"Model" routes vs "Prototype"

lrjanzen

New member
New here after long (2008) absences. If this belongs in a different forum please let me know and if this has already been covered also let me know and point me to the discussion.

I have noticed that there seems to be two general categories of route types. Those that are based on model railroad type layouts. Modeling models if you will and the larger "realistic" (fictional or real) that can run for many scale miles. I was wondering wht is it that draws creators to each type? More of a philosophical question. I am trying to wrap my head around each before delving into creating a layout. I also noticed that there is now a modular type of layout similar to the the ntrak that I used to dabble in when I was doing physical layouts.
 
Different people with different interests.

Though I love prototypical routes, a lot of people will give up before they ever get a decent sizes route. The model railroads are a lot smaller so a project is finished a lot faster, making it easier to stay motivated till the end.

I like both, but (like many) am struggling to ever finish a prototypical route (even while I scaled down the landscape to 75% of the actual size and skipped many miles of boring fields already).

Nobody keeps you from having multiple projects; do both! :D
 
I commenced using TRS2004 constructing a route in Nidderdale as that area had great memories for me as a youngster, over time it has developed into a greater area of the south western section of North Yorkshire. My interest revolves about gathering historical information of the NER & LNER railway company's in addition to running the timetable of the early 1900's. I am not even halfway through adding all the scheduled movements, which is centered on Harrogate, currently the day commences at 5.30 am and continues all day.
My next step is to rebuild using TRS19 with a new set of tiles created with TranzDem. This will allow me to more realistically replicate the grades.
Also just to note when building a route of this type it is real scale, real time, if a consist timetable schedule is 35 mins then it takes 35 mins.
This type of route construction and scheduling stimulates, in the words of the famous detective, Poirot, little grey cells.
 
As others have pointed out, different people have different interests.

I have never attempted to build a "model" layout. I think that it would require different skills and a different level of creativity (to fit all that activity into a very small space and not make it look like it is a small space).

Skills and creativity are also needed in "route" layouts but they require a lot more patience and perseverance simply because they are much bigger and usually take a lot longer. It is easy to lose interest and give up.

Users who download and drive layouts also have different interests. With model layouts the "action" is much more intense - with only minutes between loading logs and the sawmill and unloading them at the jetty, for example. For a real "prototypical" route it can be hours (or even days) of travel between loading and unloading. Patience and perseverance can be necessities here too.

It often come down to a choice between realism on one side and practicality on the other.
 
Hi Malc --

The wonderful thing about Trainz is that I can say that I completely disagree with "I do prototype as it gives you so much more scope than a model version."

I do model railroads because it gives me much more scope than prototype routes. I can do structures like bridges, track layouts and gradients that would never be contemplated or could be justified in real life. I can squeeze industries into unbelievable tight spaces. I can provide grand locomotive depots that are wasted on one or two small switching locomotives.

Prototype routes are constrained by reality; model layouts are only constrained by imagination.

Phil
 
Prototype routes are constrained by reality; model layouts are only constrained by imagination.

Well said.

For some of us though, the "constraint of reality" is a challenge. I find fictional routes less interesting to create and prefer to take a set of track plans for an historical (and preferably now closed or lifted) railway and recreate it as it would have looked back in its operational days, within the limitations of the available assets.
 
I'm with Phil. I'm working on both at the moment. The fictional prototypical route I started back in at least 2003 and I'll probably never finish. The model route lets me see the light at the end of the tunnel and is more fun and less tedious. Trainz lets us do both, either or just drive for those that prefer. That's the real beauty of this sim.:Y:
 
I do prototype routes based on now decommissioned NSW lines so they aren't forgotten like the government seems to have done.
PG
 
I'm with Phil. I'm working on both at the moment. The fictional prototypical route I started back in at least 2003 and I'll probably never finish. The model route lets me see the light at the end of the tunnel and is more fun and less tedious. Trainz lets us do both, either or just drive for those that prefer. That's the real beauty of this sim.:Y:

Well said. I have a little bit of both in the works as well. My fictional December 2003 route has been carried along through every Trainz version thus far and has survived mostly intact over the years. Right now it's going through a bit of "a ravelment" as the big French harpsichord builders said as they rebuilt the much older instruments. I laugh and chuckle at my bad landscaping and track laying in the oldest sections while I go through the process of updating those parts to my newer standard. If we ever get to TRS2030 and I'm still around then and using the program, I'll probably laugh at this standard then. :)

I also have some prototypes in the works, though mostly freelanced because I'm putting in long gone branches and industries that have long disappeared from the scene, and I also have some fictional routes based on TransDem-generated topographic map routes where I've placed routes that never existed but could with a little bit of surveying. This is very challenging because I try to keep roads and other stuff intact while fitting in the rail line at the same time. The outcome is quite nice in those parts I've completed.

And finally I've been dabbling at one of those model railroads created from a plan book. The Rocky Point layout always fascinated me when I got the book many years ago. I almost built this layout in plaster and plywood and it's a good thing I didn't. What I've found is the author has used some artistic license to squeeze stuff into a space that's totally impossible. I ended up scaling up the route a bit because there was no way a normal sized human could fit in the aisle way between the parts of the layout if it remained at the scaling in the book. This was very enlightening and this has been a fun project.

But this is the fun part of a very versatile program. If I get stuck and burned out working on one route, I'll switch to another, or just go off and drive some other routes to rebuild my stamina to go back and build some more.
 
I like long, prototypical routes, but, as has been said here, doing Model Trainz has it's points, too. I like to ride in the cab and watch the scenery go by, others prefer to watch the trains from outside. It's just whatever sparks your interest.
 
I like to modify an existing large route so that I can act as the despatcher, controlling a number of consists.
I don't enjoy driving as it puts me to sleep.
Cheers,
Mike
 
I enjoy both although model layouts can be quite challenging when you are used to having the DEM (terrain) and mapping data all laid out in front of you.

There are a couple of sub categories I will throw in the mix...

First is the scaled up miniature railway, as in my recent "Water Of Coate" contribution. This combines the compact proportions of the model layout but with (maybe) more scope for a longer run.

Second is the fictional prototype - for example my Highland Link, or perhaps a railway planned but never built or maybe just a railway running through nice scenery instead of a road. This allows considerably more freedom when it comes to laying out infrastructure or facilities as no-one is going to criticise a siding 50ft shorter than it should be, etc., as it never existed in real life!
 
I also enjoy both. For my virtual model railways, I follow my own rules (as I've probably said more than once!) and try to replicate one which I could have built in my early days of railway modelling - around 55 years ago - if I had at that time had sufficient space , time and money - for example to use a room around thirty feet square (one Trainz baseboard in 1:76 scale) , which at the time was about the usable area of the loft above my then bungalow.

For a prototype route, I began creating the Norfolk (UK) branch line from Heacham to Wells-next-the-Sea. This was in TS2010 and of course was overtaken by later versions of Trainz. It is not yet finished - although several of the stations are detailed.

I find that a virtual model railway on one baseboard can probably be more-or-less finished, and well detailed, before the next version of Trainz comes along.

Ray
 
I'm in the (almost) all of the above camp. I did a detailed to-scale layout of the Tampa Rockport/Mosaic area. It's relatively small, only about 2x2 miles. There are five trains moving stuff around - repeatedly. But at the Northern and Southern ends there are "off stage" areas just like used on physical model RRs. Just plain baseboard with return loops and some loading/unloading.

Since my main interest is setting up complex AI running, I've taken to downloading Other People's Routes. I spent a lot of time with Dinorius-Redunicus' Kauai. In the real world, Kauai has no railroads. Dino TransDem'd Kauai and laid tracks where there could have been tracks. I added a lot of industries (Damn, paved paradise and put in a parking lot) and have about a dozen trains traversing a 25 mile stretch of track.

But it's never enough. Grain facilities look great, but wheat doesn't grow in Kauia. Or does it? Some of my Kauaian entrepreneurs realized that GMO wheat will grow there! Time to raze some of the abandoned sugar fields, plant wheat, tear down the old sugar mill, build a new grain facility, lay some connecting track, etc etc etc. Who knows, someday someone may even discover coal or oil in that currently empty Northwest portion of the Island.

As philskene said: model layouts are only constrained by imagination
 
Interesting input. I live in New England and have an interest in the Industrial Revolution. The old textile mills in the area fascinate me. I even lived in one of the first large scale mills in the country (Slatersville Mill) that has been turned into apartments! I was thinking about a "Semi-Prototypical-Semi-Freelance-Model". :eek: I am more interested in simulating the operations than an exact replica. Laying out track to connect the textile mills to the coast for the importation of cotton and dyes and the export of textiles. And lets not forget the machine tool industry of New England. We also had the ALCO shops down in Providence. All of this within 25 miles of where I live now (Foxboro). I was thinking about an extensible model layout. The Kickstarter route has a good feel for me. Although I have no idea what the scale is for that layout. I was thinking about starting with a simple route that goes from a port to a mill on the river. with about a 30 min run. I feel that with virtual railroads actual distance becomes irrelevant. You CAN build a route that will run real time from DC to Miami. I think I saw one in the DLS. Impressive. I don't have the kind of time to drive that kind of route, let alone build it. For me each session should be about an hour. I figure shuffle a few cars at the port and take a mixed consist up to a mill with a 30 min run through the New England country side. That should get me started and add more later. Base the rolling stock on local road operationg at the turn of the 19th century to the 30s when the mills started to decline.

Couple of quick questions:
Does it matter what "scale" to use when starting the route? Given That time (60 min session) is the driving factor, I can't see it would make a difference. But I may be missing something.

Should I build in TANE or TSR19?. I have a new gaming computer with full TSR19 performance specs.

I just want to thank ahead of time all those creators who's original ideas and concepts I will so shamelessly copy...;)
 
When I discovered Trainz, which wasn't until ver12, I was elated that I could finally expand beyond my basement walls. No more space restrictions for me.

I understand the "never really finish my big route" responses, but when I was modelling in my basement I never "really finished" that layout either. Please, show me a model railroader who isn't always tinkering with something on his Basement route, or adding something new to it.

If anything, a computer program like Trainz gives you something your basement never could - the chance to finish that route and then build another without having to dismantle/modify the first one. That and unlimited space.
 
Interesting input. I live in New England and have an interest in the Industrial Revolution. The old textile mills in the area fascinate me. I even lived in one of the first large scale mills in the country (Slatersville Mill) that has been turned into apartments! I was thinking about a "Semi-Prototypical-Semi-Freelance-Model". :eek: I am more interested in simulating the operations than an exact replica. Laying out track to connect the textile mills to the coast for the importation of cotton and dyes and the export of textiles. And lets not forget the machine tool industry of New England. We also had the ALCO shops down in Providence. All of this within 25 miles of where I live now (Foxboro). I was thinking about an extensible model layout. The Kickstarter route has a good feel for me. Although I have no idea what the scale is for that layout. I was thinking about starting with a simple route that goes from a port to a mill on the river. with about a 30 min run. I feel that with virtual railroads actual distance becomes irrelevant. You CAN build a route that will run real time from DC to Miami. I think I saw one in the DLS. Impressive. I don't have the kind of time to drive that kind of route, let alone build it. For me each session should be about an hour. I figure shuffle a few cars at the port and take a mixed consist up to a mill with a 30 min run through the New England country side. That should get me started and add more later. Base the rolling stock on local road operationg at the turn of the 19th century to the 30s when the mills started to decline.

Couple of quick questions:
Does it matter what "scale" to use when starting the route? Given That time (60 min session) is the driving factor, I can't see it would make a difference. But I may be missing something.

Should I build in TANE or TSR19?. I have a new gaming computer with full TSR19 performance specs.

I just want to thank ahead of time all those creators who's original ideas and concepts I will so shamelessly copy...;)

It doesn't matter which scale you use because the railroad will still be at real-scale. What that scale does is change your rulers if you are building a model railroad. Personally I have never used anything but real-scale from the get-go for that reason. In addition I need to mention that it's best to keep the measurements in meters by default because even though you are measuring stuff in feet and inches, the grid is 10 meters by default. I found this out the hard way back in my early TRS2004 days as I built my route, I was measuring grid squares in feet, and ended up with some really, really high hills and unwanted steep grades. So in the end keep things default and work around them. It's a lot easier in the long run.

I would recommend building in T:ANE at the moment only because TRS19 is still in beta. The reason is a beta (testing) version can have major changes to it, which may make your files incompatible and all your hard work for naught. This isn't to say you can't bring your route into TRS19 later on, or play around with your in-progress route in that version, but I would keep all major work out of that version for now. Perhaps I'm erring on the side of caution, but I've run into this problem in the past - got stung back with TRS2009 and learned the hard way!

Anyway, welcome fellow New Englander. :) I live up in Haverhill, MA on the other side of the state up in the Merrimack Valley. The mills up here followed shortly after Waltham, and Waltham's mills were based on those in Slatersville. Haverhill's main products were once bricks and then later shoes, and other leather-related products while the rest of the Merrimack Valley was all about textiles. Lawrence and Lowell were all textiles from the get go, and are covered with power canals and once had a spiderweb of rail sidings serving the mills. Today, Lowell is in better shape with its tourists, UMass campus, and restored mills made into apartments, and small businesses. Sadly, Lawrence didn't fare so well, though, what was once the world's largest worsting mill, the Wood Mills, has become Sal's Riverwalk office complex. The rest of the city, sadly, is trashed and the former M&L branch originally built in 1842 has been abandoned as is all service in North Lawrence.

But, getting back to topic. My Enfield and Eastern fictional route, the one I started back in December 2003, is exactly the theme you are talking about. The mills in Enfield once used the Enfield River to transport goods to Eastport. As the number of mills increased, it became impossible to transport goods because the mills would draw off water to power their machinery, which left the water levels too low to transport the goods. Strikes and turf wars broke out between the mill owners and the riverboat operators. To get around this, a railroad was eventually built between the namesake cities. This is based on some historical info about the Blackstone Canal.

The line eventually became yet another subsidiary of the nearby Boston and Maine, which built a competing mainline. The E&E river line survived as a secondary freight line while the B&M's mainline became a commuter route, but typical of Guilford the line became a trash pit and was run completely down. My route is set somewhere in the modern times after Guilford ran the line to the ground and a small company bought up the line to run it. Today they have become the designated operator of other lines, and have increased their business... This is the gist of it, but there's a more extensive back history for the route.

Anyway. This is how addicting Trainz is and there's so much that can be done that no one can really say they're bored with the program.
 
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thx John
I was up in Lowell today at the park doing some scouting to get a feel for the area and see the mills. I never realized they had a part or the Bootts mill that was actually running! what a racket. I took a ride on the trolley also. very interesting. I really recommend the place for anyone who has an interest in the American Industrial Revolution to visit the place.

I was thinking along the lines that John had mentioned. I will probably go with some prototype B&M rolling stock and freelance the terrain. That leads me to a question. I did a google search and search here on the forum. I dis not see a way to insert a new baseboard in the middle of existing boards. I was thinking about laying out one board as a simple port (Boston) and a second with a nice mill on it. with a basic board or two between for countryside driving. As I get time I would like to expand the space between as I add more country or industry. Ideally I would like to build the board(s) then slide in the finished work onto the master layout like ntrack. Failing in that I could just insert a new blank board and work on it in the master. If there is a tutorial about this a link would be great.
 
thx John
I was up in Lowell today at the park doing some scouting to get a feel for the area and see the mills. I never realized they had a part or the Bootts mill that was actually running! what a racket. I took a ride on the trolley also. very interesting. I really recommend the place for anyone who has an interest in the American Industrial Revolution to visit the place.

I was thinking along the lines that John had mentioned. I will probably go with some prototype B&M rolling stock and freelance the terrain. That leads me to a question. I did a google search and search here on the forum. I dis not see a way to insert a new baseboard in the middle of existing boards. I was thinking about laying out one board as a simple port (Boston) and a second with a nice mill on it. with a basic board or two between for countryside driving. As I get time I would like to expand the space between as I add more country or industry. Ideally I would like to build the board(s) then slide in the finished work onto the master layout like ntrack. Failing in that I could just insert a new blank board and work on it in the master. If there is a tutorial about this a link would be great.

Lowell is a neat city. I worked up there off Middlesex Street from 1982 to 1987 in what's now a Thai church. Where the building is now, used to be part of a larger freight yard, and to the left was a roundhouse and car shop. The Middlesex Canal actually started at that point on the Merrimack and ran down to Mystic Lakes where the boats would then head down the Mystic River to Boston Harbor.

When I worked up there, the old railroad lines were still in use as a railroad branch by the B&M. One day I had some business to tend to up on Market Street and where the static B&M steam locomotive and coach are today, was a short train of perhaps 3 boxcars and a small SW9. Unfortunately today the connection to the mainline has been severed and paved over, thanks to Pan Am Railways.

Speaking of the steam locomotive.... A former piano student of mine worked for the B&M, after coming from the Santa Fe, as a carpenter and rebuilt the cab of that locomotive. He has a picture of himself standing next to the locomotive. The talk turned from music to trains for the rest of the lesson!

It's funny in all the years, including in 2009-2010 when I was at UMass-Lowell as a music student, I never rode the trolley. I must do that some day. The Boot Mills exhibit sounds great. I remember when they were building that. Sadly though, there's a bunch of mills that were knocked down around that area and down along Market Street along the canal. I don't know when those mills came down, but I remember them still there in the 80s.

Sadly you can't insert a baseboard directly. Oh how many times we've asked, but I guess it's too complicated to implement that in the program code. What you'll need to do is clone the route twice. Call one part A. delete the parts that would belong to part B. Insert your baseboards and save A. Open up B and delete the parts that would be part A.

When all is trimmed in both routes, you can then merge them together. The reason for cloning the original route twice is in case something gets hosed, you'll still have the original.
 
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