My theory of scaling down sounds in model trains.

Would Z scale have the sound so quiet that there would be no sound at all? Inquiring minds want to know:confused::cool:

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No, not with a virtual train sounds headphone system worn by observers in the train room!! No more tinny on board audio devices with my revolutionary good idea!!​
 
In theory if sound amplification was linear this would make sense, but sounds are amplified on an logarithmic scale. As was pointed out above, if we were to scale down the sounds of realistic locomotive engine to that in relationship to the scale size of a model train, many of the sounds would become whispers or imperceptible as the scale becomes smaller. There are somethings that don't scale well and sound is one of them.

The sounds we have in our virtual world are only as good as the original recordings they are derived from. If someone recorded an engine sound, using that example again, at too high a volume or too close to the source, the sound will be clipped due to going beyond the range that the electronics can handle. Clipped sounds are distorted and sound "hot" as they say due to the electronics being unable to handle the range.

Recording good sounds also takes more than just top-end equipment. There are people that go to sound-recording technology school to become recording engineers. This is a very expensive and very, very intensive training program with lots of complicated maths and engineering stuff that goes well beyond what can be explained here.
Well, John, it might be possible to hear better sounds using some type of wearer-position-sensing headset system a person wears while observing various things in a model train room. We could possibly have a virtual reality sound system for the physical train hobby that works similar to sound effects in the Trainz software. What we hear in Trainz during game play is all relative to the Trainz camera point of view.

How about a nifty sound system for the physical scale-model train world that mimics the virtual sounds in Trainz? The observer hears the proper sound effects presented through his headphones according to where he is sitting, facing or standing on the layout. Of course, such gee-wizz sound effects equipment would also have to know the position, direction and speed of moving objects on the layout as trains, vehicles, etc. so as to present the proper sound effects to the human listener pertinent to the specific situation as a train approaching a crossing, for example so the listener would hear the doppler effect as the train passes.
 
Well, John, it might be possible to hear better sounds using some type of wearer-position-sensing headset system a person wears while observing various things in a model train room. We could possibly have a virtual reality sound system for the physical train hobby that works similar to sound effects in the Trainz software. What we hear in Trainz during game play is all relative to the Trainz camera point of view.

How about a nifty sound system for the physical scale-model train world that mimics the virtual sounds in Trainz? The observer hears the proper sound effects presented through his headphones according to where he is sitting, facing or standing on the layout. Of course, such gee-wizz sound effects equipment would also have to know the position, direction and speed of moving objects on the layout as trains, vehicles, etc. so as to present the proper sound effects to the human listener pertinent to the specific situation as a train approaching a crossing, for example so the listener would hear the doppler effect as the train passes.

True having the playback equipment to hear real sounds when viewing various scaled equipment is doable, but top-quality sound sources and the playback equipment is needed to produce good sounds. A sound-engineer is required to produce the best-quality sounds, and excellent recordings require huge amounts of disk space. There's nothing worse than hearing something that sounds like it was recorded on to a cassette recorder with a 1/8-inch microphone. With a triggered environment, which I think you are eluding to here, some electronics are needed as well to get this to work properly. The equipment could be triggered by photo-optical sensors nearby so that if someone viewing the layout enters into an area, the dogs bark, birds, sing, and other sounds kick in.

The one thing that needs to be resolved is repetition and stop-start triggering. This is very annoying even in the virtual world. Walking into a room then suddenly hearing typewriters, but hearing nothing a meter away in the hallway is annoying. This aspect of the virtual world has always annoyed me. The triggers are just switches, just like you would need for your noisy layout. These switches will turn on when someone is in close proximity and the sounds will start, play then stop, or repeat as long as the person is in the vicinity to turn on the loop.

Disney and other amusement park operators already do something like this, which is what made me think of the room with typewriters, though that's not exactly what was in the diorama.

I can picture the electronics behind this, the program with a few loopy-loops for a specified time, and the A/D interface, but I haven't built a circuit since my electronic tech-school days back in the early to mid-1980s and have no idea how to put it all together anymore. :)
 
Well, John for the train approaching the crossing, there is no need to repeat this sound over and over again since the electronics in my conceptual audio system should know exactly where the train is and where the headphone wearer is at all times. I envision a system of position detection based upon wireless GPS technology which can track the whereabouts of objects on the layout as well as human headset wearers.
The entire train building would be the GLOBAL aspect of my scaled-down global positioning system. Various "satellites", electronics devices, mimicking real-world GPS satellites, positioned stationary, inside the building would function similar to real-world GPS satellites orbiting the earth. My same "hobby scale GPS system" would also navigate the scale-model autonomous trains and road vehicles according to strict schedules on my conceptual futuristic layout as well. I want to eliminate as much physical sensors and hardwiring as possible. Boy, I am thinking well outside the hobby technology box here.

Yes, it would take some smart person to invent what I alluding to here. I supposed the sound system in Trainz is triggered too. If my Trainz free-roaming camera is parked at a RR crossing, I will hear the train approach and leave following the doppler effect. This sound sequence will only occur once and not repeatedly after the train passes and is gone. If the headphone wearer is physically walking around the train layout and following the train's movements, he might hear a steady locomotive sound in that case unless the engine is changing speed in which case the headset wearer might hear air brakes, engine revving, turbocharger whine, coupler slack noise, etc. What I am alluding to is situational: how the layout is behaving with respect to headset wearers standing nearby.

Now, another object like a barking dog, could repeat occasionally as long as the headset wearer is standing near it and hasn't moved to another part of the layout.

And certainly, real train recordings could be used but I also thought of computer-generated synthesized sounds as well as on a music keyboard or a Moog synthesizer.

How realistic can a synthesized engine sound be made?
 
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I've heard mixed results of synthesized sounds. This is all in the realm of the artist's hand as he/she adjusts the various sound inputs, waveform shapes and durations.

No Trainz sounds are not triggered, but can be. They work through proximity within a specified radius, meaning they are playing all the time but are only heard when in range. This is an old method for producing sounds, which is still used today in many games. In the old days up through TRS2006, we had railroad crossings that would ring continuously. They looked nice for the times, but the bells just rang and the lights flashed. It wasn't until some during the TRS2004 years that people such as Cloaked Ghost and a bit later Clem and his wife (BNSF50) made the crossings we use today. Prior to that, we had crossings, but added the lights separately.

The other issue too was a bug that caused the sounds to be heard all over the route. With more than a single crossing on a route, this made for quite some noise. Computer sound cards and programs have a limit as to how many sounds can be played back at once. The hardware is better than it was, but there's still a limitation, and this could eventually impact performance.

Speaking of train sounds, check out this series at The Trolley Dodger:

https://thetrolleydodger.com/2018/09/24/william-a-steventons-railroad-record-club/

https://thetrolleydodger.com/2018/09/

The whole blog is really nice too with some really, really nice pics. This month in particular has an O-scale layout featured in one of the articles.

Anyway Doppler effect is produced by the sound producing object getting closer to the person listening. This can happen automatically, but requires the sound source to travel with the object rather than through the speakers. In a virtual environment, this is possible because the sound-producer is in fact moving. In the model world, this would have to be emulated if you're using fixed, positional speakers, but that would require some complex acoustic engineering work to get that right.
 
Well, John for the train approaching the crossing, there is no need to repeat this sound over and over again since the electronics in my conceptual audio system should know exactly where the train is and where the headphone wearer is at all times. I envision a system of position detection based upon wireless GPS technology which can track the whereabouts of objects on the layout as well as human headset wearers.
The entire train building would be the GLOBAL aspect of my scaled-down global positioning system. Various "satellites", electronics devices, mimicking real-world GPS satellites, positioned stationary, inside the building would function similar to real-world GPS satellites orbiting the earth. My same "hobby scale GPS system" would also navigate the scale-model autonomous trains and road vehicles according to strict schedules on my conceptual futuristic layout as well. I want to eliminate as much physical sensors and hardwiring as possible. Boy, I am thinking well outside the hobby technology box here.

Yes, it would take some smart person to invent what I alluding to here. I supposed the sound system in Trainz is triggered too. If my Trainz free-roaming camera is parked at a RR crossing, I will hear the train approach and leave following the doppler effect. This sound sequence will only occur once and not repeatedly after the train passes and is gone. If the headphone wearer is physically walking around the train layout and following the train's movements, he might hear a steady locomotive sound in that case unless the engine is changing speed in which case the headset wearer might hear air brakes, engine revving, turbocharger whine, coupler slack noise, etc. What I am alluding to is situational: how the layout is behaving with respect to headset wearers standing nearby.

Now, another object like a barking dog, could repeat occasionally as long as the headset wearer is standing near it and hasn't moved to another part of the layout.

And certainly, real train recordings could be used but I also thought of computer-generated synthesized sounds as well as on a music keyboard or a Moog synthesizer.

How realistic can a synthesized engine sound be made?


Of course, I want surround sound 5.1 (or 7.1) as well. Something that provides the listener with a sense of sound direction. If the listener is standing facing the grade crossing, will the train approaching from the right sound like it is approaching from the right?
 
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I was thinking about something simple to mimic the doppler effect for a listening headset wearer standing track side. As the train approaches the headphone wearer, the engine sound, as heard through the headset, would have a high pitch and as the train goes away from the person wearing the headset, the train sound would gradually get lower in pitch. This could simply be done by varying the audio frequency in accordance to (in sync with) the movement of the train just like speeding a phonograph record up and slowing it down to vary or bend the pitch of the music. If the headset wearer walks along the moving train at the same relative speed, the perceived pitch would be more or less constant. The computer would calculate the train speed and heading relative to where the headset wearer stands to generate the appropriate sound effect.

In the scale-model world we try to FAKE things cleverly to get realistic prototypical effects but not always as perfectly as we would like. John, you have to think like a special effects artist in a Hollywood movie studio!! Hollywood has done a lot of things to make the film seem compelling, believable, to the casual viewer. I'm romancing the notion of bringing the magic of Hollywood special effects to the train hobby.

Trainz and physical model trains are all about creating illusions to casual observers. Creating illusions and perceptions: that's what a stage magician is all about. It's the art, science and technology of make-believe.
 
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I have never had any difficulty with huge model railroad club layouts, and model train conventions, having unrealistic train sounds ... They all sounded absolutely wonderfully real. I have even seen sound box's installed around the layout where children can press a button to make sounds. I even have a MRC Sound Station, where I can press a button and make the proper sounds

I think you are asking for a bit too much
GPS, surround sound 5.1 (or 7.1), heard by naked human ears ... (WTF is that, a brutalized coined phase, akin to "seen through the naked eye") ? I fancy might even sense the direction the wearer's head is facing. Something like audio virtual reality, virtual train sounds headphone system worn by observers in the train room, I'm romancing the notion of bringing the magic of Hollywood special effects to the train hobby, a hobby scale GPS system, Yes, I have an Texas-size imagination like Walt Disney. My fantasy is to Disneylandize model trains, I'm including asking questions and getting feedback from my concepts presented here on Trainz as part of my research.
... And to whom precisely, or to what Company, are these absurd outlandish research, concepts, and recommendations of sound systems to be directed toward ? I can see none of this ever happening, ever, not even in our great great grandchildren's lifetimes. The whole thread topic is: I'm looking for the precise word ... Cockamamie, Silly or Useless

Last time I checked, the whole model railroad industry is slowly going out of business, as train convention vendors complain that they haven't sold anything, or enough to pay for the table rental space fee ... People come, and pick it up, smudge it with sticky fingerprints, drop it, and walk away
 
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You seem to be forgetting that Trainz is a simulator..not a scale model.. Every thing is modeled full size and then possibly scaled to become these model railway layouts.

The sound attenuation over distance is fixed in the game so all we can do is adjust the level of the sound files to suit our perception of what is right at the time. There's no real need to think about this in such a complicated manner. I am assuming that the model layouts have the right attenuation for distance but maybe not????

I do agree that some sounds dominate instead of blending into the background sounds. That's when we use Audacity or Wavepad.

And by the way -3dB is the half power level of a sound not -10dB, even though, to some, -10dB may seem half as loud; it's only a perception..... Believe it or not.. it's very hard to hear a 3dB difference in level.
 
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Let's generate black holes beneath our layouts so the trains weigh 1/22.5 of the real things

Hmm, wormhole iportals- are you listening, digitrax?
 
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Not a Company, private individuals with inventive minds. I will never be able to afford what I fancy but the mere thought is fun anyway. Many of my ideas are not even on the market. The Ford Model T wasn't even on the market until somebody thought about it in their sleep, designed it, built a working prototype of it and manufactured it. I would have to have the wealth of Bill Gates to build the BEST physical model train layout in the entire world. I would have to contract master engineers, master machinists, master carpenters, doctorates in electronics and architects and so forth.

More likely a "NASA grade" railroad simulator in the future will be designed and built by somebody that looks, acts and sounds so much like the real world it's not even funny. N3V may do it. Somebody else may beat them to the punch. Somebody will also have to ensure advanced computer hardware is on the market to support it.
 
I fancy but the mere thought is fun anyway. I would have to have the wealth of Bill Gates to build the BEST physical model train layout in the entire world. I would have to contract master engineers, master machinists, master carpenters, doctorates in electronics and architects and so forth.

More likely a "NASA grade" railroad simulator in the future will be designed and built by somebody that looks, acts and sounds so much like the real world.

If I had 3 wish's ...

1) You cannot wish for rich's or for personal gain
2) you can not wish for the demise, nor re-creation on another being
3) You can not wish for more wish's

1) I would wish for the eradication of all pests and parasites (mosquitoes attribute to 650,000 deaths per year)
2) I would wish that a brand new fuel source was invented, such as burning water (HHO2) using the hydrogen as a new fuel source
3) I would wish that humans no longer had pain receptors, nor any physical nor mental disease's

What would you wish for ... a brand new choo choo ?
 
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Ok, Cascade, too much time, money, energy and human resources should not be dumped into mere entertainment as there are more pressing things like healthcare and teaching children good old-fashioned manners in this world but Hollywood is guilty of squandering billions each year on fancy make-believe stuff. Why? It sells. People buy it.

Trainz and model trains are merely both forms of entertainment: toys, period.

A billionaire's devoting his wealth to curing cancer would be a much more noble effort indeed. I can go to my local railroad tracks a half mile away anytime to hear genuine diesel engine sounds, genuine doppler effect, the whole enchilada: no fancy audio technology or much money needed. It's the real deal, not fake. The UP railroad, a multi-billion dollar entity, is providing all these sounds for the trackside public to hear without charging any admission. Can't beat that with a tin whistle! ;)
 
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I like recording sound effects of trains too at Cassandra Pa RR Overlook park, where it is a straight track, on a + 1.00% grade, with no Horseshoe Curve obnoxious flange squeal ... and at Brickyard RR crossing west of Altoona on a +1.25% grade ... both have real nice sound effects in the middle of nowhere, without road traffic noise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eY_mCmOsf8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RShjPAjz9dw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-VrtChSYns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Tojvuuk1I

Why even scale down the sound of trains ?

I want to listen to them at 120 Db, so loud that you can feel the vibrations in your chest, while wearing airport hearing protective earmuffs

These sound perfectly fine while watching model trains, on a 300 Watt Pioneer SX1010 stereo reciever with six 15" woofers

I scale nothing down ... full blast ... annoy the neighbors
 
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