Reflections

Vern · Oct 9, 2018

Presumably we have all checked our monitors, as was suggested on other occasions issues with the lighting were raised. But at least we now seem to have an explanation for the problem, but the $64k question is whether N3V acknowledge as such, or shrug their shoulders, blame the content creators for using obsolete techniques or otherwise pass the buck and - critically - admit the fault is theirs to own and fix.

In any event it creates a huge dilemma for those of us route building in TRS2019, if so many assets are affected it is going to be virtually impossible to build a route which doesn't use them.

JAGG · Oct 9, 2018

ZecMurphy said:
...It appears that this may be an issue with the material configuration in these assets; and may have shown up due to a bug fix in TRS19....
Regards

I re-read above mentioned post after thoroughgoing check of my monitor calibration to see if there is same statement in above post on my screen as it was before: reflection issue is not fault of N3V but assets creators creating assets with wrong material configuration namely. Do I understand it well?

pcas1986 · Oct 9, 2018

JAGG said:
I re-read above mentioned post after thoroughgoing check of my monitor calibration to see if there is same statement in above post on my screen as it was before: reflection issue is not fault of N3V but assets creators creating assets with wrong material configuration namely. Do I understand it well?

While its always possible that monitor calibration might be an issue for some, I doubt if it is for all that see the problem. I think it may be more complex.

While making my Blender tutorial for PBX, I recall I had problems getting any of the old gloss materials to work correctly. I initially uploaded one sample asset that was working but then it broke. I later fixed it and uploaded a new version in January. That asset is now broken. I cannot say if it was the fault of any particular service pack.

The problem, at least for FBX and Blender, is that almost no information about textures is included in the FBX file. I cannot say if that is true for Max versions. N3V later amended the mesh metadata format to allow for usage definition of textures however I suspect that only works for PBR materials. I'll try the older m.gloss later today when I have some time.

I think the real problem are the existing legacy IM based assets that use m.gloss and perhaps the m.tbumpgloss materials. If it is a material configuration problem then fixing them without N3V help would be almost impossible.

ZecMurphy · Oct 10, 2018

pcas1986 said:
I think the problem may have manifested itself in TANE SP3. For the last couple of hours I've been trying to fabricate a test asset but I continue to get a missing texture indication - the pink and green boxes. There is a sample asset at my Blender tutorial http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/HowTo/Export_from_Blender_using_FBX#Reflect that I know was working back in January of this year. That sample has the FBX source.

Hi Pcas1986
You appear to be lacking a diffuse texture on this object. All materials except for '.m.notex' MUST have a diffuse texture applied to them. In this case it appears Trainz is substituting the 'placeholder' pink/green checker texture for the missing diffuse texture.

Regards
Zec

philskene · Oct 10, 2018

In that case, Zec, for those of us with the wheel flange issue, the solutionis to change the default pink/green to grey.

pcas1986 · Oct 10, 2018

ZecMurphy said:
Hi Pcas1986
You appear to be lacking a diffuse texture on this object. All materials except for '.m.notex' MUST have a diffuse texture applied to them. In this case it appears Trainz is substituting the 'placeholder' pink/green checker texture for the missing diffuse texture.

Regards
Zec

OK, thanks for the clarification. The Blender section of this page is not correct so I'll update it later.

But I'm still having a few issues trying to find the right combination. This test asset is a 4.6 build in the Early Release of TRS19. It does have an orange coloured diffuse image but is still showing the red/green colours in the shadowed area. It's not reflecting either. I'll continue to experiment today to see if I can find a solution.

normhart · Oct 10, 2018

See the difference?

Look at almost any bell on almost any locomotive. It is pretty obvious.

philskene · Oct 10, 2018

Hi Norm --

Do you have the K&L B&O E27 Consolidation? It's a wonderful model but the only locomotive I have from K&L with green wheels. I'm eager to know whether it's my PC or TRS19 itself. And based on that image above, I've just purchased the Q3.

Phil

JCitron · Oct 10, 2018

philskene said:
Hi Norm --

Do you have the K&L B&O E27 Consolidation? It's a wonderful model but the only locomotive I have from K&L with green wheels. I'm eager to know whether it's my PC or TRS19 itself. And based on that image above, I've just purchased the Q3.

Phil

The moldy wheels are a TRS19 thing. It's being looked at see up in the thread Zec Murphy asked for examples with the kuids.

pcas1986 · Oct 10, 2018

I've played with my test asset some more. I didn't have much luck with an FBX mesh so I reverted to IM. The following pics are all from Asset Preview.

In TANE SP3 the asset looks like this:

It looks a little dark but it is glossy and reflects the environment texture (env_metal). You can see it as the asset rotates.

IN TRS19 (Early Release):

There is no reflection and the texture looks dull.

In TRS19 Beta:

There is some sun reflection but no glossiness to speak of. The environment texture isn't visible.

None of the samples show any green mould. Currently, I don't have a solution for either IM or FBX meshes.

clam1952 · Oct 10, 2018

pcas1986 said:
I've played with my test asset some more. I didn't havemuch luck with an FBX mesh so I reverted to IM. The following pics are all from Asset Preview.

In TANE SP3 the asset looks like this:

It looks a little dark but it is glossy and reflects the environment texture (env_metal). You can see it as the asset rotates.

IN TRS19 (Early Release):

There is no reflection and the texture looks dull.

In TRS19 Beta:

There is some sun reflection but no glossiness to speak of. The environment texture isn't visible.

None of the samples show any green mould. Currently, I don't have a solution for either IM or FBX meshes.

Which is exactly the same as I have found Paul.

normhart · Oct 10, 2018

philskene said:
Hi Norm --

Do you have the K&L B&O E27 Consolidation? It's a wonderful model but the only locomotive I have from K&L with green wheels. I'm eager to know whether it's my PC or TRS19 itself. And based on that image above, I've just purchased the Q3.

Phil

Yes,

I suspect that the green reflections are a symptom. Note the lack of highlights on the locomotives in TRS19.

Perhaps these shots will make a better example of the reflection problem as far as it goes with steam locomotives. TANE on left, TRS on right.

Again note the loss of highlights in TRS19. It is really obvious on the Pacific's domes and the bells on both locomotives.

cascaderailroad · Oct 10, 2018

I think the TS19 screenshots look better, as most steam locos were weathered, and didn't have shiny, highly polished bells, and did have not waxed, washed, polished boilers and domes

RailFan500CA · Oct 10, 2018

But I'm pretty sure that passenger steam locomotives would have at least shiny bells,such as on the NYC Hudson's,the SP's GS class before dieselisation when they pulled the daylight,but freight locomotives would be weathered and not shiny. (But not very weathered like in the 1950's though,just more dirty.) And a USRA light pacific would be passenger locomotive,but it would be a lower priority one.

But if I remember correctly,I did see on some DVD's that the CNR kept there steam locomotives clean until sometime in the 1950's.

normhart · Oct 10, 2018

cascaderailroad said:
I think the TS19 screenshots look better, as most steam locos were weathered, and didn't have shiny, highly polished bells, and did have not waxed, washed, polished boilers and domes

Rationalization. The artists clearly intended that the locomotives appear at least clean and, given that most were not painted with flat paint, at least a bit shiny.

Locomotives were the second most important and expensive assets most railroads owned. They took good care of them and, as well as routine maintenance, they were routinely washed after every run.

pcas1986 · Oct 10, 2018

normhart said:
...The artists clearly intended that the locomotives appear at least clean and, given that most were not painted with flat paint, at least a bit shiny. ...

I agree, although I admit that many UK locos were often very grimy. What we are talking about here is author's intent and, getting back to Dave's original post, I doubt if the author intended green rails.

philskene · Oct 10, 2018

Hi Norm --

Thanks.

I seem to be progressively acquiring a larger and larger roster of K&L locomotives. Are there any others that I should postpone purchasing until the green wheel issue is sorted?

As for the appearance, I'm with the TRS19 supporters. I also find most steam locomotives a shade too dark so I brighten the textures up slightly, thus:

Just a personal preference, mainly because I like to see all the wonderful detail that's in the skin and usually hidden by the almost totally black textures.

Phil

normhart · Oct 11, 2018

You and I have debated locomotive coloration before.

I have not bothered loading all of K&L's locomotives in TRS19 Early Access as I consider it nowhere near ready for prime time.

cascaderailroad · Oct 11, 2018

normhart said:
They took good care of them and, as well as routine maintenance, they were routinely washed after every run.

The PRR maintained their freight locomotives, but steam and diesel freight locos were quickly pushed back into service with no hand polished bells, and no wash nor wax

Let us see some images of those Green reflections

Dinorius_Redundicus · Oct 11, 2018

I have little doubt these errors will be fixed in time. What concerns me more than the bug itself is what it says about the standard of N3V’s quality control. To put out an early release without (apparently) verifying that the legacy texture materials are still rendered correctly is quite staggering. I mean, it’s not exactly a subtle or hidden fault in some unimportant aspect of the program. How was such a fundamental flaw not noticed? I hope the company is asking itself that question as well as looking for the technical fix.

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