access, that does not excuse the team outright dismissing my criticism simply because "most people are happy" with TRS19. They have stated they have no intention of fixing something as noticeable as texture errors. That's not good in any way. It shows the team is happy with delievering a sub-par product at a high price.
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